KGB Hijacks Flight to Arrest Journalist.

[Shalcker]

You can't associate "greater good" and dictator unless you are one of those benefiting from said dictator.

You certainly can.

Removal of dictator doesn't automatically means things getting better. Dictators, like any human, are not free from "greater good" considerations themselves either - they can just think of themselves as more capable of achieving that "greater good" then alternatives, which seems to be the case with Lukashenko.

Paternalism practiced by him isn't inherently evil.

[Specialka]

You certainly can.

Removal of dictator doesn't automatically means things getting better. Dictators, like any human, are not free from "greater good" considerations themselves either - they can just think of themselves as more capable of achieving that "greater good" then alternatives, which seems to be the case with Lukashenko.

Paternalism practiced by him isn't inherently evil.

Because you have your opinion does not make it wrong, you know. But I am not surprised as you defend a dictator like Putin. As I said before, your sense of morality is broken and you should work on fixing it.

[Shalcker]

Because you have your opinion does not make it wrong, you know. But I am not surprised as you defend a dictator like Putin. As I said before, your sense of morality is broken and you should work on fixing it.

Why would i? I think diversity of opinions - including moral ones - is strength.

And so does having functional dictatorial alternatives to failing democratic regimes.

Different challenges might require different approaches. Societal progress doesn't have to be straight line - it can spiral to more or less democracy as situation changes.

Also, i do not equate "understanding" with "defending".

[Specialka]

Why would i? I think diversity of opinions - including moral ones - is strength.

And so does having functional dictatorial alternatives to failing democratic regimes.

Different challenges might require different approaches. Societal progress doesn't have to be straight line - it can spiral to more or less democracy as situation changes.

Also, i do not equate "understanding" with "defending".

So do I but you still lean too much on the defending side.

[postman1782]

Allegedly... Careful with your accusations here, people have been infracted for less.

It is literally in his posting history, making excuses for why Putin has assassinated journalists and dissenters. Especially with the attempted assassination of Skripal or whatever his name is, twice.

[Shalcker]

So do I but you still lean too much on the defending side.

I see no utility for myself in condemning them most of the time.

Even if i'm supportive of protesters (i follow some Russian oppositional channels that tried to help as they happened), me condemning Lukashenko isn't going to change him. Once he decided that he wasn't going to repeat Ukraine and police was on his side and given carte blanche it was pretty much over for them.

So all i have left is to reflect (some) Russian attitudes toward Belarus, shaped by events as i see them, and imagine ways in which situation can change for the better... and EU support to opposition or sanctions aren't going to do that - i see those as European performance for European audiences that makes things worse.

[Specialka]

I see no utility for myself in condemning them most of the time.

Even if i'm supportive of protesters (i follow some Russian oppositional channels that tried to help as they happened), me condemning Lukashenko isn't going to change him. Once he decided that he wasn't going to repeat Ukraine and police was on his side and given carte blanche it was pretty much over for them.

So all i have left is to reflect (some) Russian attitudes toward Belarus, shaped by events as i see them, and imagine ways in which situation can change for the better... and EU support to opposition or sanctions aren't going to do that - i see those as European performance for European audiences that makes things worse.

Doing nothing = defending.

[Shalcker]

Doing nothing = defending.

You keep clinging to approaches that no longer work. "To do 'something'" regardless of outcome.

Why would you cheer for things getting progressively worse with every step?

Quite predictably worse at that.

[Specialka]

You keep clinging to approaches that no longer work. "To do 'something'" regardless of outcome.

Why would you cheer for things getting progressively worse with every step?

Quite predictably worse at that.

Because doing nothing is better ? Doing nothing means things won't change for better or worse. You just lost hope, then you just need to get out of the way.

[Slant]

It is literally in his posting history, making excuses for why Putin has assassinated journalists and dissenters. Especially with the attempted assassination of Skripal or whatever his name is, twice.

All I'm saying is he and his viewpoint is protected here.

[Shalcker]

Because doing nothing is better ?

How exactly is "actively making things worse" - with quite predictable backlash making things worse in another way in turn - better then doing nothing?

Doing nothing means things won't change for better or worse.

Not true. Your actions aren't the only driving force in the universe.

You just lost hope, then you just need to get out of the way.

I have a lot of hope for other approaches that involve engagement rather then isolation.

Obviously they aren't all-powerful like many people thought before 2014; still, they produce better outcomes then alternatives.

[Specialka]

How exactly is "actively making things worse" - with quite predictable backlash making things worse in another way in turn - better then doing nothing?

Not true. Your actions aren't the only driving force in the universe.

I have a lot of hope for other approaches that involve engagement rather then isolation.

Obviously they aren't all-powerful like many people thought before 2014; still, they produce better outcomes then alternatives.

You do realize that for instance, when the French Revolution happened, there was Terror and dictatorship for quite a while then we moved to an Empire before moving to a Republic, etc...

Sometimes, before making things better, you have to make them worse.

[Shalcker]

You do realize that for instance, when the French Revolution happened, there was Terror and dictatorship for quite a while then we moved to an Empire before moving to a Republic, etc...

Sometimes, before making things better, you have to make them worse.

Are you for accelerationism too then? Got to make capitalism worse to force things to be better later?

Back to Belarus as per topic, there doesn't seem to be enough inner powers interested in change to do it in revolutionary way. EU does not inflict pressure that could cause actual collapse, and it isn't obvious if you actually could build up enough of it unless you got Russian cooperation.

And his non-fall will embolden other dictators to copy from his example.

[Mayhem]

Are you for accelerationism too then? Got to make capitalism worse to force things to be better later?

Back to Belarus as per topic, there doesn't seem to be enough inner powers interested in change to do it in revolutionary way. EU does not inflict pressure that could cause actual collapse, and it isn't obvious if you actually could build up enough of it unless you got Russian cooperation.

And his non-fall will embolden other dictators to copy from his example.

Yeah, Putin will back other dictators too, good guess.

[Shalcker]

Yeah, Putin will back other dictators too, good guess.

Either Russia or China. If you don't take that market because of ideological differences others will.

Fall of dictator like Lukashenko - even to nominally pro-democratic protesters decrying electoral fraud - doesn't automatically create democracy either.

[Gaaz]

So we're mixing sports analogies today? To stay consistent, this would be "stay in the clubhouse" or "stay in the dugout." Baseball doesn't have sidelines, they have foul lines. Doesn't really sound like you played baseball.

Also, no one humiliated him. Gaaz didn't link a single source, posted a picture from an unknown place, claimed there were videos of cash being delivered to dissidents from the US gov't, claimed that the reason he can't find a source is because there's a giant conspiracy, tried to equivocate speeches with literally having a puppet as president, then tried to blame it all on the US being mad about memes, when it all happened years before we'd have given a shit about russian troll farms, while simultaneously underplaying those troll farms. It reeks of a trash conspiracy theory only shalcker would pretend to believe.

You realize that I did not link sources because they are entirely in Ukrainian or Russian language? And stop putting words into my mouth - I never claimed I could not find sources. It is just english speaking western press exists in a separate dimension and does not notice things that are inconvenient for their narrative. Also, FYI, you can just right click on an image and google search it. I tried finding an english language source, but had no luck with it. But, if you have the urge to learn another language (google translate works awfully with them, especially ukrainian, sometimes twisting the intended meaning due to complex syntax), here are a couple of them:
https://pikabu.ru/story/parubiyu_zad...yperov_6247758
This one includes a video of snipers exiting a building (about 20 people in total) and that a Ukrainian MP escorts them. There are discussions as to whether they were Georgian mercenaries or the Right Sector (That is what their political party is literally called) militants, because none were ever identified. But the fact is - a paramilitary group armed to wage a small war walks among, I quote John McCain - "peaceful opposition". And a parliament member stands on a side overseeing their exit.
Here is another member of Ukrainian Parliament, Pashinski (in a hat and glasses), exiting a building with what seems like an AR-15 platform fitted with a suppressor after a mass shooting. The video was taken down by youtube, but photos remain. The other person is a personal bodyguard of Avakov, a Right Sector leader, who later became minister of internal affairs.
http://gorozhanin.dp.ua/novosti/2101...ite-video.html
Funny thing - these images were accidental. He was detained by protesters because they did not recognize him and he had to show them what he was carrying before he was able to present his documents as a Parliament member and a (peaceful) opposition leader.
Video of a Lufthansa plane delivering US diplomatic mail (collecting vehicle registration plates are clearly visible) and getting huge secure bags loaded into armored cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXtodU6Z8xU
I hope that is enough. Also, I am not Ukrainian. But some of my relatives are. I also work a lot in Ukraine, as well as in a number of other countries. And I spend a large portion of my time there, Kiev in particular. So I do know how the country suffered due to this color revolution. For someone who visits from time to time, a change and contrast is clearly visible. It is not for the better. And in my opinion, an opinion of someone who sees what is happening first hand and talks to many locals starting from office clerks and cleaners and all the way to heads of international corporations, this was a coup. A coup that was actively supported and practically forced from the outside. By money, by mercenaries, by threats to destroy people's businesses and livelihoods. Even oligarchs like Ahmetov caved in when they were hit with sanctions and "peaceful protesters" started storming offices of his bank and his holding company.
PS. Also, I know that English is not my first language, or even my second. But really, be more coherent in your statements, because your causes and effects seem confused. I never blamed it on US being mad about memes. That was your weird conclusion. I merely stated that even a miniscule thing like memes got you triggered, while directly financing a coup in another country is seen as business as usual. Also, these videos do get deleted by youtube on the regular. Especially ones that show "peaceful opposition" using firearms. Graphic violence and all that. Interested in that - search darkweb, they are not hidden very deep. And compared to what was happening in Ukraine, these troll farms are a shit on the curb of a road - I would not look twice in that direction even if I noticed it in the first place. So yeah, I downplay them. Like any sane person should. Because if you really think that your election was stolen by a $3000 of memes, tinfoil hats are way overdue. This trash conspiracy theory made one of the countries that I love into a dump, partially (at the very least) ruled by Nazis and paramilitary groups and partially by incompetent baboons and parrots sponsored by the US (remind me how much does US give them this year? $540 millions was it?). And when I say Nazis, I really mean the real ones, as in Third Reich Nazis.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1GV2TY

PPS. Hizb ut-Tahrir is now officially a political party in Ukraine. You know, this one:

https://hizb.org.ua/uk/
It does a fair bit of recruiting there as I am told. So I guess the mission was a "success", another hotspot near Russia and European Union was created.

[Forogil]

You remember that Belarus and others liberally accuse people of being "fascists" and wonder if it actually means anything?

Well, now they are following in Stalin's footsteps and calling people who fought against Nazis for fascists:
https://www.dw.com/en/belarus-issues...ers/a-57764143

[Easo]

You remember that Belarus and others liberally accuse people of being "fascists" and wonder if it actually means anything?

Well, now they are following in Stalin's footsteps and calling people who fought against Nazis for fascists:
https://www.dw.com/en/belarus-issues...ers/a-57764143

Actually, USSR time had less accusations flying around, as funny as that might sound. Maybe because it was fresher memory, maybe to keep the populations placated, not sure. This is pure politics and populism, as always.

[Mihalik]

Fall of dictator like Lukashenko - even to nominally pro-democratic protesters decrying electoral fraud - doesn't automatically create democracy either.

That's the dumbest argument yet.

"Don't try to improve things, success is not guaranteed, so keep wallowing in misery."

[Shalcker]

That's the dumbest argument yet.

"Don't try to improve things, success is not guaranteed, so keep wallowing in misery."

At this point it is possible to say not "success is not guaranteed", but "failure is guaranteed". You're simply unwilling to commit at the level where it worked in the past and your actions are purely reactive.