Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Lochton]

it would massively cut it down... I am tired that pretending any solution that isn't a 100% silver bullet isn't valid...

Yes, cut down, until the gold sellers find out they can increase their business because Blizzard is pulling out, and the market will increase again but it will be breaking ToS.

Not to mention there is no general benefits of removing the token then, other than illegal sales increasing once more. Removing the token, you also remove game-time from some people who can't get game-time other ways than with gold for various reasons. So, not only would you remove safer trades of gold between players, but also game-time, and enforce the ToS breakers once more.

- - - Updated - - -

So let's go ahead and do a pros and cons of removing the WoW token.

Cons --

- doesn't solve the problem
- you'll still have just as much trade chat spam because the gold in the economy doesn't mysteriously vanish because the WoW token disappears
- players with many WoW tokens saved up will likely quit the game altogether, further compounding the previous issue

Pros --

- you win an internet argument on a forum
- there aren't any other pros, this idea just sucks

Let's make a real list...

Pros:
- Fewer aspects of P2W.
- Boosts will become less available for a short time.
- Prices of stuff drops.

Cons:
- Removed option of safe trades of gold.
- Removed option of buying game-time for gold.
- Telling the world that the illegal gold selling market won.
- Gold sellers will increase their business once more, as they are the sole supplier.
- - Increased spam for sales against ToS.
- Boosts will become less available for a short time.
- - Chance the boosting culture will become for real money (some already do so).
- Reverting back to people trying to sell game-time for gold against the ToS.
- Increased dangers of scams.
- Auction price crash.
- Gold sinks will need to be adjusted.
- The actual value of people's purchases dropping (some people, believe it or not, have gained millions of gold just by playing the game).

[Procrustes]

So many people say "boosting is just, pay2convenience.
What is required to raid and get the best equipment? Time only.
What is required to level up? Also time.
So it’s not that the one is a chore, and the other is pure skill.
Everything is in a way, pay to win. For people who consider cosmetics, big part of an MMO, having nice looking gear, is a win. So for them, even people buying cosmetics, is pay2win.

Like someone mentioned, in every game, gold can get you anywhere. But WoW made it official. And there is also the issue with them not fighting gold farmers and sellers.

[Lochton]

So many people say "boosting is just, pay2convenience.
What is required to raid and get the best equipment? Time only.
What is required to level up? Also time.
So it’s not that the one is a chore, and the other is pure skill.
Everything is in a way, pay to win. For people who consider cosmetics, big part of an MMO, having nice looking gear, is a win. So for them, even people buying cosmetics, is pay2win.

Like someone mentioned, in every game, gold can get you anywhere. But WoW made it official. And there is also the issue with them not fighting gold farmers and sellers.

But they are fighting them? And the token was one of the weapons.

[arkanon]

This thread is like coronation street - you can skip it for extended periods of time, come back, and you havnt missed anything and everything is the same. The people fighting still cant accept that the issue isn't "is the game P2W", but rather "WHAT is P2W" - and thats something that simply cannot be answered.

[Taintedwings]

I like this topic. I mean, I often joke about the only ones that can really save our world would be the people who write on any gaming forums.

Here is my opinion. I know there is a workable definition to what is Pay2Win but I like to look at it as 'Pay to Win; paying with what to win what.

I believe the term came from gacha games and I do play a gacho game myself so I am quite familiar with it. In gacha games, the game company cannot sell you anything that you can't get by playing the game regularly; be they items or service, so the 'real' thing you're actually pay for is time. But the problem is that that definition can only be apply to items/service that directly affects your game play which is why many gacha games make their money on new (often game breaking) characters and cosmetics (skins) which players don't need in order to play the game. The degree of personal skills don't matter. All that matters if that you can get to the end...eventually.

The 'Win' in gacha games is often getting the most powerful/coolest items/characters/spells, all of which can be achieved by any players, the difference is time.

The 'Win' in WoW is (imo) the same as gacha games; a typical player will want the most powerful/coolest whatever. So can a player simply pay real money to get them?
I think so with Gold. I mean, I can technically get them all by myself if I invest enough time or waited long enough but I can easily just pay a boost to get me there. Can I buy Gold with real money, yes via Tokens and from there I can spend the Gold on shortening the time between me and whatever it is that I wanted.

Pay2Win has nothing to do with individual skills or emotions etc etc. To me it's very black and white; can I pay real money to get me things in the game I am currently playing? Yes. Can I pay someone to carry me in PvP without me doing anything at all? Yes. Can I pay to get my mythics done and mythic gears without any real input from me? Yes. So then, to me at least, WoW is Pay2Win.

[Lochton]

This thread is like coronation street - you can skip it for extended periods of time, come back, and you havnt missed anything and everything is the same. The people fighting still cant accept that the issue isn't "is the game P2W", but rather "WHAT is P2W" - and thats something that simply cannot be answered.

Well, in this thread it is

What is P2W? Why is it P2W? When was it P2W?

And we all have different opinions on all three.

[spalernTJ]

It doesn't really work like that in an MMO. Though those three are definitely the ultimate goal posts, due to the game's open nature and no official goalpost, it's up to the player to kind of decide where theirs is. If a person has limited time, or experience, their goal post could simply be completing Castle Nathria on heroic, and they would consider that their win. For some it's gaining full BiS gear, others it might be all the transmog etc.

[Procrustes]

This thread is like coronation street - you can skip it for extended periods of time, come back, and you havnt missed anything and everything is the same. The people fighting still cant accept that the issue isn't "is the game P2W", but rather "WHAT is P2W" - and thats something that simply cannot be answered.

I think the issue is, what is good for our gaming experience.
Personally I really hate any micro-transaction. Even cosmetics. It make me disappointed with people I play with.
It all comes to, who we wanna play with. I guess with people that share our vision.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Yeah, I sure love paying real life money for my "Instant Raid Boss Kill" token every week! Sure does save time.

[Crimson Spears]

Yeah, I sure love paying real life money for my "Instant Raid Boss Kill" token every week! Sure does save time.

The weird part is no one can be certain if your being sarcastic or not at this point.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The weird part is no one can be certain if your being sarcastic or not at this point.

Who knows? But don't dare criticize me! I will spend another $25 on "Squelch and Ban your Haters" token and use it on you if you do.

[darklogrus]

The weird part is no one can be certain if your being sarcastic or not at this point.

I had a guild mate who was close to his 2400 rating but couldnt do it ended up buying the carries to 2400 with tokens..

[Crimson Spears]

Who knows? But don't dare criticize me! I will spend another $25 on "Squelch and Ban your Haters" token and use it on you if you do.

You know this actually exists right or at least did at the start of the system. You could pay a website to mass report a player with bots to mute their account for roughly 24 hours till a gm could over turn it...

again I am struggling to tell if your being sarcastic or not...or if you just haven't been paying attention.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

You know this actually exists right or at least did at the start of the system. You could pay a website to mass report a player with bots to mute their account for roughly 24 hours till a gm could over turn it...

again I am struggling to tell if your being sarcastic or not...or if you just haven't been paying attention.

That's a shitty 3rd party service for sure. And it's also not a feature you can purchase directly from Blizzard themselves to do.


As a paid token to kill a raid boss instantly does not exist in the game and will likely never exist, you tell me if it's sarcasm or not.

[Crimson Spears]

That's a shitty 3rd party service for sure. And it's also not a feature you can purchase directly from Blizzard themselves to do.


As a paid token to kill a raid boss instantly does not exist in the game and will likely never exist, you tell me if it's sarcasm or not.

I mean you buy token take to booster get CE... sure it might be a dozen tokens but its the same effect. Understanding that just because something has a single degree of separation is still related isn't exactly some massive feat of deductive reasoning...

[Oakshana]

Just to insert a note of reality to this discussion:

• This has been ongoing ever since the sparkle pony.
• Everyone has their own definition of P2W and is not going to be swayed now.
• It's all rather a pointless discussion that mainly happens so people can vent hostility toward anyone who disagrees with them.

There's nothing new in that but it bears repeating once in a while just so people can bear that in mind while they're busy crafting their next barrage of insults, etc. I don't think I've seen a new argument put forth about this in years. So circle around the drain as much as you like.

My own view is that it really doesn't matter at all. If you're offended for paying a monthly subscription and the availability of cosmetic store stuff or tokens on top of that then you're not wrong. If none of that bothers you, you're not wrong either. This has been the proverbial 'slippery slope' for over 10 years and it hasn't really gotten any more or less slippery in all that time.

Now the part that will piss y'all off I guess: I used to think I would be appalled if they sold power in the store. I don't think I would now although it would take some corporate stones to do that and have a subscription in the bargain. Blizzard very definitely has the stones and it's the very best indication that the game is doing OK that they've never done it. I would never use anything like that, just like I practically never use the stores on mobile apps and games.

If a game is too rapacious for your pocketbook play what you can for free, leave when you've squeezed every last drop of content out of it that doesn't cost anything, and never think of it again. If you don't mind spending money then that's your business. I am admittedly a mostly solo player in all of my games at this point so this shit is easy for me. I ignore it because it simply doesn't matter.

Well thought out posts like this are what make me realize why you were a moderator in the past.

But threads like this are what make me realize why you stepped down from it.

If nothing else, I always have appreciated your voice of reason Moana.

[Accendor]

Yeah, I sure love paying real life money for my "Instant Raid Boss Kill" token every week! Sure does save time.

Your do realize that this is literally what you can do right now, yes? Cranted, it's not instant, but full hc clear in 60 min is possible.

[Mysterymask]

Your do realize that this is literally what you can do right now, yes? Cranted, it's not instant, but full hc clear in 60 min is possible.

...they could do that pre token too

[Soon-TM]

...they could do that pre token too

You are conveniently failing to mention that it was considered cheating at the time, unless you had managed to farm all that gold yourself. Which was quite hard for any non-AH goblin before WoD and its money printing machines.

[Fluxoz]

Anything in wow is technically purchaseable, so it is inherently pay to win. To claim that the token is not directly winning, and therefore the game isnt pay to win, seems a bit contrived. The price for the cutting edge level of boosts is obscene, and I dont think a relevant percentage of the playerbase makes use of it, but it exists regardless.

Curve boosting on the other hand... im surprised there hasnt been a banhammer hit on this yet