Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[downnola]

Whatever the reason is, really does it matter? I mean If Jews decide to buy land in that region because a book told them to, or some historical tie, or to join other Jews in the area of historical significance or whatever reason is that a problem? I mean before the 1880's Jews were outright legally forbidden from owning anything, from riding horses, and had to dress a certain way and accept that Arab children could pelt them with rocks and they just had to take it on the chin or accept that occasionally an Arab could barge into a Jewish persons house or business and just take their stuff. Why Jews decided to buy land there seems completely unimportant unless this is "Well these people should be forbidden from buying things here!" and the only reason they were forbidden from doing so was a different set of laws that came specifically from a religious text. The Arabs would only accept a social arrangement of Jewish submission, and subservience, and their entire position is one of restoring that social order. I find Liberal Americas fanatic support of that kind of funny; given you know White Southerners have a similar grievance about Black people but nobody takes their injured ego as some grave moral injustice.

No, that's not what I'm taking issue with here. I'm taking issue with the construction of a far-right ethno-nationalist state that employs courts and laws to favor one group over another. This state has displaced hundreds of thousands of people over the last 80 years and continues to do so by settling in land outside of its borders (the West Bank and East Jerusalem). It's funny how you talk about Arabs treating Jewish people like dogs as if Europe and Russia haven't inflicted more violence and misery upon Jewish people throughout human history. I'd say they do deserve a place to call their own safely away from the raving Christian bigotry they've faced since the Crusades. My only issue with Israel is their treatment of Palestinians and the colonization of the area backed by the good ol' US of A. You know, actual imperialism.



This isn't just the act of buying land, this is the forcible annexation of territory outside of Israeli's borders. Give me a fucking break.

That Muslim Arab man did not accept the Ottoman reforms that allowed Jews to own property and made pretty clear that they did not tolerate equality with Jews. Likewise no Arab living there can earnestly trace their ancestry back centuries; come off it. Many of the Arabs there now are about as recent as the first wave of Jews who came there when land was liberalized and people who weren't Muslim could legally own property. Arabs for their part couldn't go back thousands of years because Arabic isn't that old, likewise Arabic is a lot further afield from say the Canaanite languages of which Hebrew is a branch of Canaanite languages. So this claim "Both have been there for thousands of years" is also not backed up archeologically. We can in fact point to when Arabic speakers showed up in the region, the Ummiyad conquests specifically brought Arabic rule to that strip of land, but there is also little evidence the present day Arabs are in fact those Arabs descendants. Given the history post Ottoman Land Reform, many of them are likely Kurds, Egyptians, Turks, and elsewhere.

Really now?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/h...ern-arabs-jews

[Elegiac]

It is kind of funny seeing the same people who spent the entirety of the 2020 electoral cycle screaming that if you voted Democrat you were actively supporting drone striking people in the Middle East spending this entire thread trying to find increasingly abstruse ways of justifying drone striking people in the Middle East, tbh.

[uuuhname]

It is kind of funny seeing the same people who spent the entirety of the 2020 electoral cycle screaming that if you voted Democrat you were actively supporting drone striking people in the Middle East spending this entire thread trying to find increasingly abstruse ways of justifying drone striking people in the Middle East, tbh.

worse than that. saying Arabs as a whole would create an ethno-state if they had the chance and they want to wipe all Jewish people off the face of the planet. it's shockingly bigoted.

[Theodarzna]

No, that's not what I'm taking issue with here. I'm taking issue with the construction of a far-right ethno-nationalist state that employs courts and laws to favor one group over another. This state has displaced hundreds of thousands of people over the last 80 years and continues to do so by settling in land outside of its borders (the West Bank and East Jerusalem). It's funny how you talk about Arabs treating Jewish people like dogs as if Europe and Russia haven't inflicted more violence and misery upon Jewish people throughout human history. I'd say they do deserve a place to call their own safely away from the raving Christian bigotry they've faced since the Crusades. My only issue with Israel is their treatment of Palestinians and the colonization of the area backed by the good ol' US of A. You know, actual imperialism.

[...]

This isn't just the act of buying land, this is the forcible annexation of territory outside of Israeli's borders. Give me a fucking break.

So, what will Palestine be if not a far-right ethno-Nationalist state that derives its legal code from an actual religious text? Likewise, what is this nonsense about courts and laws favoring one group over another? The Israeli courts have been dicking over a Jewish landlord for decades trying everything to keep these Arabs in their apartments and even declared them protected status and merely asked "Well as long as you pay rent, you are fine and can't be evicted?" Like what sort of racist court system dicks over the race of people its supposedly favoring? More over why is it that Arabs can buy and lease land in Israel? Even non-citizens? Even citizens of hostile states. Arabs can buy a building and even charge Jews rent, and evict Jews for not paying. Heck, they can even lease government land at a discount.

Arabs treating Jewish people badly is the point, clearly equality wasn't an option, Arabs made that clear. What does Russia have to do with that? What does the southern White now get a pass because "Hey, unlike the Arabs we never just mass castrated all the black male slaves" so what? Because White Southerners in the US were comparatively less brutally sadistic towards Black Slaves the Black population should have been grateful? What is your point in bringing up Russia or Europe which seem utterly unrelated.

As for the way the wars went, You know if the Arabs won in '48 or '67 there would have been an outright genocide, they said that was their plan. The Arabs position was "Woe to the Vanquished" if they ever won, sorry to see the Arabs decided to try and win the whole region and restore their racist and bigoted social order by force of arms way back then and got their ass kicked by a race they deemed inferior and that that really bruised their ego, but honestly, they threw their theoretical state in the trash in 1948. And again and again have thrown it away on a gamble to achieve their aims of conquest and wiping the Jews out and restoring themselves as supreme. The Arabs could have had peace if they had the ability to respect Jews as equals, they showed over 180 years and honestly over 1000 years that that is not tolerable to their sensibilities.

Really now?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/h...ern-arabs-jews

Cool, then everybody has some genetic legacy through one parent or another. So the Jews have a claim and had to toil as an oppressed minority for generations over an overlord. Plus, I suspect after that Ummiyad Conquest the presence of local DNA into the Arabs was acquired in last the pleasant means.

[Elegiac]

Cool, then everybody has some genetic legacy through one parent or another.

I.e. you pulled that nonsense about Palestinians being recent immigrants out of your ass and have to now pretend that the genetic evidence isn't really that important because it debunks your mythological understanding of the Levant's history.

Plus, I suspect after that Ummiyad Conquest the presence of local DNA into the Arabs was acquired in last the pleasant means.

"You suspect" isn't evidence for your bigoted belief that the presence of Canaanite genetic markers in Palestinians could only have been the result of rape, Theo.

[downnola]

So, what will Palestine be if not a far-right ethno-Nationalist state that derives its legal code from an actual religious text? Likewise, what is this nonsense about courts and laws favoring one group over another? The Israeli courts have been dicking over a Jewish landlord for decades trying everything to keep these Arabs in their apartments and even declared them protected status and merely asked "Well as long as you pay rent, you are fine and can't be evicted?" Like what sort of racist court system dicks over the race of people its supposedly favoring? More over why is it that Arabs can buy and lease land in Israel? Even non-citizens? Even citizens of hostile states. Arabs can buy a building and even charge Jews rent, and evict Jews for not paying. Heck, they can even lease government land at a discount.

Arabs treating Jewish people badly is the point, clearly equality wasn't an option, Arabs made that clear. What does Russia have to do with that? What does the southern White now get a pass because "Hey, unlike the Arabs we never just mass castrated all the black male slaves" so what? Because White Southerners in the US were comparatively less brutally sadistic towards Black Slaves the Black population should have been grateful? What is your point in bringing up Russia or Europe which seem utterly unrelated.

As for the way the wars went, You know if the Arabs won in '48 or '67 there would have been an outright genocide, they said that was their plan. The Arabs position was "Woe to the Vanquished" if they ever won, sorry to see the Arabs decided to try and win the whole region and restore their racist and bigoted social order by force of arms way back then and got their ass kicked by a race they deemed inferior and that that really bruised their ego, but honestly, they threw their theoretical state in the trash in 1948. And again and again have thrown it away on a gamble to achieve their aims of conquest and wiping the Jews out and restoring themselves as supreme. The Arabs could have had peace if they had the ability to respect Jews as equals, they showed over 180 years and honestly over 1000 years that that is not tolerable to their sensibilities.



Cool, then everybody has some genetic legacy through one parent or another. So the Jews have a claim and had to toil as an oppressed minority for generations over an overlord. Plus, I suspect after that Ummiyad Conquest the presence of local DNA into the Arabs was acquired in last the pleasant means.

If I didn't know any better, I would come to the conclusion that you really don't like Arab Muslims.

[Elegiac]

So, what will Palestine be if not a far-right ethno-Nationalist state that derives its legal code from an actual religious text?

If you're admitting this is a bad thing then why are you continuing to support Israel and opposing efforts to boycott and sanction it?

The problem with whataboutism is that even when you make those sorts of arguments you're still acknowledging the act in question is objectionable.

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If I didn't know any better, I'd say you really didn't like Arab Muslims.

Go figure that the same folks pushing the "Arab refugees are all criminals and rapists" angle during the refugee crisis a few years ago would also be claiming that the only possible way Palestinians might have a historical claim to the land is if they acquired it through theft or rape.

[Theodarzna]

If I didn't know any better, I would come to the conclusion that you really don't like Arab Muslims.

If I didn't know any better, I would come to the conclusion that you really don't like Jews.

Man this is an easy game. If we are going to play that game, I am unsure where it leads. But I am excited to see where it goes.

[Elegiac]

If I didn't know any better, I would come to the conclusion that you really don't like Jews.

Man this is an easy game.

Cool. People aren't claiming that Israel as a state is representative of all Jewish people in the same way y'all are claiming Hamas is representative of all Arabic or Muslim people.

If it's an easy game, why are y'all having such a hard time playing by the rules?

[downnola]

Go figure that the same folks pushing the "Arab refugees are all criminals and rapists" angle during the refugee crisis a few years ago would also be claiming that the only possible way Palestinians might have a historical claim to the land is if they acquired it through theft or rape.

And also justified the absolute destruction of Syria by a bloodthirsty maniac backed by Russian imperialism because the Arab Muslims were all criminals and rapists. It's almost like there's a common theme at play here.

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If I didn't know any better, I would come to the conclusion that you really don't like Jews.

Man this is an easy game. If we are going to play that game, I am unsure where it leads. But I am excited to see where it goes.

I keep making it a point to focus my arguments on West Bank settlements and your response to that is if the shoe was on the other foot the Arabs would do the same. Apparently, the evidence for a common Jewish and Arab heritage is due to rape. I'm just calling it as I see it, Theo.

[Theodarzna]

And also justified the absolute destruction of Syria by a bloodthirsty maniac backed by Russian imperialism because the Arab Muslims were all criminals and rapists. It's almost like there's a common theme at play here.

I keep making it a point to focus my arguments on West Bank settlements and your response to that is if the shoe was on the other foot the Arabs would do the same. Apparently, the evidence for a common Jewish and Arab heritage is because of rape. I'm just calling it as I see it, Theo.

You know what lets really dig into this.

So if I say talking about American history bring up the Tulsa massacre lets say, or KKK lynchings, or Jim Crow is that me hating White Americans? Like if I describe pre-Civil Rights America as a fundamentally unequal place, and I say "You know, White people at that time, there was a cultural value that really didn't respect equality and that is bad" is that hating White Americans?

You don't want to seemingly discuss history because you are invested in portraying the Arabs cause here as some uniquely saintly thing, like these are Cherokee Indians forced to march on the trail of tears or something.

[Elegiac]

So if I say talking about American history bring up the Tulsa massacre lets say, or KKK lynchings, or Jim Crow is that me hating White Americans?

It would be if you were using it to justify a system of oppression and erasure of White Americans in the present. But since people aren't doing that, it's a silly non sequitur.

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You don't want to seemingly discuss history

You confuse disinterest in your revised version of history (i.e. "Palestinians have no ties to the land and if they do they only got it through conquest or rape") with disinterest in discussing actual history.

because you are invested in portraying the Arabs cause here as some uniquely saintly thing

No one's doing that, nor is being a saint a prerequisite for basic human rights anyway. This a rehash of that silly "no angel" crap y'all bring up every time there's a police shooting.

[downnola]

You know what lets really dig into this.

So if I say talking about American history bring up the Tulsa massacre lets say, or KKK lynchings, or Jim Crow is that me hating White Americans? Like if I describe pre-Civil Rights America as a fundamentally unequal place, and I say "You know, White people at that time, there was a cultural value that really didn't respect equality and that is bad" is that hating White Americans?

You don't want to seemingly discuss history because you are invested in portraying the Arabs cause here as some uniquely saintly thing, like these are Cherokee Indians forced to march on the trail of tears or something.

I'm portraying Arabs as human beings that also have a claim to live in that area. I never said they weren't capable of violence, bigotry, and fascism as well. Human beings are a flawed and imperfect species, I thought that goes without saying.

How am I unwilling to discuss history? I'm not the one handwaving away genetic studies because they don't line up with my preferred understanding of the holy land.

It would be if you were using it to justify a system of oppression and erasure of White Americans in the present. But since people aren't doing that, it's a silly non sequitur.

also this

[Endus]

If I didn't know any better, I would come to the conclusion that you really don't like Jews.

Man this is an easy game. If we are going to play that game, I am unsure where it leads. But I am excited to see where it goes.

Nobody here is attacking Israelis for being Jewish.

You're spending all your time here attacking Arabic people for being Arabs, and treating them as if they're subhumans who all share the same beliefs and who deserve the human rights abuses they're suffering.

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You don't want to seemingly discuss history because you are invested in portraying the Arabs cause here as some uniquely saintly thing, like these are Cherokee Indians forced to march on the trail of tears or something.

Your rhetoric against Arabs is no different than the rhetoric against the Cherokee in that time. So that's a pretty on-the-nose example, and you're simply unable to recognize the similarities because you've convinced yourself your deep prejudices are "justified".


Edit: Let's play a game;

"And is it supposed that the wandering savage has a stronger attachment to his home than the settled, civilized Jew? Is it more afflicting to him to leave the graves of his fathers than it is to our brothers and children? Rightly considered, the policy of the Government toward the Arab is not only liberal, but generous. He is unwilling to submit to the laws of Israel and mingle with their population. To save him from this alternative, or perhaps utter annihilation, the Government kindly offers him a new home, and proposes to pay the whole expense of his removal and settlement."

Seems pretty comparable to Israel's current approach and rhetoric regarding Palestinians, and Arabs in general. And that's part of Andrew Jackson's speech regarding Indian removal, which led to the Trail of Tears; literally all I did was replace a couple words to switch the ethnic groups and nations in question.

Original here; it's the last paragraph; https://www.nps.gov/museum/tmc/manz/...al_message.pdf

[Theodarzna]

I'm portraying Arabs as human beings that also have a claim to live in that area. I never said they weren't capable of violence, bigotry, and fascism as well. Human beings are a flawed and imperfect species, I thought that goes without saying.

How am I unwilling to discuss history? I'm not the one handwaving away genetic studies because they don't line up with my preferred understanding of the holy land.

I believe they have a claim and should have gotten a State. I'd argue that the course taken prior to 1948 and in 1948 and after led them into the situation they are in now, and their own decisions and policies had a significant hand in this problem. I.E. Maybe if equality was something they were hip to prior to 1948, maybe this problem would have all been avoided. Hey, maybe instead of saying "NO" in 1948 and attempting a genocidal war of conquest against the Jews they could have simply agreed to a settlement and accepted a more equitable social arrangement, there would be no crisis. There were a lot of opportunities for these human beings to avoid this situation, but I am not going to pretend these are innocent victims, simply the unjustly put upon and oppressed and in this situation through no fault of their own. Unlike you, I grant they have agency and have made decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Plus, they stated explicitly what would have happened to the Jews had the arabs won, an orgy of blood and murder. I'm less sympathetic given the history and their own role in being in that situation.

Plus Israel does indeed grant Arabs citizenship, Israeli Arabs serve in the army, the Knesset, own property, can rent to Jews and even evict those Jews for not paying rent. Druze and other ethnic minorities also exist in Israel, Christians as well as Muslims and even collect stipends from the State for religious services and the like. No such treatment would have been given to the Jews had the Arabs won in 1948, or 1967, they said explicitly what would happen if they won and it would have been finishing what Hitler started.

[Elegiac]

-snip-

Once again, you're failing to explain how shit that happened sixty years ago (presented from one viewpoint only, I might add, since "war of extermination against the Jews" omits the "attempting to purge a puppet entity of Western imperialism" angle) justifies Israel's current policy of colonization and apartheid.

"They would have done the same or worse if the shoe was on the other foot" is still an acknowledgement that what they're doing is bad, lol.

[Xarkan]

Gosh its crazy how selective we are about when and how we can discuss the past, We CAN discuss the past if it presents the Arab position in the best most angelic light one can conjure out, but we cannot discuss it in any way to adds some nuance to the story. Or have any actual record of how we got to a point where an Arab family finds it to be morally reprehensible that they have to pay rent to someone of another race. And apparently "Anti-Racist" people are firmly supporting these Arab families outright bigoted sense of supremacy and injured ego at having to pay rent to someone of a different, and in their mind inferior, race.

That assumes (wrongly) that looking at now paints the palestinians in some angelic light..

It also assumes (absurdly) that i should be on Palestines side.. i am not (nor am i on Israels side, both sides are, imo, supporting war criminals that should face trial not voting booths)

But if you are stuck 50 years ago there can be no solution ever (not necessarily saying there can be a solution but being stuck in a more distant past ensures there cannot)

[Zython]

The fact that the worst anti-semites on this board (e.g. @Theodarzna) are taking Israel's side should show everyone what this is really about.

[Themius]

The fact that the worst anti-semites on this board (e.g. @Theodarzna) are taking Israel's side should show everyone what this is really about.

End times?

[tehdang]

The fact that the worst anti-semites on this board (e.g. @Theodarzna) are taking Israel's side should show everyone what this is really about.

If you have to accuse users of being "the worst anti-semites on this board" to form the substance of the post, the most logical conclusion is that this is a tribal fight and you're signalling that he's in the wrong tribe. It's tribal politics that point out the dark souls of those from the other tribe.

I believe they have a claim and should have gotten a State. I'd argue that the course taken prior to 1948 and in 1948 and after led them into the situation they are in now, and their own decisions and policies had a significant hand in this problem. I.E. Maybe if equality was something they were hip to prior to 1948, maybe this problem would have all been avoided. Hey, maybe instead of saying "NO" in 1948 and attempting a genocidal war of conquest against the Jews they could have simply agreed to a settlement and accepted a more equitable social arrangement, there would be no crisis. There were a lot of opportunities for these human beings to avoid this situation, but I am not going to pretend these are innocent victims, simply the unjustly put upon and oppressed and in this situation through no fault of their own. Unlike you, I grant they have agency and have made decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Plus, they stated explicitly what would have happened to the Jews had the arabs won, an orgy of blood and murder. I'm less sympathetic given the history and their own role in being in that situation.

Plus Israel does indeed grant Arabs citizenship, Israeli Arabs serve in the army, the Knesset, own property, can rent to Jews and even evict those Jews for not paying rent. Druze and other ethnic minorities also exist in Israel, Christians as well as Muslims and even collect stipends from the State for religious services and the like. No such treatment would have been given to the Jews had the Arabs won in 1948, or 1967, they said explicitly what would happen if they won and it would have been finishing what Hitler started.

Since it probably bears repeating, the Palestinians wanting peace and a second state existing right beside Israel are poorly served by the history of wars and terrorism in the area. Mutual distrust is a huge hurdle in this situation. If Hamas stays in power, and will use a decades-long court case as pretext to launch a thousand missiles, then things cannot progress in the short term. Relaxation of border transit, import restrictions, and all the hundreds of things trending towards a two-state solution only occur when both parties perceive it won't be used to bomb more buses, engage in more knife attacks, construct terror tunnels, and all the rest. So Palestinians in Gaza that don't support the terrorist "answer" to past grievances are also victims in the matter with Israelis that must huddle down during missile sirens all night long. At least the Israelis can have elections after it for who decides on the approach and Gaza ... well, maybe they'll have elections this decade, maybe in the next two decades if things go well?