New item level cap in Tazavesh makes it dead on arrival for many mains

[kaelix1]

It's probably mythic only, like karazhan and mechagon, so it's the m0 level that drops 226.

Also, to add to my previous post... 226 is the highest ilvl available in 9.0 (not counting a couple exceptional 233 pieces). Only the more hardcore players are at 226 or higher at the moment. If you think that most people have it, and on multiple alts too, you are either trolling, or completely delusional.

That would be even perfect, the higher you go in M the better gear, more i think about it more i don't see any issue, not sure why people complain

[Doffen]

It's probably mythic only, like karazhan and mechagon, so it's the m0 level that drops 226.

Also, to add to my previous post... 226 is the highest ilvl available in 9.0 (not counting a couple exceptional 233 pieces). Only the more hardcore players are at 226 or higher at the moment. If you think that most people have it, and on multiple alts too, you are either trolling, or completely delusional.

If I do that dungeon alone and upgrade every slot in my gear I will go up 11 item levels.

So yeah, it's pretty useful for lots of players that do heroic raiding or less, and we are the majority

[DeusX]

Tazavash will be released as a M0 dungeon, you can't even go into it M+ until 9.2.

Why would any mythic raider expect gear upgrades from M0? I'm seriously confused by the thread...

I expect the m0 to be equivalent to a +10 for the other dungeons.

[Tradu]

226 is much better than 210 + valor upgrades. You'd need to spend a completely absurd amount of valor to make a 210 item relevant in 9.1. M0 dungeons aren't supposed to drop relevant loot for well geared mains, they're just there for achievements/mounts. It's not really any different to Karazhan or Mechagon.

[MrLachyG]

We already are in the longest content draught for a first patch ever and it will still take a while for 9.1 to arrive. When it finally arrives, one of the big features will be completely meaningless for many main characters, because it offers no upgrades for them.
Why exclude a large portion of the playerbase from this content? It's not like the alternatives are abundant.

gonna stop you right there. the mega dungeon gives 226 gear, which is current level mythic gear. You say that a large portion of the playerbase is being excluded from this content; first off, that is just rubbish - there wouldn't be that many players who are fully mythic geared compared to the rest of the playerbase. secondly, the dungeon opens immediately while the raid usually waits a week or two - this will mean that players who didn't raid at a mythic level will be able to get 226 gear, which will be an upgrade for them - and that is the majority of the playerbase, not people who have been raiding non stop mythic for the entire first patch

[munkeyinorbit]

which is exackly why it should have at least 233 itlv - so that people have a reason to do it.

atm its meaningless dead content on arrival

For who? 95 percent of the player base? No it's dead for 5%. Almost everyone can get rewards from it on release.

[tomten]

I'm 225 ilvl and could still get 3-4 upgrades, that would replace upgraded 220 gear. To truly be "excluded" you need to be 228 ilvl with 233 pieces. Which is like 2-3% of the playerbase.
Not sure what people bitch about.

[arandomuser]

was really looking forward to actually doing the dungeon and being able to upgrade gear
blizz must be worried that the trinkets will be bis.. When upgraded dungeon tri nkets are already BIS for most classes, hell mages PVP trinket is bis.. there seems to be no logical reason for this. I Think the base should be 226 and should be upgradable even, i thought this was a brilliant idea for blizzard to allow the megadungeon loot to be relevent before it hits M+ in the next patch, these dungeons are usually way over tuned for toons that actually need the gear also, which would of made the upgradable loot feel like much more of a reward, very dissapointed, it seems like blizz focuses way ttoo much on criticism from the influencers not enough of just making a game feel rewarding

[tomten]

We already are in the longest content draught for a first patch ever and it will still take a while for 9.1 to arrive. When it finally arrives, one of the big features will be completely meaningless for many main characters, because it offers no upgrades for them.
Why exclude a large portion of the playerbase from this content? It's not like the alternatives are abundant.

Can you link your armory so we can really see you're being excluded because i dont believe you at all.
If i dont remember wrong, you're not even a raider.

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I Think the base should be 226 and should be upgradable even

The base IS 226 ilvl... I agree it should be upgradeable to 233 if you have gotten the 20+ timed runs on all dungeons, as opposed to just 15s in fort/tyr for the new ksm.

[Crimson Spears]

When people get so much welfare loot they complain they can't get heroic raid gear from logging on immediately instead they have to wait an entire week....

Catering to casuals was a fucking mistake. O TBC you are the crown jewel of wow but an artist should never produce their masterpiece so young in their lives...

[Accendor]

Yes, most player have 226 gear atm. Every alt is 226.
Please, provide us you sources. "large portion" seem like a pretty bad lie to me

Every mythic Raider or at least halfway serious m+ player is at least 224 at this point. That is a large fraction of the playerbase. Is it the biggest? Most likely not, but I never claimed that

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It will drop normal raid ilvl, as all megadungeons before it.

In that case, normal Raid itemlevel is also tuned too low.

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At Nathria, Normal/Heroic Raid loot is between 200-220.
Tazavesh loot is at 226.
Casual players, the majority, are usually around Normal/Heroic raid loot.

Tazavesh is maybe out for Mythic Raiders, but they're not the majority here.

I guess that sucks for Mythic Raiders if they wanted to grind pre-raid...
... but not all Mythic Raiders do, some want to just go in with last tier's gear.

So, do Mythic Raiders want to grind, or don't they?
Seems people seem to disagree about this lately. Not surprising.

The gear in Tazavesh I think is mostly catch-up.
If you're missing loot or haven't been around in a while, you can catch up.
It's not meant to replace for everyone, least of all Mythic Raiders.

Last Tier Mythic Raid loot is kind of meant to be used going into next tier. It's kind of why it's there.
If you never needed Mythic Raid loot to continue into next tiers, people wouldn't grind it.
Instead, Mythic raiders would stop immediately once final boss would be dead and say, "eh, it'll be fine, they'll gear us up in next zone."
There's a reason Mythic Raiders at the high end generally grind out their full BiS --
-- So they can go into next Tier fully prepared. Without having to Catch Up.
Which is what Tazavesh gear is. Catch-up. For those who didn't grind.

You have to make a choice - grind in last tier, or grind in Tazavesh.
Tazavesh is useful to catch up for casual players.
But for Mythic Raiders the expectation of last tier grind is more prevalent.
That's the culture. "Be prepared. For anything, at any cost." Mythic Raiding.
Whether you like it or not, you'd have to change everyone's mentality of Mythic Raiding to adjust this.
And I think if they could change how everyone felt about Mythic Raiding at this point, they'd be rushing at the chance.

Anyway, if they upped Tazavesh loot, it'd make next Tier loot less good and also make Mythic Raiders have to grind before next raid more, so some there would complain.

Be careful what you wish for.

Just to clear up song things: mega dungeons normally had a weekly loot lockout. You can hardly call playing 1 dungeon a week for 2 weeks a grind, no matter what.
I also never claimed the people who are 226 now (or pretty close to it) are the majority, but they are a large part of the playerbase.

Last but not least: is it really good design of all content except raiding is designed for alts?
IMO all content should be foremost designed for mains. Implications for alts can and should be considered of course, but not as the main focus.

[crakerjack]

I’ll do the dungeon regardless. The ilvl is t bad for alts, so I can see myself running it multiple times to gear them up.

[Accendor]

Also as usual: Indeed this.

I am always curious how well ppl are geared on average. So sources would be great. According to wowprogress, we have 1250 guild with an ilv of 226 and higher...so there are quite some ppl with that ilv - but all those guilds are like 10/10 mythic - not exactly the target of a 5 man instance maybe.

But I bite:

I mean...imagine that 5 man dropping ilv 232 loot. We would just have another complaint thread. Only that one would be: "Casuals bet better loot than I got for raiding hardcore and being 10/10 mythic" - basically what @Lady Atia said.

But it would be awesome if @Accendor could offer a solution?

Oh btw...lovely that this thread exists, because at the same time we have https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...7#post53217907 - where ppl ask for smaller patches that don't have raids, but "meaningful" story or such. And already somebody makes a thread how one dungeon in a patch that actually WILL have a raid is excluding ppl no..wait..excluding "a large portion of the playerbase"^^

On top: How are you excluded? Are you forbidden to enter if you don't get upgrades. Or are you after all the person who says: "I only raid, play content for upgrades. If it offers no upgrades for me, it is not content"?

I'll bait: no upgrades equals no reason to do it. This is a common problem in SL and an often voiced complain, not only by me.

There are two possible solutions for the problem:
1. Aknowledge the fact that normal raiding is not very hard and the mega dungeon is equally difficult, so it would be fair enough if the rewards are similar.
2. If you do not agree with 1., simply increase the itl for normal raids.

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I have played IMO quite actively throughout the expansion, I have 4 lvl 60 characters with maxed renowns and finished covenant storyline and atleast 1 legendary item, I’ve geared all of them above 200 ilvl, yet I have zero 226 items x)
Mythic 10 achievement is my best so far. No boosting and no pvp. I shall call myself a hipster from now on since i’m in the minority now muahaha

Nobody said something about majority or minority here

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I’ll do the dungeon regardless. The ilvl is t bad for alts, so I can see myself running it multiple times to gear them up.

Should new content be designed for alts before mains?

[Uvania]

interesting, me and my guildies stopped raiding in january and were still rocking a mix of items between 200-220 ilvl from normal/heroic and mythic+

226 items will be a huge upgrade for us.

[Accendor]

Tazavash will be released as a M0 dungeon, you can't even go into it M+ until 9.2.

Why would any mythic raider expect gear upgrades from M0? I'm seriously confused by the thread...

Because it is a new patch and you do also get 226 gear from m+.
Implementing NEW content, that is immediately useless for many players simply does not make sense.

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Can you link your armory so we can really see you're being excluded because i dont believe you at all.
If i dont remember wrong, you're not even a raider.

I'm not linking my armory, simply because I never do, but there are a few things wrong with your post:

1. Even if I was not personally affected, I could still point out the obvious problems here
2. I am not sure what you do not believe me? That I'm 226 itemlevel? Thats right, I am not, I am 225.25 and that is... not really a big task. Literally everyone with a credit card could have that nowaways
3. Feel free to check my post history, you will see A LOT of raid related post over the course of multiple years. I could be a maximum troll of course that just keeps going for years on years on end, but do you REALLY think that is more plausible than me simply being a mythic raider who is disappointed because he (once again) feels excluded?

[Celista]

I doubt many would say that Shadowlands is worse than BfA but I feel like this is by far the most confusing and senselessly designed expansion yet.

I mostly enjoyed BfA. I liked the zones (especially the Alliance ones), faction capitols, most of the allied races, and warfronts. Raiding was meh, which is my only real complaint.

Shadowlands feels a lot worse...and based on the fact that a third (possibly half?) of the playerbase has left during SL, I doubt I'm alone in that opinion. Grindier, strange and/or repetitive/unoriginal systems design and less reward for effort.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I'll bait:

Wow, rare to see someone just come out and say it.

[MatPandaZ]

It's probably mythic only, like karazhan and mechagon, so it's the m0 level that drops 226.

Also, to add to my previous post... 226 is the highest ilvl available in 9.0 (not counting a couple exceptional 233 pieces). Only the more hardcore players are at 226 or higher at the moment. If you think that most people have it, and on multiple alts too, you are either trolling, or completely delusional.

Don't talk tosh. My friend plays twice a week for 3 hours at a time. Only pugs M+ (plays the odd key on his alt with us but he wanted to keep his main pugged only) started 2 months into the xpac and even he has an almost full set of 226. Pretty sure he disappears for weeks on end too not logging in.

What I think you mean is awful players, and players who don't push themselves.

But why should one of the main pieces of content be tailored around them? You already know the content will be too hard for them anyway.

They made scaling difficulty for a reason yet they seem to disregard that in the mega dungeons.

Here's hoping hard mode has some worthwhile rewards. At least mechagon had the rings, mage bracers, HoA powers etc.

[Glorious Leader]

I doubt many would say that Shadowlands is worse than BfA but I feel like this is by far the most confusing and senselessly designed expansion yet. There's been so much potentially enjoyable content this expansion completely killed by either a lack of a reward or a really bad reward system.

I've given up trying to figure out their thought process because I'm convinced it doesn't actually exist at this point.

"Optional content"

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If you make the megadungeon loot too good, people will complain.
.

Honestly - Blizzard can't win on this one ...

They can easily ignore this complaint and win.

[Unlimited Power]

I don't remember what ilvl loot Mechagon dropped in 8.2 and how that stacked up vs BoD/EP, but I remember the loot being woefully underpowered for the base difficulty of Mechagon.

I frankly don't care if Tazavesh launches with ilvl 226 loot available as long as it's tuned with at most ilvl 213 in mind. Preferably lower than that.