Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[TheRevenantHero]

Well, what is sold for real money, is game-time, not gold.

So, if you use the description of who the hell it was in the thread, it would be indirect Pay2Win because the game-time is then sold to a player for gold. And if that is a thing, then WoW has been P2W since its existence, for and against ToS.

You can buy a level boost with real money. Which makes WoW p2w.

[Lochton]

You can buy a level boost with real money. Which makes WoW p2w.

As I've stated far back, that is a minor P2W to me, and I've let that slip and agreed, that is a direct P2W.

And then you suddenly have people arguing about indirect P2W, and suddenly, "visual advantage" and so on.

My own goal in this thread was to see where people established themselves, and of course, share my own points, then it turned to the token and the argument of indirect P2W which suddenly branches out into hell, and the game has now been P2W since its existence started.

[Lochton]

Not everyone can obtain CE's though, and you unlock "visual advantage" from the CE's as well, so, CE's are P2W.

Unless I read you wrong, and your argument now is that anything that can be gotten with gold is P2W. Because said gold can buy something that has been put for sale by someone else who made it using gold from the token sale, or what you buy with gold could be farmed by someone who has game-time bought with a token?

Point 1: Boost is: "I'm lazy, i have money, i will pay to skip all the content and start the endgame content". That's ok, is not P2W. Now with the powerful WoW Token, you just buy a token and get Game time, you pay real money and you get GOLD, tons of it, and have a way stronger advantage by paying your way to win the game, reducing time consumption, pay other players to get your epics, while other players spend months trying to even get a chance to participate in raids + you get carried to unlock powerful achievements that rewards mounts or even titles.

Boost does not bring you to "endgame".
But by your example, even if a player had all the gold by their own work, it is P2W because someone, somewhere, who sold you something, or boosted you, or grouped with you, got game-time, or gold from a token.

If ESO feels bad to you, WoW is worst. Since it has WoW Token P2W, and many players being angry at the game and other players for said unfair advantage. No wonder why WoW is so Toxic and ESO not.

When did you last look and compared the two stores? As well, ESO has its toxic people too, plenty of them.

The token might open hell for you, but it opens heaven for others. "OH NO, HE GOT GOLD!?" - "OH NO, HE'S GONNA GET BOOSTED!?", "OH NO, HE HAS A CHANCE TO ENJOY HIS GAME?!" - "OH NO, HE CAN ACTUALLY BUY THE EXPANSION FOR HIS HARD-EARNED GOLD AND NOT A CREDIT CARD?!"

For you second point, you can call it whatever you want but if you participate in the WoW Token scheme, you are just as bad as the guy buying gold and the guy providing the gold. You just avoided paying Game Time with real money and sold you gold for Game Time, no many players are able to do that did they?

Actually, everyone with the extra money has the ability to help another player with game-time and earn some gold from it. Unless you expect that people just buy game-time for each other out of good heart only? And if we use your example again, anyone that touches gold in WoW, is supporting P2W, even if they do not believe so, because one of those digital strands of code could've been part of a token transaction, or earned by someone with subscription thanks to the token.

Last point: If you paid using WoW Token and Account balance, buying expansions with that scheme is P2W.

So, an inclusive method to give everyone a chance to enjoy the game without actually going bust in real life is P2W, gotcha.

Anything you got using WoW Token P2W scheme = P2W one way or another.

Any gold you may have used, or earned in WoW, is Pay2Win because it could've been paid/bought by someone who had interaction with token sales or purchases, or who might've helped someone who has game-time from the token, or boosted someone who had gold from token sales, or played with friends who managed to finally buy the newest expansion with gold because they did not have real money to buy it, is also P2W.

[TheRevenantHero]

As I've stated far back, that is a minor P2W to me, and I've let that slip and agreed, that is a direct P2W.

And then you suddenly have people arguing about indirect P2W, and suddenly, "visual advantage" and so on.

My own goal in this thread was to see where people established themselves, and of course, share my own points, then it turned to the token and the argument of indirect P2W which suddenly branches out into hell, and the game has now been P2W since its existence started.

Cosmetics aren't p2w. So anyone who says it is? They're arguing for the sake of arguing because they're 100% wrong. The only clear cut example of p2w in WoW is the character boost.

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I am testing this for a long time. My toons are usually lv 50 within 16 hours and lv 60 within an additional 15 hrs to lv 50. All told 36 hrs max with good ole levelling

Yay for everyone who wins by buying a boost to lv 50 and shaving off those 16 hrs.

Like I said..you are reaching, it is pathetic and seeing how much it enrages you...I hope for your sanity you quit this godawful game

The only person reaching is you. And advantage is an advantage no matter how much you try to trivialize it. Just because you're saying it only take 16 hours to do doesn't mean it's not paying money to buy player power.

But it's clear you're not interested in being logical or honest about this discussion considering your use of ad hominem.

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Is one way of calling it Pay to Win, but since it looks more like a Service....it stays like a service. In the other hand, having economical advantage with 200k of gold in your pocket for just having a Credit Card is a big P2W + the fact that gold serves to pay carries in PvP and PvE. And other visual advantages, time advantage, etc...

Calling it a service does nothing but try to avoid saying it's not p2w. Because by that logic, p2w doesn't exist because we can just call it all a service and therefore not p2w.

[Schizoide]

First time I've heard anyone talk about "Visual advantage"..

That may be the first time anyone has ever called cosmetics P2W in the history of the world, yeah. Bizarre stuff.

[Lochton]

Get a job. Or stay on the game feeding this poor and unfair P2W and call it "fair", because you cant pay for the game because you are broke or maybe you are cheap, but in the end, the guy that got your gold is winning the game, thanks to you and you are still on those subs numbers helping Blizzard say: "My game is doing great" to his investors.

Soooo, I understood you correctly. You're saying that human beings cannot have a tough life. If they cannot afford a subscription with real money, they do not work. They cannot enjoy their game because they MUST pay for it with real money because else it is.. unfair for people who pay real money? Some people scrape by with what they can, and a game that can earn itself, is a bliss to some, for they can save those dollars for something else without going into full despair because some guy with a hate boner believes they do not deserve to play the game if they cannot pay with real money.

What game do you hide in? For all MMO's are P2W by your standards, and all MMO players support P2W by your standards, either by doing business, buying items, admiring items, touching them, or working with people who might've made a purchase some time ago..

And as you seem to fit to flag so many, and so much, then why did you ever play WoW in the first place, since WoW has been indirectly pay2win since day one?

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Cosmetics aren't p2w. So anyone who says it is? They're arguing for the sake of arguing because they're 100% wrong. The only clear cut example of p2w in WoW is the character boost.

Whelp, Mr. Necrosaro believes that cosmetics are a "visual advantage".

And I've already said, that I'd gladly agree that a boost is a minor form of P2W because you save time. It is funny that Necrosaro123 does not see the boost as P2W when he/she sees so much Pay2Win in the existence of the game.

That may be the first time anyone has ever called cosmetics P2W in the history of the world, yeah. Bizarre stuff.

Yup, I was baffled as well when I saw that..

[P for Pancetta]

Yes clearly the ability to buy tokens to buy gear is pay to win.

I don't understand why there is a 60 page topic about such an inconfusable and clear thing.

People who argue it's not p2w are delusional.

[TheRevenantHero]

Also dont turn into a drama queen on that first point.

Mr. Necrosaro believes that using WoW Tokens to buy "Transmog, Mounts, Pets...etc" with said gold, is P2W.

Cosmetic on the store, are not P2W.

Buying mounts and transmog isn't pay to win. Even if you are using tokens to do it. Using the tokens to buy gear and boosts through raids/mythic dungeons? Absolutely indirect p2w.

[TheRevenantHero]

Well then honeybunnies - what if I said..."Great...you convinced me...the game is pay to win"?

Then what? All your dramatic "keep on defending it" - what is it worth? I play the game...and it is fine to me. My toons are ilv 200...I have three boosts from my CEs that I didn't use..so even your piss poor "argument" how CEs are "P2W" don't apply to me. I bought AoC two times...I think...yay me...I won. I am such a bad person.

And you? You think you have some moral high ground? Well...one thing I don't see in your replies is this...a reply to the question that I keep on asking:

Do you guys actually still play the game? That is the one thing you just skirt around. The one thing you don't answer. Because boy...if you guys play this game and still give Blizzard your money...you have some serious questions to answer to.

...and I am baffled how you can still attack me if you pay and play.

"this doesn't apply to me so therefore it's not p2w" is hands down the most asinine comment I have seen so far in this thread.

[TheRevenantHero]

Mounts, transmog and other Visual advantages, specially super rare mounts, transmog etc. Is an advantage to win vs other players. Is P2W.

No it's not. There is no fucking advantage because you're not buying player power. Mounts/pets/transmog being bought are NOT an advantage. Are you stronger than another player with those items? Absolutely not.

[This One Time At Bandcamp]

No its not.. Anyone can make gold.

Besides, goldfarmers make way more gold than the average player is willing to buy tokens for.
Its pretty rare to see average players buy 25tokens (Thats 500euro, to buy 1 mount)

On my server you can get around 2 boost, for one token.. Thats 2 tokens a month, just to get the weekly done.
So 40euro extra a month, for content which is expected for average players to achieve anyway.


Having the WoW token is NOT pay to win, because;

1. You can easily make the tokens worth of gold in a week. So there is no real incentive to buy gold.
2. There will always be gold sellers, farming insane amounts of gold and selling on sketchy websites.

[rhorle]

Again, don't get caught up on the word "win". Nobody is saying you will get gladiator or beat mythic+25s by spending real money in WoW. It is very simple, you're spending real money to get anything non-cosmetic inside the game. Buying cosmetics is not typically called P2W. The in-game advantage is key to the distinction, and cosmetics are by definition, well, just cosmetic.

But the word win is the main factor here. You say cosmetics are just cosmetic but I outlined cases where they were not just cosmetic and offered a possible advantage. Yet you dismiss by saying the word win isn't important. It is easy to say you are correct when you ignore irrefutable proof of flaws in your argument.

[Schizoide]

Yes clearly the ability to buy tokens to buy gear is pay to win.

I don't understand why there is a 60 page topic about such an inconfusable and clear thing.

People who argue it's not p2w are delusional.

From skimming the thread, it looks like a lot of people are getting caught up on the word "win", like P2W means you're buying gladiator or mythic raid loot. I tried to disabuse them of that but you know, it's the internet.

@rhorle: Sorry, I must have missed your post. Which cosmetics offer an in-game advantage? If you point to (for example) a usable item that makes you as short as a gnome so you're harder to see in PvP, I wouldn't classify that as cosmetics and it would count as P2W to me.

[Askyl]

From skimming the thread, it looks like a lot of people are getting caught up on the word "win", like P2W means you're buying gladiator or mythic raid loot. I tried to disabuse them of that but you know, it's the internet.

Because it's the Win part that is important. It doesn't matter what anyone else here think when the definition is that you buy advantages that trumps skill or time. Like, buying abilities or spells no one else can use unless they buy them.

Nothing in WoW is P2W by definion. People can create their own definition of the word if they'd like, but that doesn't really make them right except within their own reality with their own personal defintion of the word.

And if they hate P2W and WoW is P2W according to them, just log out of MMO-champ and quit WoW lol.

[TheRevenantHero]

Because it's the Win part that is important. It doesn't matter what anyone else here think when the definition is that you buy advantages that trumps skill or time. Like, buying abilities or spells no one else can use unless they buy them.

Nothing in WoW is P2W by definion. People can create their own definition of the word if they'd like, but that doesn't really make them right except within their own reality with their own personal defintion of the word.

And if they hate P2W and WoW is P2W according to them, just log out of MMO-champ and quit WoW lol.

You can't just skip 50 levels of content in WoW without spending money. therefore, WoW is p2w because you are spending real money to purchase player power and are gaining an advantage over players NOT spending real money.

[P for Pancetta]

Yes, you are right. So i'm going to stop right here for now. Since is clear that this discussion is more with people who are using this P2W scheme in order to avoid paying USD on Game Time. But that is ok, its their time and gold they are selling to other player so he/she can win the game.

Boosts are P2W too. 16hrs or less, is still a Time advantage.

WoW Token gold that provide all kind of advantages like Visual, Economic, Progression in the game, Time, etc. Is P2W too.

Yes exactly that's the definition of P2W

This is a game. The visual, economic and progress parts are all parts of the game, getting any of this without playing and thus paying is P2W.

[rhorle]

Cosmetics aren't p2w. So anyone who says it is? They're arguing for the sake of arguing because they're 100% wrong. The only clear cut example of p2w in WoW is the character boost.

Not even ones that offer an in-game advantage? Trial of style has other players in the group rate your transmog. So cosmetic gear bought from the store can offer an advantage in that case. Buying the toys can help you get enough to get the achievement for a herb-picking mount. Store pets offer a distinct advantage in pet battles. Those battles can reward XP or be done for world quests. There are even some store pets that are no longer sold that offer a big advantage.

That is the problem when you have subjective definitions for pay to win or overly broad definitions.

[korijenkins]

Yes, you are wrong.

Boosts are irrelevant because you buy boosts from people that have completed the challenging, co-operative content before you.
Who cares if ArthasdkLoL buys a boost from a guild that killed the end-boss a month ago.

The same goes for M+. You can't buy your way to the world 1st 22 key for a specific dungeon.
Buying your way to KSM isn't pay to win it is Pay to Mediocrity. Which is a fitting description for the idiots who buys such boosts.

The only thing that could be argued that is P2W are BOEs. But it should be noted that all top-end guilds hate BOEs and constantly appeal to Blizzard to lessen the amount of BOEs that you can equip.
But still it requires the absolute best of the best player to use the advantage of a couple of BOEs in order to get world 1st.

Can you pay your way to mediocrity in WoW? Yes
Can you pay your way to world 1st in raids, PvP or M+? No

WoW is not P2W

Laughably dumb take. WoW is pay to win by definition that you can use real money for in-game goods and services via a sponsored method given by Blizzard and the paid boosts.

In fact, the paid boosts alone are a pay to win mechanic.

Just because the game doesn't have some gimmick loot box gacha system in place doesn't mean it's not pay to win.

[rhorle]

No it's not. There is no fucking advantage because you're not buying player power. Mounts/pets/transmog being bought are NOT an advantage. Are you stronger than another player with those items? Absolutely not.

You are not buying player power with a token either though. You can use a token to buy mounts, pets, transmog, or other similar non-power items. Are you stronger then another player just because you by a token? Absolutely not. Are you stronger then another player because you buy a boost? Sure but that is with or without using a token. A token is not pay to win. It is just a micro transaction.

[TheRevenantHero]

You are not buying player power with a token either though. You can use a token to buy mounts, pets, transmog, or other similar non-power items. Are you stronger then another player just because you by a token? Absolutely not. Are you stronger then another player because you buy a boost? Sure but that is with or without using a token. A token is not pay to win. It is just a micro transaction.

Selling a token grants you immediate large piles of gold. That is 100% an advantage over other players that would need to spend HOURS to grind up. By your logic, p2w doesn't exist in games at all because they're just "transactions".