1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, to be clear, you think everyone should pay for any increase in the values of their 401k, every single year? And pay when they actually cash it out?
    When did "the wealthy" expand to include "everyone"?


  2. #322
    If we would just do like Sanders proposed and tax all income as income regardless of source after $250,000 a year, I think much of this could be reduced.

    But would also have to throw in a stipulation that that includes all income globally at that rate with any taxes paid to those other nations being deducted from how much they owed here. So they couldn't try and claim they made it out of the nation to try and get around it.

    Of course I would also like to pass a law doing similar to corporate profits where they had to pay the total amount they would have paid if it were 100% all based here with what they paid to other nations deducted so they couldn't shop around either. If they do business here, they pay like they are based here.
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  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, to be clear, you think everyone should pay for any increase in the values of their 401k, every single year? And pay when they actually cash it out?
    No, but I get why you'd rather I made that argument.

    Where does the problem come in? Most people's plans didn't go up by millions of dollars and so wouldn't be caught in any kind of tax net cast to address this issue.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Taxation is transactional. New transaction, new instance of taxation. That's not "double taxation". If your stocks gained value, that's a capital gains tax. If you sold them, that's an income tax. Different taxes on different things.

    And I'm not seeing how it's even a problem, since we're exclusively talking about the wealthy, here, who cannot possibly be pushed into hardship by such a tax.

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    I'm not sure you understand what a "wealth tax" is and how it would be applied, if you think middle-class people's retirement funds are going to be hit by this.

    The Sanders/Warren proposal only targeted those with more than $20 million. Stop fearmongering about people's retirement plans.
    And they are taxed, when they sell those stocks.

    People want to tax them, just for holding stocks. That's not transactional. That's the difference, and you are also making that mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    When did "the wealthy" expand to include "everyone"?
    And therein lies the problem, this is all about punishing the wealthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    No, but I get why you'd rather I made that argument.
    In the end, this is just an attempt to tax the wealthy, again.

    If it's about the increase in portfolios, then tax all stock portfolios. At least then you'd be consistent.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And they are taxed, when they sell those stocks.

    People want to tax them, just for holding stocks. That's not transactional. That's the difference, and you are also making that mistake.
    You're right, I mischaracterized; there's transactional taxes and capital gains taxes. Your capital gains in value, that value gets taxed.

    And therein lies the problem, this is all about punishing the wealthy.
    Boring and dishonest.

    Are you arguing that "taxes are punishment"?
    If "yes", why do you want to punish the poor and working class, rather than the wealthy, who can afford it?

    If "no", then you know you're lying, and you should cut it out.


  6. #326
    While typically @Machismo has a thing where he goes onto a libertarian rant, and while I am jumping in on this one a bit late so might not have the proper information, they shouldn't tax them when the value of their stock goes up as that gain isn't realized till they cash it out.

    When they cash it out though, as well as any dividends it pays, SHOULD be taxed as normal income. The only other time it should be taxed without actually being sold is when they are transferred or inherited by another at which point the inheritance taxes should treat it as any other asset and tax it accordingly. But also, I feel the inheritance exemption is too low. Like maybe exempt the first 5 million, then tax the rest.
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  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post

    In the end, this is just an attempt to tax the wealthy, again.

    If it's about the increase in portfolios, then tax all stock portfolios. At least then you'd be consistent.
    No, it's just a progressive tax system, which is already what we have. Nothing out of the ordinary. You might not like it, but the vast majority of Americans are fine with it.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    While typically @Machismo has a thing where he goes onto a libertarian rant, and while I am jumping in on this one a bit late so might not have the proper information, they shouldn't tax them when the value of their stock goes up as that gain isn't realized till they cash it out.

    When they cash it out though, as well as any dividends it pays, SHOULD be taxed as normal income. The only other time it should be taxed without actually being sold is when they are transferred or inherited by another at which point the inheritance taxes should treat it as any other asset and tax it accordingly. But also, I feel the inheritance exemption is too low. Like maybe exempt the first 5 million, then tax the rest.
    still waiting for a new spaghetti and cardboard recipe from him

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're right, I mischaracterized; there's transactional taxes and capital gains taxes. Your capital gains in value, that value gets taxed.



    Boring and dishonest.

    Are you arguing that "taxes are punishment"?
    If "yes", why do you want to punish the poor and working class, rather than the wealthy, who can afford it?

    If "no", then you know you're lying, and you should cut it out.
    So, would those capital gains apply to a 401k increasing in value?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    No, it's just a progressive tax system, which is already what we have. Nothing out of the ordinary. You might not like it, but the vast majority of Americans are fine with it.
    of course they would be fine with it. It's free money from other people...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    While typically @Machismo has a thing where he goes onto a libertarian rant, and while I am jumping in on this one a bit late so might not have the proper information, they shouldn't tax them when the value of their stock goes up as that gain isn't realized till they cash it out.

    When they cash it out though, as well as any dividends it pays, SHOULD be taxed as normal income. The only other time it should be taxed without actually being sold is when they are transferred or inherited by another at which point the inheritance taxes should treat it as any other asset and tax it accordingly. But also, I feel the inheritance exemption is too low. Like maybe exempt the first 5 million, then tax the rest.
    Look at you making all sorts of sense.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, would those capital gains apply to a 401k increasing in value?
    Since we're talking about a wealth tax, that would depend on the total assets of the individual in question, and how much of those assets cross the wealth threshold involved.

    This is what I was getting at when I stated you were either being dishonest or did not understand what a "wealth tax" means.

    Would it apply to every 401k? No.


  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    But also, I feel the inheritance exemption is too low. Like maybe exempt the first 5 million, then tax the rest.
    What exactly do you think the exemption is right now? $5m is less than half of what the current exemption is in the US for one parent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    What exactly do you think the exemption is right now? $5m is less than half of what the current exemption is in the US for one parent.
    It is currently 11.6 million per person, so the child can get about 23.4 million from both parents before taxes kick in from what I understand. I meant 5 million total regardless of how many parents its from.
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  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Since we're talking about a wealth tax, that would depend on the total assets of the individual in question, and how much of those assets cross the wealth threshold involved.

    This is what I was getting at when I stated you were either being dishonest or did not understand what a "wealth tax" means.

    Would it apply to every 401k? No.
    A 401k is inherently no different than their stock portfolios. People are pushing that this is income, when it's not really income... at least not yet. It's taxed when sold. if the push is to tax it every single year, and when sold, then that is a very dangerous precedent.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, how much did he "steal?"

    You can't even say what is "appropriate," which is the problem.
    Who can tell? Building an empire whilst siphoning off sales tax revenues is immense. One figure I did find that in 2016 Amazon and its 3 party sellers did not collect sales tax for the state of South Carolina which amounted to $57 million. Texas lost $269 million from 2005-2009. Amazon did not collect sales taxes until 2017.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Who can tell? Building an empire whilst siphoning off sales tax revenues is immense. One figure I did find that in 2016 Amazon and its 3 party sellers did not collect sales tax for the state of South Carolina which amounted to $57 million. Texas lost $269 million from 2005-2009. Amazon did not collect sales taxes until 2017.
    This is your argument, so to throw your hands up and say, "who knows" is a bit of a problem.

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    A 401k is inherently no different than their stock portfolios. People are pushing that this is income, when it's not really income... at least not yet. It's taxed when sold. if the push is to tax it every single year, and when sold, then that is a very dangerous precedent.
    Is there a reason you keep dodging the central point, that a wealth tax, by definition, only affects those above a certain (high) wealth level to begin with?

    Again, the Sanders/Warren proposal started that line at $20 million.

    Yes, without sufficient income, your wealth might shrink a bit at a time until you dip below that $20m mark. But then it'd stop. That's how it works.


  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    of course they would be fine with it. It's free money from other people...
    Huh? Most voters pay taxes, I know I do. I also understand why I do, but some people who make much less money than I do don't. So I'm already being "punished" by this system as are most of the people we're talking about.

  18. #338
    I decided to put on my thinking cap and wonder what would happen if a country (ex Switzerland) had a wealth tax (they do! ~1%) would all of their billionaires run away?

    The answer is they have more than double the per capita billionaires that the US does. The only "nations" that have a higher per-capita amount are Hong Kong and Singapore. I guess its not much of an impediment.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    It is currently 11.6 million per person, so the child can get about 23.4 million from both parents before taxes kick in from what I understand. I meant 5 million total regardless of how many parents its from.
    Did you mean the exemption is too high then? Because what you said is that it's too low.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Did you mean the exemption is too high then? Because what you said is that it's too low.
    Yeah, might to say the exemption was too high. My bad.
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