What problems do you have with Final Fantasy 14?

[justandulas]

Ff14 players aren’t as toxic as wows for the most part, but they are way more Defensive.

Say you dislike any part of ff14, and the pitchforks come out

Example: I don’t personally like the feminine art style, which is fine if someone else does, but because I think it looks dainty and feminine (even by ff or jrpg standards) I’d be crucified in the community

[TheRevenantHero]

Players that care about their performance are being persecuted in the game by the developers and they encourage the entitled players to snitch on them.
It can quite obvious be seen by the fact that players that are competitive and care about their performance have to go "underground" in order to play with like-minded people.

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WoW has, in regards to PVE, an official ladders for M+, you also have a thriving out-of-game ladder-tool in the shape of raider.io that is going to be implemented in-game. In regards for raiding you also have an official ladder.
You also have very well developed performance measuring tools from dps-meters to logs, not "underground freedom tools" like in FFXIV.

All that means that you can compare yourself to your peers on an individual level to a group level. There can be no competition and competitiveness without a robust system for measuring performance.
The developers of WoW supports the use of such tools, both in-game and out of game. The developers of FFXIV do nothing of such sort, they actually persecute and encourage those that wont' do their best to snitch and harass those that want to be the best they can be.

LOL NO THEY'RE NOT. You're just not allowed to shame people for their performance. Competitive players aren't forced to "go underground". They just can't be dicks to other players. Heavens forbid people not being allowed to be toxic and shame people in the game like in WoW right? You don't get suspended from FFXIV unless you're a dick to other players. You can easily talk to a person about performance in a constructive way. It's obvious you're not capable of being anything but toxic and got suspended from FFXIV for harassing players about their performance.

[justandulas]

LOL NO THEY'RE NOT. You're just not allowed to shame people for their performance. Competitive players aren't forced to "go underground". They just can't be dicks to other players. Heavens forbid people not being allowed to be toxic and shame people in the game like in WoW right?

How can anyone improve at the elite end, without being called out for their failures and learning from them?

Part of being an adult is having thick skin and being able to take any criticism within bounds

[TheRevenantHero]

How can anyone improve at the elite end, without being called out for their failures and learning from them?

Part of being an adult is having thick skin and being able to take any criticism within bounds

You can easily talk to a person about their performance without being a dick about it. If you can't critique someone without threading in insults or belittling the person then you're not a critic. You're just an asshole.

[Katchii]

WoW has, in regards to PVE, an official ladders for M+, you also have a thriving out-of-game ladder-tool in the shape of raider.io that is going to be implemented in-game. In regards for raiding you also have an official ladder.
You also have very well developed performance measuring tools from dps-meters to logs, not "underground freedom tools" like in FFXIV.

Those "underground freedom tools" are perfectly viable, usable and permissible so long as you do not discuss it in-game and persecute others over it. The developers know about it, and can't/ won't ban you just because you have it. What you get banned for is advertising it in-game by either explicitly talking about it, or calling people out for their performance (which you'd only be able to measure if you have that tool) and being a dick about it.

All that means that you can compare yourself to your peers on an individual level to a group level. There can be no competition and competitiveness without a robust system for measuring performance.

While it's not official, FFXIV does have a system that can measure performance. Just because it's not officially supported does not mean it doesn't exist.

The developers of WoW supports the use of such tools, both in-game and out of game. The developers of FFXIV do nothing of such sort, they actually persecute and encourage those that wont' do their best to snitch and harass those that want to be the best they can be.

This sounds more like you want to be able to harass and persecute those who don't perform to the level you want and are upset that you can't in FFXIV. There is a community of people who do exactly what you're saying you want, you just have to be careful how you approach it in-game (meaning, don't advertise it and don't treat people like shit because they don't perform) because the tool is against the TOS.

[Echo of Soul]

How can anyone improve at the elite end, without being called out for their failures and learning from them?

Part of being an adult is having thick skin and being able to take any criticism within bounds

I think there's something called constructive criticism which is different from being a douche bag.
It's very easy to help others improve without being toxic and it actually has a chance of making a difference. You can't treat people like dogs and yell at them when they make a mistake and expect them to listen to you.

[justandulas]

You can easily talk to a person about their performance without being a dick about it. If you can't critique someone without threading in insults or belittling the person then you're not a critic. You're just an asshole.

I did say within bounds. I'm not down to harrass, truly belittle, or any of that crap... but there's nothing wrong with a "Hey bro, wtf are you doing? this is the 10th time you've f this up tonight. last chance before we gotta remove u bro, sorry"

Part of being an adult is being told this and that and learning to take it without acting like a child. Someone who can take criticism will, 100% of the time, be a better gamer and a person than someone who's thin skinned and easily triggered

[Katchii]

How can anyone improve at the elite end, without being called out for their failures and learning from them?

Part of being an adult is having thick skin and being able to take any criticism within bounds

For those that actually want to improve, they will appreciate being called out and won't report you or get offended by someone doing so, depending on how they're being called out.

It's not just about "being an adult" it's about the reason people do things too.

If a family is just having fun in their backyard playing football, they likely won't appreciate having every tiny NFL rule infraction be called out and have their every move critiqued for how they could do it better...because that's not the point.

If someone were on a competitive team, going to practice, they're there to get critiqued and taught the rules.

Most content in FFXIV is the equivalent of a fun pick-up game at the park where people are just trying to have fun, enjoy themselves, maybe learn something if THEY want to by asking questions and just getting out and exercising.

The high end players looking to improve typically do the fun stuff on the side to get their exercise, but also engage in actual training with other like minded people in separate content/ situations.

Part of being an adult, or at least maturing, is being able to read a situation or at the very least get the context of the situation, before addressing it so that you address it with that context in mind and act accordingly.

Calling people out and holding them accountable based on their performance just because you're tracking it, as some kind of default behavior in whatever content you happen to be doing with them, is not acting like an adult. That's being a dick, IMO, unles it's content where that kind of behavior is expected and encouraged. FFXIV Random Duty Finder is not that content.

[justandulas]

I think there's something called constructive criticism which is different from being a douche bag.
It's very easy to help others improve without being toxic and it actually has a chance of making a difference. You can't treat people like dogs and yell at them when they make a mistake and expect them to listen to you.

"Within bounds". Obviously, people can and do go WAY too far with that and i'm never gonna sign off on that nonsense

[Katchii]

You can easily talk to a person about their performance without being a dick about it. If you can't critique someone without threading in insults or belittling the person then you're not a critic. You're just an asshole.

Also this, 10000% this.

[TheRevenantHero]

I did say within bounds. I'm not down to harrass, truly belittle, or any of that crap... but there's nothing wrong with a "Hey bro, wtf are you doing? this is the 10th time you've f this up tonight. last chance before we gotta remove u bro, sorry"

Part of being an adult is being told this and that and learning to take it without acting like a child. Someone who can take criticism will, 100% of the time, be a better gamer and a person than someone who's thin skinned and easily triggered

So instead of being constructive towards a person, you belittle them and threaten to boot them. That's definition of childish and harassment.

[justandulas]

So instead of being constructive towards a person, you belittle them and threaten to boot them. That's definition of childish and harassment.

Nowhere have i ever belittled or threatened anyone in all my years gaming like that, but i'm pointing out an example of it done like a man without any nonsense. Also, notice how i said in my example the 10th time. Not the first. It's implied they've had talks if its their 10th mistake on X part of the fight, and by then, that's about as good of a "hit the bench" msg as one can get really.

You are being intentionally obtuse about this my dude. Removing someone who cant get a fight after screwing it up 10+ times isn't toxic. It'd be more toxic to submit them to more

[TheRevenantHero]

Nowhere have i ever belittled or threatened anyone in all my years gaming like that, but i'm pointing out an example of it done like a man without any nonsense. Also, notice how i said in my example the 10th time. Not the first. It's implied they've had talks if its their 10th mistake on X part of the fight, and by then, that's about as good of a "hit the bench" msg as one can get really.

You are being intentionally obtuse about this my dude. Removing someone who cant get a fight after screwing it up 10+ times isn't toxic. It'd be more toxic to submit them to more

"Hey bro, wtf are you doing? this is the 10th time you've f this up tonight. last chance before we gotta remove u bro, sorry" is a childish and toxic thing to say. You didn't say you tried explaining things to them. As a matter of fact, your language implies you expect them to just know what they're doing. In all my years of playing MMOs, I've never seen a person fuck up the same way 10 times if they were given an explanation. I've only seen it happen when the raid leader expected everyone to just know exactly what they were doing and scolded people for asking questions.

You never once said that the person messing up was told what to do. You led with the toxic comment. And if you're saying something like "hey bro wtf are you doing" then you absolutely have belittled people and were lying when you said you haven't.

[T-34]

Those "underground freedom tools" are perfectly viable, usable and permissible so long as you do not discuss it in-game and persecute others over it. The developers know about it, and can't/ won't ban you just because you have it. What you get banned for is advertising it in-game by either explicitly talking about it, or calling people out for their performance (which you'd only be able to measure if you have that tool) and being a dick about it.



While it's not official, FFXIV does have a system that can measure performance. Just because it's not officially supported does not mean it doesn't exist.



This sounds more like you want to be able to harass and persecute those who don't perform to the level you want and are upset that you can't in FFXIV. There is a community of people who do exactly what you're saying you want, you just have to be careful how you approach it in-game (meaning, don't advertise it and don't treat people like shit because they don't perform) because the tool is against the TOS.

Why would I keep playing a game that puts players that don't want to do their best and who have no respect for the time of their fellow gamer, or toxic players with another word, higher than players that care about their performance who respect the time of their fellow gamer?

And it seems that we agree on that WoW activly supports and encourages competitive group play, while FFXIV doesn't.
In WoW you aren't being protected by the game if you are lazy and bad, in FFXIV you are.

[TheRevenantHero]

And that's just it. Most of the defenses for this sort if behavior are stories that strain credulity. They just want to claim that these anti-unicorns exist that are awful in every imaginable way so that they can back up their whole, "THEY'RE the ones being toxic just by being here, I MUST yell at them!" nonsense.

Yuuuuuup pretty much. And then they call FFXIV a terrible community after they get banned for belittling other players. Which is fine because then they go back to the toxic community of WoW and don't harass FFXIV players anymore.

[TheRevenantHero]

Why would I keep playing a game that puts players that don't want to do their best and who have no respect for the time of their fellow gamer, or toxic players with another word, higher than players that care about their performance who respect the time of their fellow gamer?

And it seems that we agree on that WoW activly supports and encourages competitive group play, while FFXIV doesn't.
In WoW you aren't being protected by the game if you are lazy and bad, in FFXIV you are.

Translation: why would I keep playing a game where I can't harass and belittle other players because they're not playing the game I want them to when I can return to a game with a community that is built on making other players feel like garbage?

[Katchii]

Why would I keep playing a game that puts players that don't want to do their best and who have no respect for the time of their fellow gamer, or toxic players with another word, higher than players that care about their performance who respect the time of their fellow gamer?

If you don't want to play, that's fine.

But you see this same exact shit in WoW as you do in FFXIV (the specific example you're trying to call out here).

Just because the tools are supported doesn't mean every WoW player uses them, cares about that stuff, or somehow automatically respects you and your time more than the average FFXIV player.

If you honestly think that WoW has a completely different set and type of player, you're crazy.

And it seems that we agree on that WoW activly supports and encourages competitive group play, while FFXIV doesn't.

WoW actively supports the use of the TOOLS. That doesn't not mean every single WoW player uses them, cares about them, and actively pursues bettering their performance.

FFXIV, while it doesn't ACTIVELY support the tools, it still has them and people use them to great effect all the time.

In WoW you aren't being protected by the game if you are lazy and bad, in FFXIV you are.

Which, IMO, is a good thing. It's a GAME. Players SHOULD be protected from elitist assholes who have their own agenda and want to actively ridicule, harass and be a dick about their performance when all they want to do is complete the content and have fun. I will absolutely 100% agree that people should also be called out on their performance in content where performance actually matters, like Extreme's, and Savage. Leave that crap out of the Normal PUG content.

Again, it just sounds like you just want to be able to harass people over their performance if it doesn't meet your standards and are mad FFXIV doesn't let you do that openly. That's a good thing, IMO. Because it keeps the competitiveness out of the casual stuff, and let's those who want to do, do it. It doesn't have to be some universally applied mindset like you seem to think it is, because the WoW community doesn't even do that.

[Big Thanks]

Translation: why would I keep playing a game where I can't harass and belittle other players because they're not playing the game I want them to when I can return to a game with a community that is built on making other players feel like garbage?

I cant be toxic to others?!?! Bro...thats kinda toxic

The good ol switcheroo

[T-34]

Translation: why would I keep playing a game where I can't harass and belittle other players because they're not playing the game I want them to when I can return to a game with a community that is built on making other players feel like garbage?

It seems that you and I have the exact same opinion You just have that opinion about WoW, I have it about FFXIV.

[Merie]

I feel like Meoni and Mr. Happy are more of the equivalent of Taliesin & Evitel. Always positive about the game. If they have anything bad to say, it's about their disinterest in Zenos and Fandaniel.

Zepla at least voiced reservations about the grind required for the Bozja relics, or the nature of the Bozja game systems, the nightmare that is housing, and so on.

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Also, Meoni puts out a video on every single scrap of FFXIV news, no matter how insignificant it is. New statue on the Square Enix store? Posts a video. One new screenshot on the patch website? Posts a 10 minute long video. New McDonals promotion for a Black Chocobo mount? Posts a video. Etc. I only stay subbed to him to see in my feed if I missed anything that might interest me but hardly watch his videos. Whereas Zepla only really posts when there is something really worth talking about, or a topic she is really interested in.

He called out Square pretty hard for one of the new races (hrothgar I think?) having to fanta to change their hairstyle when anyone else can just use the salon.