How to rebuild the Horde.

[Varodoc]

As edit in previous message.
All the Horde concept is wrong now. All their leaders are thornless cowards. All your characters have to be rebuilt.

-----

To give a counterexample.
From the kaldorei, all you have to do is make Tyrande do something for his people and if not go away.
The "new" Maiev can do her job.

Malfurion is saved because she can say that she now she begins to heal the lands of the Kaldorei and things like that. Well, he already gave his head for his town ... so now he's pretty good.

The Horde playerbase is funny. The current Horde leaders are not "cowards", they are simply mentally stable.

Who wasn't a coward? Sylvanas wasn't a coward? Sure, but Sylvanas also dragged the Horde down a hole and defied everything that the Horde stands for, such as honor and tradition.

Maybe "coward" leaders are better for the Horde, there's really nothing left to say on the subject. People can whine about the current Horde leadership all they want, it won't ever change the fact that 2/4 Warchiefs were crazy warmongers, and one out of the 2 sane Warchiefs left was useless and put Sylvanas on the throne.

So tell me, are Baine and co. "cowards" because they seek mutual cooperation with the Alliance instead of war? Well then, maybe cowards are exactly what the Horde needs to prosper.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Teldrassil will grow back anyway, it was only the top that burned while the base and the roots are still intact.

Though it should have never burned anyway given how it's a titanic tree with trees being very hard to put on fire in real life, with lots of water inside it, not counting the druids and other magic users that should have been able of putting any fire down with their powers, and that simple catapults (that shouldn't have been able of landing any projectile on it given the huge distance between Teldrassil and the shore) with simple fire projectiles wouldn't have been able of setting any real fire on it.

Thanks again Blizzard writers for your genius story ! Just as much as making Sylvanas warchief, while Vol'jin should have known far better even close to death than making her his successor, and having the Horde follow her like Garrosh, in even more docile, with Saurfang needing the attack on Teldrassil to realize that what he was doing was wrong and that Sylvanas was just as bad news as Gul'dan, Blackhand and Garrosh, while Eitrigg and Rexxar and most of the Horde forgot their honor and morals and became warmongers for most of BFA.

[geco]

The Horde playerbase is funny. The current Horde leaders are not "cowards", they are simply mentally stable.

Who wasn't a coward? Sylvanas wasn't a coward? Sure, but Sylvanas also dragged the Horde down a hole and defied everything that the Horde stands for, such as honor and tradition.

Maybe "coward" leaders are better for the Horde, there's really nothing left to say on the subject. People can whine about the current Horde leadership all they want, it won't ever change the fact that 2/4 Warchiefs were crazy warmongers, and one out of the 2 sane Warchiefs left was useless and put Sylvanas on the throne.

So tell me, are Baine and co. "cowards" because they seek mutual cooperation with the Alliance instead of war? Well then, maybe cowards are exactly what the Horde needs to prosper.

So you don't understand the Horde.
The Horde is Honor and Family. (Every time the other option comes up they tell you right away that it is wrong and it is mechanically impossible in WoW).
So Teldrazzil not honorable and it is more since Malfurion and Tyrande went to Thrall's wedding and that the kaldorei are relatives of the Eternal Night they also go against the concept of Family.

How many leaders of the Horde rebelled against Sylvanas because she has no Honor? None? good because they are cowards.

When were the leaders revealed? When do they return to Jaina's brother a zombie without a brain? Not.
They are revealed when Sylvanas decides to attack Baien. When they see the possibility of being attacked. They are revealed because she is afraid. Not because it's "right for the Horde."

So if all the leaders of the current Horde are cowards.
Jemploes of Brave Leaders? Voljin and Caien.

----------
On the other hand, in the Kaldorei, how many of their leaders are cowards or useless. Just Tyrande.
You have Malfurion, Shandris, and Maiev to work on making a better lore. You have the tools there are many ways to make a good plot with them. And in some of the posts on the subject they talked about that.

But with the Horde. There are no tools. All the PCs are broken and they all have to grow up a lot before being role models.

Except Talanji. That he is saved because he was not when he passed.

----

Teldrassil will grow back anyway, it was only the top that burned while the base and the roots are still intact.

Whether the tree grows back is irrelevant. The important thing is the number of civilians killed and the feeling of "security".
But that the Kaldorei have tools and space for a good plot and rebuild and seek justice I am sure.
(That if you have to keep complaining because otherwise Blizzard won't put it on you .. Like so many stories that don't end)

[Varodoc]

So you don't understand the Horde.
The Horde is Honor and Family.

Yeah so have fun with the new system where every race and every word matters. Nothing says "family" more than a council of equals.

How many leaders of the Horde rebelled against Sylvanas because she has no Honor? None? good because they are cowards.

Then Sylvanas is also a coward, since she rebelled against Garrosh (defied the LAWFUL WARCHIEF) only when she had guarantee from Vol'jin and co. and the Alliance that others would be helping her in the rebellion.

[geco]

Yeah so have fun with the new system where every race and every word matters. Nothing says "family" more than a council of equals.

A council of people without Honor or thorns. We are saved.

Then Sylvanas is also a coward, since she rebelled against Garrosh (defied the LAWFUL WARCHIEF) only when she had guarantee from Vol'jin and co. and the Alliance that others would be helping her in the rebellion.

Sylvanas never had honor so it doesn't affect her. She was always the "weirdo" of the group. And this brings us to the even more difficult subject. How to fix the renegades.
But there I am sure that there are no real answers.

[qwerty123456]

A council of people without Honor or thorns. We are saved.



Sylvanas never had honor so it doesn't affect her. She was always the "weirdo" of the group. And this brings us to the even more difficult subject. How to fix the renegades.
But there I am sure that there are no real answers.

What's your definition of Honor? Is it blindly following a genocidal monster?


You fix the Horde by taking the Orcs and sending them to a savage planet with no technology and let them survive and work together. Just make sure there are no other sentient creatures on the planet for them to wipe out.

[Darth-Piekus]

Yeah so have fun with the new system where every race and every word matters. Nothing says "family" more than a council of equals.


Then Sylvanas is also a coward, since she rebelled against Garrosh (defied the LAWFUL WARCHIEF) only when she had guarantee from Vol'jin and co. and the Alliance that others would be helping her in the rebellion.

Actually the biggest coward of a character is Sylvannas. She is afraid to die so she puts the Forsaken as a Shield first,then the Valkyr,then the Valkyr Queen, then the Horde,then Azhara, then N'zoth and then tries to change a System because she doesn't want to end up to the Maw so let's fuck up everyone so she can avoid that place. Under all this bravado hides a scared little girl? Death claims us all but she sure is trying to find pitiful excuses to try and avoid that inevitable end for every mortal creature. Is that what people adore so much? If that is the case then I wish the Cowardly Peace Council will stay for many years just to make every Warmonger salty with tears.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The people of the Horde who followed Sylvanas had no more honor that the orcs of the Old Horde from the beggining of the Draenei genocide to the end of the Dark Portal events.

[Mungho]

The writers have completely destroyed the horde by having them commit genocide. They made a playable faction commit what they implicitly call genocide. And follow genocidal warchiefs twice. How can you recover from that? And they're already laying the groundwork for the horde to start the next war against the alliance after SL.

[geco]

The writers have completely destroyed the horde by having them commit genocide. They made a playable faction commit what they implicitly call genocide. And follow genocidal warchiefs twice. How can you recover from that? And they're already laying the groundwork for the horde to start the next war against the alliance after SL.

The worst thing is that they leave us two options:
Or the Horde starts the war and they are the bad guys.
Or Tyrande starts the war. And the Horde are still the bad guys.

[Jackstraw]

It is much better than BFA. But I feel like it doesn't solve the problems at all.
But if it would at least make some NPCs of the Horde now see them with good eyes. (Lothamer)

I tried to keep the current lore chops and present them in a more coherent way. Also, try as I might, I'd very much like to see a new cast in the spotlight.

I'm fine with Alleria, Turalyon and Khadgar: although historic figures, their legacy comes from a time where characters had no... well, character, aside from a few lines from a narrator's standpoint and some old forgotten lore. Khadgar had ample space to find his legs, Alleria and Turalyon can go, but for the love of god W3 cast has to go at this point.

The writers are different, the staff is different, their stories are done. Let them rest, build some new characters, learn from the Nathanos fiasco, do not ever pull a Genn or Shaw ever again and just go with it.

[username993720]

By introducing Ogres and Forest Trolls into the fold and getting rid of Blood elves and Nightborne. Also, reintroducing an Orc-only Warchief, instead of a council and reverting the Horde to its old glory, when it was savage and evil.

[Mungho]

The worst thing is that they leave us two options:
Or the Horde starts the war and they are the bad guys.
Or Tyrande starts the war. And the Horde are still the bad guys.

That's it exactly. The horde in its current incarnation has now done so many horrible things, that anything the alliance does to them will seem like just punishment.

[Rendark]

There's nothing you can do to fix it. It's best to just forget about the lore and make up your own.

[thefinalwarden]

They always take the easy way out by just shoving the horde into the villain position. I will accept MoP. You have the horde immediately beginning to question Garry and it felt like a constant tension. They cleared out the chaff and were on their way of looking at the flaws their obsessions with wartime "honor" (KILL AND FIGHT GOOD FIGHT). They could push forward, still be the brutal bunch they are but more of a, don't poke the sleeping bear sort of thing.

But no. Instead we got BfA Sylvana and no one stopping her or telling her no. Nathaniel even looked conflicted in the scene but him going along with it made sense. The orcs going along with it, after having so many points that would guide them in another direction, after trying to restore honor to orcs and the horde? Hell, there were Tauren there as well, and they went along with it? It makes no sense, and yet we went along with it because this time it was "different".

Alliance on the other hand has had the chance. Through Varian. Through Genn. Through Tyrande. To actually be the aggressors, to do things that were cruel, evil, bad, or unjust out of their own tendencies towards racism and religious zeal, and they never pull the trigger.

Alliance must always be the impotent good guys, and horde must always be the incompetent bad guys.

Make the alliance do something bad, like Garrosh/Sylvanas bad. There is no way to justify it on a moral level. There is a way to justify it on a spiteful level though, a twisted hateful level. Doing it will seem like justice on an impulsive level but in actuality brings the alliance down into the dirt and grime and cesspool with the Horde. Bring back the internment camps, start putting bounties on horde races, attack merchants and start picking off small towns before hitting up another horde city. You cannot just have Tyrande prancing around going MURDER with about 3 people following her and call it "Justice" or call it "Alliance going bad."


And then, after have the horde come out on top as the more just group in the battle. That would be more interesting than just sacrificing yet another major horde character to the meat grinder just to keep the Alliance polished and clean and unable to commit anything bad because of human potential/light.

Basically, actually give the horde the chance to actually redeem themselves for once proactively rather than reactively, and let the alliance commit attrocities or at the very least act as the damn aggressor for once in the damn story instead of making them a largely passive entity who only has one job and that is to act as the moral high ground.

[geco]

They always take the easy way out by just shoving the horde into the villain position. I will accept MoP. You have the horde immediately beginning to question Garry and it felt like a constant tension. They cleared out the chaff and were on their way of looking at the flaws their obsessions with wartime "honor" (KILL AND FIGHT GOOD FIGHT). They could push forward, still be the brutal bunch they are but more of a, don't poke the sleeping bear sort of thing.

But no. Instead we got BfA Sylvana and no one stopping her or telling her no. Nathaniel even looked conflicted in the scene but him going along with it made sense. The orcs going along with it, after having so many points that would guide them in another direction, after trying to restore honor to orcs and the horde? Hell, there were Tauren there as well, and they went along with it? It makes no sense, and yet we went along with it because this time it was "different".

Alliance on the other hand has had the chance. Through Varian. Through Genn. Through Tyrande. To actually be the aggressors, to do things that were cruel, evil, bad, or unjust out of their own tendencies towards racism and religious zeal, and they never pull the trigger.

Alliance must always be the impotent good guys, and horde must always be the incompetent bad guys.

Make the alliance do something bad, like Garrosh/Sylvanas bad. There is no way to justify it on a moral level. There is a way to justify it on a spiteful level though, a twisted hateful level. Doing it will seem like justice on an impulsive level but in actuality brings the alliance down into the dirt and grime and cesspool with the Horde. Bring back the internment camps, start putting bounties on horde races, attack merchants and start picking off small towns before hitting up another horde city. You cannot just have Tyrande prancing around going MURDER with about 3 people following her and call it "Justice" or call it "Alliance going bad."


And then, after have the horde come out on top as the more just group in the battle. That would be more interesting than just sacrificing yet another major horde character to the meat grinder just to keep the Alliance polished and clean and unable to commit anything bad because of human potential/light.

Basically, actually give the horde the chance to actually redeem themselves for once proactively rather than reactively, and let the alliance commit attrocities or at the very least act as the damn aggressor for once in the damn story instead of making them a largely passive entity who only has one job and that is to act as the moral high ground.

The point is that Tyrande would have to destroy Ogrimar and then just then she could start to be "bad". Hear how much punishment the Horde should take before the Alliance is the bad guy ... will you drop something to call Horde when they're done?

[shoc]

The Venthyr will help the Horde redeem themselves of their past sins, and the Necrolords will help the Horde remember what Lok'tar Ogar means. These are both inevitable as they're both going to be Allied Races at the end of the expansion.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Your idea sucks and takes the cake when it comes to alliance fanwank. You should be ashamed.

Saying that the is unstable and Horde has an institutional tendency to engage with fascism and genocide is not alliance fanwank. It's a fact.

• The Horde historically has a violent transition in power every 2 years, with Thrall to Garrosh being the only peaceful transition of power.

• The Horde under Blackhand squashed the Frostwolf tribe for not going along with genocide. "What, you're not going to help us eat Draenei babies and pave the path to the Dark Portal with Draenei bones? You're a traitor to Orc-kind and should be eliminated!". There was a lot of infighting, and after Blackhand died at Blackrock mountain, the Horde disintegrated. Lots of Orc on Orc violence in the decades after. The Horde lost the war in BFA, and already the Mag'har Orcs want to try to fight the Alliance again (despite the Alliance having won every single war against the Horde).

• The Troll tribes sure like to fight with each other.

• The Forsaken regularly murder and torture their own family members for the crime of... not joining a horrendously evil regime.

• Goblins habitually sell their own mothers for pocketchange. Gallywix was a slave trader.

• Every Horde player is guilty of betraying their Warchief. Twice.

• Each time the Alliance beats the Horde, the Horde is at risk of fracturing and requires extraordinary changes in leadership in order to try to keep it together.

Contrast that with the Alliance:

• Have been allies firmly united together for the past 30+ years.

• Except for the assassination of King Menethil and Llane Wyrnn, all transistions of power have been peaceful. No head of state has been killed by another Alliance member.

• Has their shit together.

• Collaborates to build up their industry and restore each other's lands and accommodate each other.

"There is only one Alliance, but there has been 7 different Hordes."

I love Horde aesthetics. I think the Horde is cool. That's why I played a Tauren. Doesn't change the fact that the Horde is an extremely corrupt, unstable, and bloody regime.

- - - Updated - - -

The Horde has existed for 39 years since Blackhand became the first Warchief. For those 39 years, there has only been FOUR YEARS where the Horde wasn't a fascist, warmongering regime: the three years under Thrall from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, and the one year Vol'jin was warchief. FOUR YEARS out of 39. The Horde managed to be not evil for 10% of its existence. That speaks for itself.

[enigma77]

Blizzard should do what they do best. Disregard existing lore and make the Horde cool again.

[Clone]

Saying that the is unstable and Horde has an institutional tendency to engage with fascism and genocide is not alliance fanwank. It's a fact.



I love Horde aesthetics. I think the Horde is cool. That's why I played a Tauren. Doesn't change the fact that the Horde is an extremely corrupt, unstable, and bloody regime.

- - - Updated - - -

The Horde has existed for 39 years since Blackhand became the first Warchief. For those 39 years, there has only been FOUR YEARS where the Horde wasn't a fascist, warmongering regime: the three years under Thrall from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, and the one year Vol'jin was warchief. FOUR YEARS out of 39. The Horde managed to be not evil for 10% of its existence. That speaks for itself.

It's funny you think that's that part that's alliance fanwank.