Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Cuppy]

all max level mounts unlocked

Shutupandtakemymoney.jpg

[Captain Proton]

So a game that offers you a full set of BiS gear, all max level mounts unlocked, and gold cap, all with a credit card, is not P2W by your definition, even if unlocking those things in game would take, say, 2 years of 40hour per week gameplay?

The only player power there is the gear:

1) I'm getting them earlier, as he has to wait for the tier to be cleared and sells to start going out.
2) Same drop chance as me, there's no guarantee that either of us will get the BiS to drop first.
3) It's ridiculously easy to make money in this game
4) What advantage is all max level mounts? Talk about a reach lol

[arkanon]

The only player power there is the gear:

1) I'm getting them earlier, as he has to wait for the tier to be cleared and sells to start going out.
2) Same drop chance as me, there's no guarantee that either of us will get the BiS to drop first.
3) It's ridiculously easy to make money in this game
4) What advantage is all max level mounts? Talk about a reach lol

How are you getting it earlier? They enter their details and receive it all, instantly - in the scenario i presented, it would take you two YEARS of 40 hours per week to obtain the same gear. So again, how are you getting it earlier than someone has it on day one, while you have to wait over 700 days to obtain it?

Drop chance? What drop chance? They pay with their credit card, and receive the loot instantly.

honestly, did you even read what you replied to?

Just to be clear, this is obviously a hypothetical scenario, and is directly in response to your claim that if the purchased items are available through normal gameplay, it cannot be P2W.

[kaminaris]

I never said ANYTHING about it being "illegal", and it is NOT an "opinion" - you have agreed to it, and it is a legally binding document that you digitally sign by agreeing to the TOS. For a little additional guidance, the term illegal does not expressly mean criminal law, and even Webster include an additional component to their definition, which basically says "also : not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)". This relates perfectly to my boxing analogy where a low blow is considered an "illegal blow" or "illegal strike".

Actually your analogy is completely irrelevant. Thing is, TOS is not above the law. And there is nothing inherently wrong or illegal about selling TIME you spent on doing something. This is how legally registered companies sell gold here. Despite the existence of token it's still super popular and cheaper.

You cant register a company that sells their time nor services offering delivering "illegal blows" in boxing. Not to mention nature of the "service" is completely different.

[P for Pancetta]

Get what from? Be specific and mark it out.

What, the part that the token and the TCG loot cards are products? That is the common sense of business, what else are they?

Or is it the part where they are 'active' products? That is the common sense of business too, the Token is actively sold, and the product codes of the TCG loot items does not have an expiration date yet.

I've been very specific all throughout. You've failed to reply in kind. But i'll go a step further this time.

What I described only fits 1 of your three lines, but that line does not really count because it is breaking the ToS.

Your definition of P2W is: Credit card -> Purchase item -> Sell item -> Advantage -> P2W

Or as you put it yourself; "Well, I'm just operating on what people have been chanting." Which is a very weak opinion mainly because you're not really committing to it instead you're placing yourself in a position where you can easily jump ship by saying; nah it wasn't my opinion at all, it was theirs. Which is exactly what you do later.

Secondly it's weak because you were arguing with me and I already had said my definition of P2W. but instead of going with that you choose this mess.

Thirdly it does not define it's scope. "Purchase Item" could be anything from diablo gold to a real life spaceship. also the seller of the item could just be about anybody and there is nothing in there saying that the transactions should follow any rules set forth by any party.

It's important to differentiate between the naked definition of the words "pay too win" and the practice as employed by video game developers and exploiters because ANY transaction could be classified as P2W by your definition.

Lets look at this sentence again to learn how not to write fallacies:
My statement: It's important to differentiate between the naked definition of the words "pay too win" and the practice as employed by video game developers and exploiters
My reason: because ANY transaction could be classified as P2W by your definition.
Support of reason: The lack of scope on your definition.

The two others are not even close to the freaking thing you guys have been chanting. It is a mockery, and nothing more.

As you've seen above the two others perfectly fit in with "your" definition because you forgot to define the scope. this is not a big one and I will admit my examples were deliberately broad because that's the space you allowed me to take with your definition. Also there is no "you guys". By referring to me as them and applying to me the attributes of others you're employing yet another fallacy

Which leads us right into my favorite fallacy you made:

have answered you accordingly. Even if you do not agree, the views are there, and I have my proof, moved to adjust to the discussion. I was even open to conceding that the token is Pay2Win but by that, one has to understand, that the TCG tradeable loot, is P2W too - whether you like it or not. There are definitions, and it has been talked about in this thread before, we can't just pick and choose apparently, and each our opinions of what is P2W should follow the definitions and not what we think (see the time discussion for the boost).

I disagreed with you saying on this so you stated what your definition was based on the chants of others:

Well, I'm just operating on what people have been chanting

When pressed on the irrationality of your definition you hit the switch and it's suddenly not your definition anymore:

not even close to the freaking thing you guys have been chanting

It was never my definition and the amount of fallacies in this one sentence is absolutely mind boggling.

In my opinion your arguments are a mockery of human intelligence.

I followed what others have discussed and soon chanted to further people.

That's why I said you should start thinking for yourself, following others has led you astray.

Your first two lines make zero sense to the top

they make sense in the scope you defined.

Currently, from Blizzard's view of business, the token and TCG are active products, nothing more.

You're talking from blizzard's view implying you have inside information. You don't.
I doubt it's intentional on your part but it's a fallacy called appeal to authority; you're trying to give what you say more weight by presenting as if the viewpoint of another with authority. In this case the ultimate authority on the matter Activision-Blizzard.

Also TCG is not an active product. The TCG was cancelled the cards still in circulation are still redeemable but it's not an active product. There are no new cards being producted.

lets boil down this sentence:
1: Factually Incorrect
2: Appealing to Authority
3: Provides 0 arguments or proof how TCG is an active product.
4: finishing with a false dichotomy

Proof it's cancelled and thus not active: https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...ing-card-game/
Information on fallacies employed by you in this single sentence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

We, the players, define if it is P2W, and if we go by the definitions, then even though it could be considered a different business model, it is now granting players an advantage.

Whether a game is P2W is not defined by the players but by the way the exploiters choose to monetize the game. Also this sentence falls apart halfway through due to improper grammar.

We the players define if it is P2W - easy to understand but as stated above it's not correct.
and if we go by the definitions - You posted only one definition not multiple. and I wasn't at all going by the incoherent definitions of others.
then even though it could be considered a different business model - It is a different business model, this is not an opinion. Video games in general have vastly different business models then physical products like trading card games.

it is now granting players an advantage. - It has always given the player an advantage now just now. This is what I said, it changes nothing.

So to boil this sentence down it's
1: Factually incorrect
2: Riddles with fallacies

The most basic definition of P2W: https://www.macmillanthesaurus.com/pay-to-win - note how this definition clearly defines it's scope. Since a loot card is a physical item it does not fall under this definition.
Quickread on gaming business models: https://fourweekmba.com/gaming-industry/

What in this business model makes one credit card purchase better than another?

As I said before: In one of the transactions the beneficiary is the exploiter of the game and in the other case it's anyone else.

And by that phrase, we're back to around pages 5-10 of this thread, where I called it an exclusive P2W compared to Token.

You can call it whatever you want man, but as long as you don't back any of it up with evidence or solid arguments it doesn't mean anything. Also the terms exclusive and inclusive P2W you've invented are another fallacy. Because you've invented them and you've neglected to clearly define their meaning they only serve to confuse and bog down the discussion.

Ps: the red parts are lies, fallacies and general inconsistencies. I only got about half of em.

[rhorle]

Being wrong is no excuse to attack others. The claim was getting a token with little effort in a weeks play with 15 characters. I have proven that it isn't. 35 hours a week is effort. 150k which is your new claim you have added right now is not a token.

So the claim wasn't wrong and I never attacked anyone. You haven't proven that it is hard. You didn't even prove anything at all let alone present something new. The main discussion was with another poster and you just copied what they said with a few accusations of attacks mixed in. I never said that it wouldn't be effort to get 150k gold with alts. I said it is relatively easy because callings are easy. I never said it would be super quick.

150k is not a new claim nor is it my claim. The 150k number was stated by the poster I was referring to. You are clearly confused if you think were discussing an entirely different claim. That is why my numbers stop at 156k for both the low and high end. Because it met the 150k outlined by the first person.

[rhorle]

I'm really surprised there has been any pushback at all on the approximation of 20minutes to complete the WQ for a calling - i think its a very fair and even generous estimate. Considering if you get an unfortunate bunch of WQ spread out, there would EASILY be 5-10 mins of travel alone, by the time you start the calling, travel to the right area, travel between the WQ, then return - I think 20 mins is extremely fair.

It is hardly fair nor is it generous. I timed the elite calling quest yesterday. It took me 14 mins to travel from the flight path in Sinfall to the closest flight path in Bastion. Get a group, fill the bar, hearth to Oribos and get back to my covenant. On the way pack I used the travel mirror to save time so my stop watch was around 12 to 13 mins. I stated 14 mins in case you wanted to disqualify using that trick and I didn't use it on the way out of Revendreth (Venthyr mirror and pridefall hamlet is the first flight path into zone from Oribos)

20 mins might be correct for Torghast as you need to do 2 to 3 floors to get all 150 embers. That can be done on layer 1 for easier/quicker kills. But 20 mins is not generous for all the callings as most times they can be done quickly.

[Stardrift]

You paid other players for carries and can get gold any number of ways. Not pay2win because you arent buying an instaclear directly from Blizzard.

I'm purchasing currency for real life cash, and then I'm spending that currency on power.

P2W. /Thread

[arkanon]

It is hardly fair nor is it generous. I timed the elite calling quest yesterday. It took me 14 mins to travel from the flight path in Sinfall to the closest flight path in Bastion. Get a group, fill the bar, hearth to Oribos and get back to my covenant. On the way pack I used the travel mirror to save time so my stop watch was around 12 to 13 mins. I stated 14 mins in case you wanted to disqualify using that trick and I didn't use it on the way out of Revendreth (Venthyr mirror and pridefall hamlet is the first flight path into zone from Oribos)

20 mins might be correct for Torghast as you need to do 2 to 3 floors to get all 150 embers. That can be done on layer 1 for easier/quicker kills. But 20 mins is not generous for all the callings as most times they can be done quickly.

Did you do it 15 times? What was the average over all toons, including your poorly geared toons?

Even at 14 minutes, that is 3 and a half hours, 7 days a week - thats close to 25 hours per week - like a part time job.

[Stardrift]

It's not "I personally" anything.

It is not an advantage to skip 50 levels that everyone else finished years ago. For it to be an advantage, other people have to not already have the bonus those 50 levels would have given.

If they sold the boost off the bat, you'd have a point. They didn't.
If the boost went to max level, you'd have a point. It doesn't.

As such, you're not skipping anything that hasn't already been done by 99.9% of the playerbase. Nobody cares about leveling.

It's an advantage to skip it whether or not others have done it or not. "It is but it isn't" isn't a sound argument.

Paying to skip a large portion of the game is indeed pay to win.

[rhorle]

Did you do it 15 times? What was the average over all toons, including your poorly geared toons?

Why would I do it 15 times to show the time it took for one calling? Are you going to use this as a gotcha moment and say you are right all along? Have you do it on 15 alts to know the time it takes? You are the one that keeps claiming 20 mins so you should have the burden of proof no? And just to clear the air I don't have any alts this expansion. I started to level my druid but got bored and decided to wait for flying. Because flight form is great for leveling objectives even with threads of fate.

[arkanon]

Why would I do it 15 times to show the time it took for one calling? Are you going to use this as a gotcha moment and say you are right all along? Have you do it on 15 alts to know the time it takes? You are the one that keeps claiming 20 mins so you should have the burden of proof no? And just to clear the air I don't have any alts this expansion. I started to level my druid but got bored and decided to wait for flying. Because flight form is great for leveling objectives even with threads of fate.

No "gotcha" moment at all, but doing it on your main is not the same as doing it on 15 different characters, many of which would be WELL below 200 ilvl. The claim was that you can "easily" make nearly 200,000G per week, and the example you provided was leveling 15 characters to max level, and completing all available callings on all 15 characters every week.

If you were doing the same calling on an 10+ ilvl 170 toons, do you think they would ALL be able to comfortably complete the same calling in 14 minutes?

You also fail to acknowledge that this still equates to 25 hours per week, even at 14 minutes.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's not "I personally" anything.

It is not an advantage to skip 50 levels that everyone else finished years ago. For it to be an advantage, other people have to not already have the bonus those 50 levels would have given.

If they sold the boost off the bat, you'd have a point. They didn't.
If the boost went to max level, you'd have a point. It doesn't.

As such, you're not skipping anything that hasn't already been done by 99.9% of the playerbase. Nobody cares about leveling.

Lmfao that is NOT what an advantage is. That'd be like saying getting a headstart in a marathon isn't an advantage because other people have already run the marathon in the past. It doesn't fucking matter if you want to disregard the definition of what an advantage is. It's still pay to win because you're actively buying player power. Period.

[Captain Proton]

How are you getting it earlier? They enter their details and receive it all, instantly - in the scenario i presented, it would take you two YEARS of 40 hours per week to obtain the same gear. So again, how are you getting it earlier than someone has it on day one, while you have to wait over 700 days to obtain it?

Drop chance? What drop chance? They pay with their credit card, and receive the loot instantly.

honestly, did you even read what you replied to?

Just to be clear, this is obviously a hypothetical scenario, and is directly in response to your claim that if the purchased items are available through normal gameplay, it cannot be P2W.

I figured we were talking about, you know, wow. Not some made up game with vague details. You changed the details of the game we were discussing and then applied my judgement of World of Warcraft to your made up game, and incorrectly at that. Let's talk about reality lol.

[P for Pancetta]

It's not "I personally" anything.

It is not an advantage to skip 50 levels that everyone else finished years ago. For it to be an advantage, other people have to not already have the bonus those 50 levels would have given.

If they sold the boost off the bat, you'd have a point. They didn't.
If the boost went to max level, you'd have a point. It doesn't.

As such, you're not skipping anything that hasn't already been done by 99.9% of the playerbase. Nobody cares about leveling.

If two new players start playing WoW tomorrow an one of them buys a boost while the other one can't afford it, does this provide an advantage for the boosting player over the other?

[arkanon]

I figured we were talking about, you know, wow. Not some made up game with vague details. You changed the details of the game we were discussing and then applied my judgement of World of Warcraft to your made up game, and incorrectly at that. Let's talk about reality lol.

Because P2W is in no way unique or specific to WoW - its a generic term applied to all games. Or are you saying that something can be P2W in one game, but in a different game it isnt?

Let me make it a wow specific, although still entirely hypothetical scenario:

Blizzard release a new system that you pay $250, and get Full mythic raid set, max level boost, all mounts including the vendor ones and mythic raid ones, and gold cap, all on day one of the expansion. By your own standards, this would still not be P2W, as you can obtain all those things through playing the game.

Obviously this is an extreme scenario, and one that i doubt would ever eventuate - im simply using it to ask if there is a point where you change your stance on your opinion that if the loot is obtainable through gameplay, the system cannot be P2W.

[Captain Proton]

Because P2W is in no way unique or specific to WoW - its a generic term applied to all games. Or are you saying that something can be P2W in one game, but in a different game it isnt?

Let me make it a wow specific, although still entirely hypothetical scenario:

Blizzard release a new system that you pay $250, and get Full mythic raid set, max level boost, all mounts including the vendor ones and mythic raid ones, and gold cap, all on day one of the expansion. By your own standards, this would still not be P2W, as you can obtain all those things through playing the game.


Obviously this is an extreme scenario, and one that i doubt would ever eventuate - im simply using it to ask if there is a point where you change your stance on your opinion that if the loot is obtainable through gameplay, the system cannot be P2W.

Talk about strawmanning lol. Those are not my standards. That is completely different than paying gold to get carried through content. What a dishonest post.

Getting carried still subjects you to ingame loot rules and other elements, such as actually playing the game.

[arkanon]

Talk about strawmanning lol. Those are not my standards. That is completely different than paying gold to get carried through content. What a dishonest post.

Getting carried still subjects you to ingame loot rules and other elements, such as actually playing the game.

This is your comment, is it not?:

They don't have an advantage, because they aren't getting anything you can't by playing.

Are you not saying that something being available in game through normal gameplay dictates it cannot be a P2W system? If not, what ARE you saying? It seemed very clear to me that you are saying the only way a system can be P2W is if it offers items or powers that are ONLY available with real money, and cannot be obtained in game. If you are saying something other than that, please, let me know.

[Captain Proton]

This is your comment, is it not?:

Are you not saying that something being available in game through normal gameplay dictates it cannot be a P2W system? If not, what ARE you saying? It seemed very clear to me that you are saying the only way a system can be P2W is if it offers items or powers that are ONLY available with real money, and cannot be obtained in game. If you are saying something other than that, please, let me know.

Jesus, yes that was one sentence from my post. I also said

The only player power there is the gear:

1) I'm getting them earlier, as he has to wait for the tier to be cleared and sells to start going out.
2) Same drop chance as me, there's no guarantee that either of us will get the BiS to drop first.
3) It's ridiculously easy to make money in this game
4) What advantage is all max level mounts? Talk about a reach lol

Even if you were talking about your made up game, I was talking about wow. This is me explaining why WoW isn't pay 2 win. You're not buying gear from the store and getting it all at once. You are buying currency. Currency is obtainable by anyone. You're paying to do content and get gear. Anyone can do that with gold. Holy shit dude I'm done

You accuse me of strawmanning, not reading what I'm responding to, "irrelevant points" but holy shit man. You take the cake there.

[InflaterMouse]

I'm purchasing currency for real life cash, and then I'm spending that currency on power.

P2W. /Thread

It isn't exclusive to you, anyone else and doesn't require you to purchase currency for real life cash. Further you aren't buying power unless you are buying gear off the AH which in turn has been farmed by other players and sold for in game currency which also isn't required to be purchased by real life currency. Too many things don't fit in the neat little "black and white" definition.