1. #1521
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes, it absolutely does.
    How does a calling get harder just because you've done it on four characters already? What part of the game changes to make it more difficult?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #1522
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The difficulty does not change just because the length changes. If it isn't demanding then it is easy. Don't call people confused if you are arguing with the wrong terminology.
    There is absolutely no doubt in any reasonable persons mind that this is false. Time investment can take an easy task and make it challenging. Flipping a coin is easy, right? Now do it non-stop for 5 hours every single day, 7 days a week, and tell me it is still just as easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How does a calling get harder just because you've done it on four characters already? What part of the game changes to make it more difficult?
    I never once said the calling itself gets more challenging, but the process of farming the same content for 5 hours a day, 7 days a week is SUBSTANTIALLY more challenging than doing it once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  3. #1523
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    There is absolutely no doubt in any reasonable persons mind that this is absolutely false. Time investment can take an easy task and make it challenging. Flipping a coin is easy, right? Now do it non-stop for 5 hours every single day, 7 days a week, and tell me it is still just as easy.
    The task of flipping a coin is still easy though. Are you saying you've never played WoW for 5 hours and found it physically taxing to go an hour or two at a time? Have you found it difficult to type after discussing in this thread for days?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  4. #1524
    Legendary! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    You can buy token, exchange them for gold, buy boost and BOE but beyond that there is no win because you still have to account for skill in PvE and PvP. I ran into new player who boosted/bought tokens and they ain't winning because they don't know shit.

  5. #1525
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If you don't know what is being talked about why are you respond and trying to refute points being made? The topic was about doing callings for 3.5 to 5 hours a day being "hard". I called it easy because callings themselves are easy. The difficulty does not change just because the time you do it increases.

    I don't believe I've ever told you my stance on tokens. Do you mind sharing who your previous account was if I did? I'm sure you can read the thread since it was stated with in the last few pages if you actually cared.
    A question with a question while providing a lack of evidence. Well your not making your side any more reasonable.

    Anyway last talking point I remeber was pointing out how I could hypothetically use a token for a gold and buy a carry. I remember you deflected that and said I only hypothetically bought gold and didn't want to engage in the black market discussion of how people do carry runs.

  6. #1526
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I never once said the calling itself gets more challenging, but the process of farming the same content for 5 hours a day, 7 days a week is SUBSTANTIALLY more challenging than doing it once.
    The challenge remains the same if the calling itself remains the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro-Djinn View Post
    A question with a question while providing a lack of evidence. Well your not making your side any more reasonable.
    You stated you knew my stance so why would I have to repeat what you already knew? Which means if there is a lack of evidence you didn't know my stance to even ask if it is the same. You did only buy gold though. What you do with gold doesn't matter. Carries are not a black market. They have existed since the start of the game and is something that is not against the rules. Why do you think something 100% legit is a black market?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1527
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The challenge remains the same if the calling itself remains the same.
    Absolutely false - and you KNOW its false. Doing something for 20 minutes is not the same as doing it for 5 hours straight. You are squirming - and trying to argue semantics and altering your argument constantly. Your initial argument was that it is "easy to make a tokens worth of gold in a week" and the example you gave was using 15 max level characters to complete callings to earn the gold.

    Now you are arguing about if you meant 150k or 190k, even though your example falls short in both scenarios. Then you tried to argue that a 20 minute average was unreasonable, so we used YOUR number of 14 minutes. Then you have tried to say that all 15 characters would be well geared, or at least over 200 ilvl, so now we are gearing all 15 as well. Even then we are at 25 - 35 HOURS every week to maintain this, you still say that is not a big deal, and that farming the same wqs fifteen times every day is not "hard", and absolutely no different to doing it once, even with such a high time investment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  8. #1528
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Absolutely false - and you KNOW its false.
    Make up your mind. Does the difficulty of a challenge change just because you've repeated it 4 times already? Does the game make it harder? Does it make it easier? Or does it remain the same? Have you never played a game for 5 hours straight? Have you never seen that PC gaming stereotype of getting lost in a game and finding out it is 8 am instead of 1 am?

    Just because you find it difficulty to repeat things does not mean the challenge actually changes. It may be hard for you to personally repeat things but that does not mean it is actually challenging. I have never argued if I meant 190k or 150k. I have always argued the same exact numbers. You are literally the one that started at 150k and change it to 200k. I only pointed out the price of the token as 190k currently since you were updating your argument based on its price. That doesn't mean I changed the numbers in my earlier posts retroactively. Lol.

    Why wouldn't all alts be reasonably geared? Item level 190 is not "well geared". You clearly haven't played the game recently to think so. It is 6 months into a patch so being resonably geared is a good expectation. Even more so if you were spending time on a scheme such as this. Right? You don't need to be over 200 item level in order to breeze through world content. When was the last time you actually played the game?

    I am curious. Have you found it hard to post responses in this thread? Because you say repetition over a week is a hard thing to do. Wouldn't the repetition of responding over all this time be increasingly hard for you? Or do you find it just as easy as the first few times you typed out a response and hit post?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #1529
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Make up your mind. Does the difficulty of a challenge change just because you've repeated it 4 times already? Does the game make it harder? Does it make it easier? Or does it remain the same? Have you never played a game for 5 hours straight? Have you never seen that PC gaming stereotype of getting lost in a game and finding out it is 8 am instead of 1 am?

    Just because you find it difficulty to repeat things does not mean the challenge actually changes. It may be hard for you to personally repeat things but that does not mean it is actually challenging. I have never argued if I meant 190k or 150k. I have always argued the same exact numbers. You are literally the one that started at 150k and change it to 200k. I only pointed out the price of the token as 190k currently since you were updating your argument based on its price. That doesn't mean I changed the numbers in my earlier posts retroactively. Lol.

    Why wouldn't all alts be reasonably geared? Item level 190 is not "well geared". You clearly haven't played the game recently to think so. It is 6 months into a patch so being resonably geared is a good expectation. Even more so if you were spending time on a scheme such as this. Right? You don't need to be over 200 item level in order to breeze through world content. When was the last time you actually played the game?

    I am curious. Have you found it hard to post responses in this thread? Because you say repetition over a week is a hard thing to do. Wouldn't the repetition of responding over all this time be increasingly hard for you? Or do you find it just as easy as the first few times you typed out a response and hit post?
    If you want to work with 190 ilvl, thats fine by me. So how much time investment did it take to get all 15 characters up to 190 ilvl? You keep hand waving away the substantial time investment just to get 15 characters to max level, but im happy to ignore that as you have acknowledged it would take "time to set up". So how much time investment per character, right now, do you think it would take to get them to 190 ilvl?

    Lastly, i never claimed 190 ilvl was "well geared", but you have claimed there is literally no difference in difficulty between doing a calling on a 160 ilvl character and a 225 one, so im not entirely convinced you have played the game at all this expansion, since one of the main complaints is that there is some gaping chasm in player power between 200 ilvl and 220, let alone 160 and 225.

    To answer your very unusual question, it is very easy for me to work while occasionally press F5 and see if there are any replies, and then reply. Maybe a grand total of 20 - 30 minutes today between phone calls and other work. Now, if i had to come into my office after work, and sit down and spam replies for 5 hours, every single day, 7 days a week? Yeah, I would find that far more challenging, especially if that's all I was doing, rather than breaking it up with other activities.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-11 at 03:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  10. #1530
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The challenge remains the same if the calling itself remains the same.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You stated you knew my stance so why would I have to repeat what you already knew? Which means if there is a lack of evidence you didn't know my stance to even ask if it is the same. You did only buy gold though. What you do with gold doesn't matter. Carries are not a black market. They have existed since the start of the game and is something that is not against the rules. Why do you think something 100% legit is a black market?
    You heard it here first folks, Rhole believes that: That someone who paid their way to complete the hardest gameplay content from Blizzard, through gold obtained through a Blizzard service, doesn't matter because the rest of the people still have to deal with it.

    But the thing is what if a portion of the 'rest' decides to buy carry runs? Then its not just one person. There is plenty of lazy players out there who think to themselves "I don't have the time to do this" and will buy tokens for carries or pay for boosts to minimize the time they actually want to engage with the game.

    While a small portion, there is also just the whales who see nothing wrong with paying blizzard for tokens and getting a bunch of gold. After all they have cash to burn. Like that one guy from Black Desert Online who blew 160k on in-game items just to have an advantage over other players through the use of gold. Sure its an extreme example but there is these kinds of players as well in addition to the lazy ones.

  11. #1531
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And, as mentioned in response, it is not an "advantage" to be caught up to a position BEHIND current content.
    Even if it puts you ahead of those who cannot or choose not to pay for the levels?

    Just to be clear this is obviously more of a factor in TBCC than Retail, as the investment to get from 1-58 is much higher than 1-50 in retail. This is not the classic forum, so im not only talking about classic, but i just wanted to make that clear.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-11 at 03:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  12. #1532
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    If you want to work with 190 ilvl, thats fine by me. So how much time investment did it take to get all 15 characters up to 190 ilvl? You keep hand waving away the substantial time investment just to get 15 characters to max level, but im happy to ignore that as you have acknowledged it would take "time to set up". So how much time investment per character, right now, do you think it would take to get them to 190 ilvl?
    I have never hand waved away the investment needed to get the operation set up. I have always said it takes work for the initial investment to get all the characters to level 60. The time to get to 190 is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything about any of the points made. You are again looking for a "gotcha" moment to dismiss everything when nothing else has worked. 190 is not hard to get. World Quests max at 194 and Covenant at 196.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro-Djinn View Post
    But the thing is what if a portion of the 'rest' decides to buy carry runs? Then its not just one person. There is plenty of lazy players out there who think to themselves "I don't have the time to do this" and will buy tokens for carries or pay for boosts to minimize the time they actually want to engage with the game.
    But that can occur with out the tokens. Because the tokens do not enable that to happen in the game. It doesn't matter how many lazy players there are. If a person wants to use their gold for a boost why is that bad? The token is a trade between two players involving gold and $15 gift card to Battle.net. It is never a transaction to win because that is what happens after the fact. Gold already has that ability with out a token. The token doesn't enable it.

    The BDO player wasn't just about an advantage through gold. If you are going to bring in something else why lie about it? Whales will find a way to spend money regardless of the token existing. They would find other ways to get carries. You act as if boosting was first introduced to the game at the same time the token was. When did you start playing WoW? Because you don't seem to know anything about the history of boosting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And, as mentioned in response, it is not an "advantage" to be caught up to a position BEHIND current content.
    Here is a question for you. If Blizzard sold XP boosting potions for money would that be pay to win? What if they sold damage boosts while below max level? What if they sold old style heirlooms that were super OP for while below max level? Why is it that the only advantages that exist are end-game related? Could Blizzard sell gear for end-game but as long as it is something easily obtainable it would not be pay to win?

    What if they sold normal level raid gear. Is that pay to win? There is no real advantage to be behind current max item level.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #1533
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Even if it puts you ahead of those who cannot or choose not to pay for the levels?

    Just to be clear this is obviously more of a factor in TBCC than Retail, as the investment to get from 1-58 is much higher than 1-50 in retail. This is not the classic forum, so im not only talking about classic, but i just wanted to make that clear.
    You are comparing "losers" to "losers" anyways. So if anything that would be "pay to be a less of a loser". Doesn't make it a win nor even advantage since race is long over, ship has sailed, crew left.
    Ship has been abandoned.
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  14. #1534
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Yes, because those people are ALSO behind.

    WoW is based on current content. Current content includes the current expansion. If you're behind current content - You're behind. Period.

    The boost NEVER takes you to the endgame. It puts you to the START of current content, which is the game the devs want people playing. That includes Classic TBC, where the boost takes you to 58 - The start of Outland content. It gives you mediocre green gear to start and sends you off into Outland to do TBC content.

    The same goes for the retail boost. It puts you at the START of current content. It gives you mediocre starter gear, and it sends you off into current retail expansion. If you're not at current retail expansion - You're behind. No one pays attention to the rest of the game anymore. That's the idea behind the boost. It doesn't matter WHAT level you are, if you're pre-current expansion, you're behind and catching up. You can level, or you can pay for the boost, and either way you are then caught up and can start the current game.

    By no stretch of the imagination is that "winning" anything. It's putting you at the starting line.
    Again, please stop relying on the word "winning" - it is doing your argument a great injustice. As to your point, your saying that 2 players are in the exact same position on launch day if one is lvl 1 and has to level to 60, and the other is at lvl 50 and has to level to 60, simply because they both have to reach the end goal of 60?

    In a F1 race, would it be considered reasonable to have everyone start on lap one of 60, but give some people the chance to automatically complete their first 50 laps for a price, starting on lap 51? I mean the main goal is to complete the entire season with the most points, and this is only one part of that so it isnt really P2W, right? I accept that leveling to cap is only PART of the experience, and maybe a better way of putting it is allowing someone to BUY P1 at every race - they still have to complete all the laps, and everyone has an equal opportunity to pass each other, so its fair, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I have never hand waved away the investment needed to get the operation set up. I have always said it takes work for the initial investment to get all the characters to level 60. The time to get to 190 is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything about any of the points made. You are again looking for a "gotcha" moment to dismiss everything when nothing else has worked. 190 is not hard to get. World Quests max at 194 and Covenant at 196.
    Yet another question you just dont want to answer? Yet another example of your "easy" option not being easy at all. Have a guess, how long do you think it would take to get ONE toon to 190 ilvl, and we can just multiply that by fifteen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  15. #1535
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What if you spend it on a mount? Is that still pay to win? What if they buy a mount with all but 10 of that gold and the remainder is earned in game. Is a boost still pay to win? When you pay real money you are paying to trade another person time spent farming gold. That is what you pay for. What you do with the gold is irrelevant to the real money being spent.

    It isn't pay to win to use that gold on normal game things.

    - - - Updated - - -



    But with different levels of manual labor required. The reason why I switched it to an assembly worker was because they were both blue collar. Do you not remember taking issue with the collar color being different? Do you also not understand the purpose of the examples? To indicate that the time something takes does not denote the difficulty of doing that job.

    Not all 8 hour shifts of different jobs are the same effort, or "difficulty". Some jobs are easier then others.
    If you spend it on power, it's P2W.

  16. #1536
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    No. Using gold to gain advantages is a normal part of the game. Blizzard is facilitating the trade of gold. What a person does with that gold is up to them and is not pay to win just because some, or all, of the gold came from a token.
    Using gold to gain advantages is a normal part of the game, yes, when farmed through your own efforts in the game. Buying a token to acquire an advantage, ie, gold to buy power is P2W. You're paying Blizzard for gold to be used to get ahead of others who may not have the means to throw cash around, therefore being at a disadvantage because they can't simply just buy the gold themselves like the guy using rl money.

    I don't know how else to explain it to you because it's pretty clear cut that there's an advantage being had here through the use of cash. If I see a friend in guild with high progression/key levels who wouldn't otherwise have been able to do that while I'm at a much less higher progression because I don't use cash, I'm at a disadvantage. That is paying to win because he would not have been able to do that in any other scenario.

    Sorry dude, while Blizzard facilitates P2W on a smaller scale, it still very much is P2W. Long gone is the company that cared about prestige. They've abandoned it in favor of the almighty dollar, they took the easy way out to combat gold sellers instead of putting in honest work getting interns or Blizzard CS to sift through the mass amounts of gold being suspiciously transferred around.

    Just take a look at FF, they're actively combatting gold sellers and they aren't considering selling currency to deal with the problem, because they'd rather put in the effort to track sellers instead. That's how it should be to uphold integrity at the endgame and make YOU put in the effort to earn those things.
    Last edited by NatePsy; 2021-06-11 at 05:08 AM.

  17. #1537
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you are claiming there are people who think swiping your credit card and buying full bis gear is NOT P2W?
    Yes, because an argument can be made that who gives a shit about gear? Is getting BiS winning? Maybe to you, probably not to them.

    Or are you simply saying that as soon as there is an additional step, it stops being P2W? So swiping your credit card which gives you a token which can be traded at a vendor in gmae for full BIS gear is not P2W because there was one extra step?
    My definition is simple, can you buy anything that you can't get in game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    By definition.
    By definition all games you pay for are p2w

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    That condition is irrelevant.
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  18. #1538
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Yes, because an argument can be made that who gives a shit about gear? Is getting BiS winning? Maybe to you, probably not to them.
    For the 500th time in this thread alone, the phrase P2W does not require something to be a "win" or "winning" - just because the phrase includes the term "win" does not require it to meet the commonly accepted definition, which is gaining an ADVANTAGE. When i say you are driving me up the wall, there is no car involved, and no wall. This may or may not blow your mind, but shooting the moon does not involve a gun, OR the moon. And flipping out? Very seldom is anyone involved performing actual flips.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    My definition is simple, can you buy anything that you can't get in game?
    Yes - collectors editions and similar frequently if not ALWAYS contain items that cannot be obtained any other way, even TBCC has the felstalker mount, which was not in TBC, and cannot be obtained any other way. Now, I realise your natural instinct to this reply will be to say "yeah, but none of that gives you any power!!!" but i will tick that box right now by quoting something that may be familiar to you: "who gives a shit about gear?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  19. #1539
    Imagine being in a racecar and complaining the guy you're up against spent more money than you learning how to drive

  20. #1540
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohvul View Post
    Imagine being in a racecar and complaining the guy you're up against spent more money than you learning how to drive
    Imagine being in a racecar after working for years to afford it, and qualifying and working your way up the ranks, just to have some guy turn up, and buy a car with 200hp more than you, bypassing all the training, all the qualifying, being offered poll position, only having to complete 10laps while everyone else has to do 60, and he still spends the whole race smashing into everyone elses cars, smashing into the barriers, and ruining the race for everyone else.

    To be clear, that is NOT what is happening in wow, but it is the reason some people really hate the P2W nature of some games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

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