So.. Alleria vs Liadrin

[Jackstraw]

In fact Alleria can single-handedly bring down Thalassian civilization just by corrupting the Sunwell if she wanted to so :shrug:

This is why I found borderline asinine Lor'themar's decision to bring Alleria to visit the Sunwell. But I guess we had to witness the next power creep happen in real time, so there's that.

L'ura was just a Naaru, as might as they are. Decimating a city in WoW's scale is not much of a feat, and the parallel with the Demon Hunters might not stand (although really we just don't know whose demons get consumed, we kill a named during DH's intro quest), but the others do.

Then again power levels are as high or low as Blizz demands it. Saurfang axed 25% of Malfurion's hp, and Malfurion should be untouchable by anything mortal given how divine he's increasingly becoming.

[Varodoc]

This is why I found borderline asinine Lor'themar's decision to bring Alleria to visit the Sunwell. But I guess we had to witness the next power creep happen in real time, so there's that.

L'ura was just a Naaru, as might as they are. Decimating a city in WoW's scale is not much of a feat, and the parallel with the Demon Hunters might not stand (although really we just don't know whose demons get consumed, we kill a named during DH's intro quest), but the others do.

Then again power levels are as high or low as Blizz demands it. Saurfang axed 25% of Malfurion's hp, and Malfurion should be untouchable by anything mortal given how divine he's increasingly becoming.

Obviously the cities in-game are very scaled down for game purposes, while in the lore they are massive. Karabor was a sprawling temple-city and the second most populated Draenei city on Draenor (second only to Shattrath City), so the fact that the Dark Naaru could single-handedly wipe out the defenders of the city (as the quest implies, just scale up proportionally) is impressive.

Naturally there are people like Archimonde and Deathwing that can effortlessly destroy an entire city, but we're talking about elves here. The fact that Alleria absorbed that kind of power gives her a clear advantage over Liadrin.

This is hardly surprising. TBC already showed that the Void creature Dimensius was responsible for consuming an entire planet, so the Void was always shown as an incredibly powerful force.

[Nyel]

That was in the past. I think you're leveling in Classic? I just don't know if M'uru is still in the dungeons of the order temple.
Anyway, since the end of TBC Blood Knights tap into the light via the Sunwell.

I think they relocated M'uru in 2.4 from Silvermoon to the Sunwell Plateau. But until that Blood Elf Paladins basically enthrall Naaru and absorb their power.

[Varodoc]

I think they relocated M'uru in 2.4 from Silvermoon to the Sunwell Plateau. But until that Blood Elf Paladins basically enthrall Naaru and absorb their power.

Then the Naaru's power would be split between all the various paladins, Liadrin would only gain a portion of it. Meanwhile Alleria absorbed the entire Naaru for herself.

Plus they stopped that practice when the Prophet Velen restored the Sunwell. The story of the Blood Knights is the story of redemption. They sinned when they enthralled a Naaru. They gave up on those stolen powers. I don't think Velen would be happy if he learned that the Blood Knights still had those powers they stole from a tortured Naaru.

So in other words Liadrin is just a generic paladin now, she isn't drawing powers from the Naaru anymore.

[Jackstraw]

Obviously the cities in-game are very scaled down for game purposes, while in the lore they are massive. Karabor was a sprawling temple-city and the second most populated Draenei city on Draenor (second only to Shattrath City), so the fact that the Dark Naaru could single-handedly wipe out the defenders of the city (as the quest implies, just scale up proportionally) is impressive.

Naturally there are people like Archimonde and Deathwing that can effortlessly destroy an entire city, but we're talking about elves here, not Demi-gods. The fact that Alleria absorbed that kind of power gives her a clear advantage over Liadrin.

Oh let's be clear: I'm sure Liadrin stands no chance - the champion stood very little and needed ample knowledge of the Void via Wrathion, Ashjra'kamas and the Heart to fight the Vision.

Scaling up and down according to a need is an exercise I did do before making my statement. I just don't think L'ura is as strong as other entities.
The point of Alleria being the scourge of Quel'thalas is completely granted though. Better yet, it gives Alleria another character perk: she could just teleport to the Sunwell and cause its collapse, but actively chooses not to. To Alleria, the Sunwell and her people are more important than any given political advantage (to this day at least). She doesn't see Quel'thalas as an Horde stronghold, at this point one of the mightiest, but as her home, and her current actions show her will to preserve it despite being exiled.

[Raisei]

Or it could be some good character development. If you think about it nearly all the Horde races were enemies at one point and learned to put it in the past and work together. I always figured the worgen should've been Horde, it could've been done. Just replace the forsaken invading with humans, what with Varian swearing at Undercity to not let a human kingdom remain in the hands of monsters, and the night elves with Horde druids. Genn could have some humble pie and character development being in debt to orcs and grow a bit. Not that his bond with Anduin isn't touching and all.

First of all: Varian was very much anti-Worgen during this time. He hated Genn and his Wall and refused to even talk to him. That only changed later in the Novel Wolfheart where Genn helps Varian overcome his own inner feral nature (being Lo'goshs avatar), that was around Cata when Garrosh started his invasions into Nightelf territory.
The problem with your idea is though that the Worgen did not come to the Alliance over the humans. It was the Nightelves that brought them together (in the same book) and it was the Nightelves that taught the Worgen to control their feral side through a specific ritual. The Worgen owe them a lot and thus they would never join a side that constantly murders Night Elves for resources or the pure fun of it.

My problem is that they do not really "learn to put it in the past" they just do it. And I am not entirely sure how the Nightborne rebelling against Elisande for her cruelty and evil actions but unquestionably accepting Sylvanas genociding their own former people is good character development. Looks more like a lobotomy to me.

[Super Dickmann]

What do you mean by that? I quite liked the sense of camaraderie the Paladin hall transmitted, characters were interesting - hell, I'd have expected this sense of common bonding from the Warrior class hall but Warriors got to play with Godlike beings and angels, whereas Paladins did the nitty gritty fighting.

Most of the Order Halls that were not already for a class that had a strong united aesthetic and feel across all races, like Monks, Demon Hunters, Warlocks or Death Knights share the problem of being exercises in credulity-straining homogenisation. The paladin class hall takes place on a location relevant exclusively to humans under a denomination that only has human history behind it, the Silver Hand. The ethos of Knightly honor, the pop-culture version of medieval Knights as their aesthetic and vibe and the Holy Light as coming from the Church are all human (and dwarf). But for all other participants it is entirely meaningless - the Draenei have a history with the Light that's 20k years older, the Blood Knights had quests all about defacing the Silver Hand in TBC and are explicitly agents of the blood elf state and the Sunwalkers aren't even paladins. Yet in their interactions in the Paladin Order Hall they all transmogrify into differently shaped and sized copy-pastes of the same human paladin. The notion that a tauren sunwalker from a tribal culture who sees their worship of the Sun as being part of the same druidic worship as the Moon has more in common with a human paladin than he does with a druid, a priest or just any tauren at random and would find this to be their true home and allegiance is beyond preposterous.

The only Hall worse in that regard is the Priest one where we're expected to believe that troll witchdoctors, Forsaken shadow priests, former Scarlet clerics and Elune worshipers happen to all be buddies and act in virtually the same way, praying in a site devoted to a naaru, natch, just because they all happen to fulfill a religious function.

Liadrin in my experience is beloved by the set of players who got to experience the first iteration of Liadrin, the Blood Knight Matriarch. There were dialogues if I recall correctly during the Paladin quests throughout Eversong that fleshed out both the Blood Knights and her as a ruthless order, siphoning the light to do their bidding as opposed to praying to the light to get her blessing. And yes, over the years the character got diluted, but there's a fondness of her I quite recall, and can totally relate to the catharsis of M'uru sacrificing itself to cleanse the Sunwell because after all these years a creature of pure light grew simpathetic with the plight of the Blood Elves, and in this same act creating a change of hearts in Liadrin and her people. It' s a nice moment.

Sadly that is all there is to it, of course. But in a way it's something similar to Sylvanas: Liadrin supporters like a version of the character as it was before the rewritings and as presented in past iterations of the game.

What sets those two apart is that the sum of Liadrin's characterization, every aspect oyu and other posters have covered extend exclusively to her version before the Sunwell reignites. After that point she doesn't develop as a character, nor are her or her Blood Knights' prior characterization even addressed - one of the blood elf NPCs at the Bulwark defiles Uther's Tomb, but this has not even a line of notice in the Order Hall because he, Liadrin and the tauren could all be replaced by Argent NPCs and the story would only grow more coherent as a result. Alleria too changes drastically from WC2 and the adjoining books into Legion, but it's possible to discuss these changes and what appealed to them before and after. Liadrin by contrast is purely a nostalgia vehicle, a sort of walking reminder of what the Blood Elves used to be and the 180 they performed away from their original TBC concept. It's not that she is out of character, it's that the shift to her character has not come with any new doors opening.

[starstationprofm]

Alleria fought in the Troll Wars, no? She should be far older and experienced.

[bloodkin]

Due to Alliance bias Alleria is better. If we are lucky she ends up as raid boss some day after she gives in to the whispers. One less alliance mary sue to worry about.

would be nice if the horde had some level headed character with some actual power behind them for once. Even green jezus lost his powers and every other powerful leader or character got hit with the villain bat and went insane, or lost their powers. Seems only alliance mary sues get to have stupid overpowered abilities for no other reason than fanservice.

[starstationprofm]

I think they relocated M'uru in 2.4 from Silvermoon to the Sunwell Plateau. But until that Blood Elf Paladins basically enthrall Naaru and absorb their power.

The Blood Elf Paladins had to struggle with a furious, harmful Light when they were still corrupted. They weren't stronger than normal Paladins, if anything they were weaker because they had to endure torment while using the Light, whereas Paladins feel the opposite, the Light takes away their pain and inspires them with courage.

[Ardenaso]

would be really awesome and metal if Liadrin would command the Light within the Lightforgeds to combust and make the Lightforgeds implode themselves

they can and they should have done so back in Arathi Warfront, imagine Liadrin doing this to Turalyon in front of Alleria

[Varodoc]

would be really awesome and metal if Liadrin would command the Light within the Lightforgeds to combust and make the Lightforgeds implode themselves

they can and they should have done so back in Arathi Warfront, imagine Liadrin doing this to Turalyon in front of Alleria

I don't think you want to piss Alleria off, just saying:

[Sanguinerd]

I like Liadrin much more but Alleria is unfortunately alot stronger.

I'd be more interested in a proper power measure between Jaina and Thalyssra though, found it kinda weird she feared Jaina during the BFA intro.

[Soon-TM]

The one with the bigger r34 fandom wins.

Well, in that case Alleria would have no choice whatsoever against her rotting sister, for some odd (and frankly disturbing) reason.

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Due to Alliance bias Alleria is better. If we are lucky she ends up as raid boss some day after she gives in to the whispers. One less alliance mary sue to worry about.

Nah, the Mary Sue's in Warcraft never die. If there are characters that you can be sure that will be alive and kicking until WoW goes down, just look at the Fab Four: Jaina, Anduin, Thrall and Sylvanas, the latter in her own Evil Sue fashion. The only exception might have been Varian, but that's it.

- - - Updated - - -

I think they relocated M'uru in 2.4 from Silvermoon to the Sunwell Plateau. But until that Blood Elf Paladins basically enthrall Naaru and absorb their power.

Those were the OG belf paladins, and it was a great background. Post BC blood knights no longer whip Naarus but rely instead on the power of the Sunwell (which was purified by a Naaru), which was a major disappointment storywise.

- - - Updated - - -

Alleria fought in the Troll Wars, no? She should be far older and experienced.

Just look at Tyrande to see what age and/or experience can amount to in WoW.

[Beloren]

I just found it interesting that Alleria absorbed the powers of a Void Naaru, while Liadrin siphons the holy energies of a Naaru.

What if these 2 we're to fight?

Alleria does a lot more with the void thing than Liadrin does with the Naaru.

Alleria simply outstrips Liadrin. Sorcerer huntress vs paladin

One keeps doing the impossible the other is a footman

It’s like saying Malfurion vs Broll Bearmantle

[Yarathir]

Alleria's probably much stronger, but Liadrin is much more interesting.

Liadrin has pretty much no character.

[cparle87]

First of all: Varian was very much anti-Worgen during this time. He hated Genn and his Wall and refused to even talk to him. That only changed later in the Novel Wolfheart where Genn helps Varian overcome his own inner feral nature (being Lo'goshs avatar), that was around Cata when Garrosh started his invasions into Nightelf territory.
The problem with your idea is though that the Worgen did not come to the Alliance over the humans. It was the Nightelves that brought them together (in the same book) and it was the Nightelves that taught the Worgen to control their feral side through a specific ritual. The Worgen owe them a lot and thus they would never join a side that constantly murders Night Elves for resources or the pure fun of it.

My problem is that they do not really "learn to put it in the past" they just do it. And I am not entirely sure how the Nightborne rebelling against Elisande for her cruelty and evil actions but unquestionably accepting Sylvanas genociding their own former people is good character development. Looks more like a lobotomy to me.

Yeah, that's what I was saying in my "what could have been". If it had been the Horde druids who helped them instead of the night elves and Varian invading instead of Sylvanas. Would've made an interesting story. Like I said, a lot of the Horde is former enemies.

[dfsdfvh]

Alleria fought in the Troll Wars, no? She should be far older and experienced.

Remeber when Tyrande who was 10k years old being lectured by a 18yrs old kid? It still trigger me somehow.

[darkoms]

You mean Tyrande vs. Alleria? Well back at you, what has Tyrande done to compare her to the likes of Alleria? Killing a Val'kyr (already done by a low level player in Andorhal)? Killing Nathanos when he had 5% HP left?

What did Alleria do to be on par with Tyrande? Tyrande asked Elune to create a shield and even Archimonde was unable to break through this shield and she also killed demons in whole packs in the War of the Ancients. You are constantly talking here about how great Alleria is because she ate the Naaru. Seriously? Is this your argument? She ate the Naaru whom the players defeated in the dungeon. It wasn't even a raid boss, it was a dungeon boss and she did it when the Naaru was already dying (so L'ura was hardly in full strength when Alleria devoured her), so if Alleria now has the dying boss sill from the dungeon for 5 people, she's not as impressive as you want. And I won't even compare Alleria against Tyrande the Night Warrior because Blizzard has officially said that Tyrande the Night Warrior is stronger than Malfurion. It won't even be a battle. A normal Tyrande vs. Aleria will be at least roughly equal. And as for Val'kyrs. Tyrande killed that Val'kyr with one shot, when she got really angry and you forget that the power of Sylvanas and Val'kyrs are connected as already mentioned several times. So it is likely that those Val'kyrs were also empowered by the Jailer (which explains why they use chains as well as Sylvanas). While Alleria needed the help of Turalyon and the player to defeat the pit lord.

You are definitely a new British Bulldog, who screams about Alleria's coolness at every step, just as he screamed about Arthas's coolness, only at the same time you have time to complain that Alleria is not paid too much attention. However, I'm not sure if you are sincere or just trying to piss off other people on this forum, because, as you may have noticed, many are already tired of reading about how great and wonderful Alleria is. On the other hand, it's fun to watch another Windrunner fanboy for a change.

[Jackstraw]

However, I'm not sure if you are sincere or just trying to piss off other people on this forum, because, as you may have noticed, many are already tired of reading about how great and wonderful Alleria is. On the other hand, it's fun to watch another Windrunner fanboy for a change.

You will find that outside of the Ren'dorei/ Alleria zealot persona, Varodoc is pretty well versed in the lore and has some interesting takes. He's good though, lets those transpire maybe once every thirty or so posts.