[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Antipathy1018]

From what I can tell there won't be much of a mystery as to why she's in the two rivers. Not sure what the release date of New Spring has to do with its suitability as a starting point.

I don't think they are doing a beat for beat start at New Spring anyway, it looks to me like they're starting shortly before she goes to the Two Rivers to set the stakes and the political intrigue up early. I get purists won't like it but it will probably make the show more watchable for new people.

Well people that have never read the story won't know why she is there other than it is odd.

The release date has everything to do with it b/c until then people who have not read until The Dragon Reborn did not know for sure why she bothered going to the Two Rivers.

Please just tell me if you have not read the books or anything, b/c if you try to claim you have you already invalidated anything you might say by thinking ANS should be anything other than a flashback during the end, or broken up over the episodes that cover books 2 and 3.

[Beloren]

From what I can tell there won't be much of a mystery as to why she's in the two rivers. Not sure what the release date of New Spring has to do with its suitability as a starting point.

I don't think they are doing a beat for beat start at New Spring anyway, it looks to me like they're starting shortly before she goes to the Two Rivers to set the stakes and the political intrigue up early. I get purists won't like it but it will probably make the show more watchable for new people.

Exactly, ANS will ruin the mystery, which is a huge charm, remember when you first started reading.. who are these mysterious Aes Sedai, why what is a warder, where do they come how important is this guy Rand, who is he, what's going on... that first speech Moiraine gives them in the two rivers, is a very powerful and enticing reveal that sets so much up. This and so much more is completely ruined with ANS.. and the way a new spring is set up , it doesn't really tease anything, it was just describing events we already new, but if you didn't know , a good chunk of the appeal in EotW is lost. Imo.

[Antipathy1018]

From what I can tell there won't be much of a mystery as to why she's in the two rivers. Not sure what the release date of New Spring has to do with its suitability as a starting point.

I don't think they are doing a beat for beat start at New Spring anyway, it looks to me like they're starting shortly before she goes to the Two Rivers to set the stakes and the political intrigue up early. I get purists won't like it but it will probably make the show more watchable for new people.

Well people that have never read the story won't know why she is there other than it is odd.

The release date has everything to do with it b/c until then people who have not read until Crossroads of Twilight did not know for sure why she bothered going to the Two Rivers.

Please just tell me if you have not read the books or anything, b/c if you try to claim you have you already invalidated anything you might say by thinking ANS should be anything other than a flashback during the end, or broken up over the episodes that cover books 2 and 3.

You say "From what I can tell there won't be much of a mystery as to why she's in the two rivers." that is easy, until the middle of book 1 you don't even know she is looking for the dragon reborn. But if you put something that happens years before, that tells you she is looking for the dragon reborn you lose all mystery of that plot point, you know the major plot point of the first 3 books.

[Zaktar]

Well people that have never read the story won't know why she is there other than it is odd.

The release date has everything to do with it b/c until then people who have not read until The Dragon Reborn did not know for sure why she bothered going to the Two Rivers.

Please just tell me if you have not read the books or anything, b/c if you try to claim you have you already invalidated anything you might say by thinking ANS should be anything other than a flashback during the end, or broken up over the episodes that cover books 2 and 3.

You say "From what I can tell there won't be much of a mystery as to why she's in the two rivers." that is easy, until the middle of book 1 you don't even know she is looking for the dragon reborn. But if you put something that happens years before, that tells you she is looking for the dragon reborn you lose all mystery of that plot point, you know the major plot point of the first 3 books.

I was unclear - I mean in the show it does not look like there will be much of a mystery as to why she is in the Two Rivers, based on what I've seen. Who knows how or when they might reveal that she and her pillow friend witnessed that key moment, there are several places it could fit just fine, including early on. Changing when it is revealed wouldn't take much away from the first three novels, regardless of how many years you had to wait.

Including more than a couple of scenes from New Spring would drag the story too much, I'd agree. It doesn't seem like they're doing that though. I'm a johnny-come-lately to the series, I first read it in '99, finished my most recent read-through around a year ago. It was better than I remembered, I'll probably start another soon.

Exactly, ANS will ruin the mystery, which is a huge charm, remember when you first started reading.. who are these mysterious Aes Sedai, why what is a warder, where do they come how important is this guy Rand, who is he, what's going on... that first speech Moiraine gives them in the two rivers, is a very powerful and enticing reveal that sets so much up. This and so much more is completely ruined with ANS.. and the way a new spring is set up , it doesn't really tease anything, it was just describing events we already new, but if you didn't know , a good chunk of the appeal in EotW is lost. Imo.

You could be right, we may find out. I think that section can stand on its own and still be charming without that mystery, but to be fair there are also plenty of ways it could go wrong. I basically agree that you shouldn't start the series with the New Spring in its entirety, I was more responding to the mystery aspect and the change to the beginning of the story than that, but responded to your last post which made it unclear, my mistake.

The thing is they had to change the opening of the series because the way it is in the books is well known for discouraging new readers. I think dipping the readers into the politics early is probably a good choice, it's more representative of the strengths of the series. Kind of a preview for what you'll go on to see the main characters get embroiled into, in the great game.

[Rennadrel]

It seems to me that if all "you people" stopped worrying about "woke culture" you would enjoy things a lot more, yet have less to complain about on the internet.

Maybe if it actually produced good content instead of lameduck mediocre shows, people wouldn't feel compelled to complain about it. Maybe rather than blatantly race swapping established characters which just reeks of racism in its own right by suggesting that characters of colour need the white saviour for them to be successful, they can create their own content that holds up on merit. But they never do and it rarely does.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I didn't see anything in NS that was needed.
Fleshing out the humble origins of the three ta'varen seemed a priority.

If I remember right There "humble Origins" really aren't fleshed out at all in the book there pretty much introduced and then rand's house is raided and they Instantly go into escaping two rivers. unless I'm forgetting bits, which is actually quite possible because I know at least one of the books I went through was Abridged but i don't remember which one, there isn't much lost going for a more story important start.

- - - Updated - - -

I think New Spring fits best as flashbacks. It’s not a good place to start. Throw us right in the action with EOTW then once we’re interested start fleshing out the backstory. Hell New Spring could wait until season 2.

I’m intrigued by a multiple timeline structure integrated into the series at some point, where we’re seeing Moraine interacting with Rand in the present while flashing back to new spring.

Mabye if it was like a core mystery of the story id agree but I felt like it was just left out info that wouldn't really warrant flashback treatment like some other story beats.

[Shadowferal]

If I remember right There "humble Origins" really aren't fleshed out at all in the book there pretty much introduced and then rand's house is raided and they Instantly go into escaping two rivers. unless I'm forgetting bits, which is actually quite possible because I know at least one of the books I went through was Abridged but i don't remember which one, there isn't much lost going for a more story important start.

No.
Much of the town gets written up. The smithy that Perrin works at. (Him being a blacksmith is an important note and can't be passed over...as well as his parents and siblings' murders) Mat's shiftless attitude was established, as well as his sister "Bodewhin" and his father's skill with a staff. Tam's farm is also featured. And then there's the peddler, Padan Fain, who definitely needs to be seen...
The whole town needs a view...because it was once the legendary "Manethren." And that will be made over...mentioned more than a few times. "Tai'shar Manethren," the Red Eagle banner, Mat's battlecry; "Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!" ("For the honor of the Red Eagle! For the Honor of the Rose of the Sun! The Rose of the Sun!"), the Band of the Red Hand...so much that needed to see the humble small town that storied Manethren became.

[Beloren]

It seems to me that if all "you people" stopped worrying about "woke culture" you would enjoy things a lot more, yet have less to complain about on the internet.

I admit there is some truth to this, I have found some shows fan communities have moaned excessively about (because of woke culture) to be quite enjoyable, but I have also found a lot ruined, where it is clear the focus isn't telling a good story because it's terrible and all there seems to it is being woke.

These guys wanna make money, so I'm sure they want their shows to be good, but there are certain cases, where going woke about it will destroy it.. imagine inserting gay characters and black" elves along with gender swapping some of the male roles in LotR to make it more woke would feel to a long time fan of the works.

Do you remember how LotR initially put Arwen at Helms deep to make her more visible and and more powerful - but fans were so upset about it they reshot it according to the book , a move that would have destroyed the character Eowyn and unnecessary. Tolkein's works are very very good, there is so much depth in the election of everything he does, you go and start changing it for social agenda reasons, it ceases to become that, your show might be enjoyable still but i can guarantee you, you will lose a lot of core fans.

I feel the wheel of time is similar. LotR/WoT don't need to be GoT - these are globally popular books in many countries amongst both genders, all kinds of sexual orientations for what they are. gender swapping to female and LGBT might make a few female fans and LGBT fans pleased, and gain utter useless accolades from social pressure groups (actually they never really praise a show for inclusion, they just moan about a a show for so called lack of inclusion), but it will piss of far more females and LGBT people who love the original works, i can guarantee you this. It happens every time.

it's one thing to use a new IP and generate stories that have more of these roles which can be good (or not) than it is too take existing IPs and just change everything. She-Ra princess of power is a classic example of how you can complete change and put out garbage for the sake of agenda politics. This is coming from a person that ticks a lot of the so called diversity boxes.

That show was awful, but yet there are some good shows that have been slammed simply because they race swapped, gender swapped or sexual orientation swapped. i watch and enjoy those shows, but i can understand the discontent from long time fans who don't like the change. But this isn't something new.. there has always been controversy when you change characters from how they originally are. sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't, but there is always controversy,

[Rennadrel]

Exactly, ANS will ruin the mystery, which is a huge charm, remember when you first started reading.. who are these mysterious Aes Sedai, why what is a warder, where do they come how important is this guy Rand, who is he, what's going on... that first speech Moiraine gives them in the two rivers, is a very powerful and enticing reveal that sets so much up. This and so much more is completely ruined with ANS.. and the way a new spring is set up , it doesn't really tease anything, it was just describing events we already new, but if you didn't know , a good chunk of the appeal in EotW is lost. Imo.

The problem is that it's more work to have all that mystery be revealed later. This is a show series, not over 10,000 pages of books encompassing 14 novels. It is easier to omit certain aspects later by having them featured earlier in a TV series rather than wasting time later creating flashback scenes and story arcs. It works in a book series because pacing doesn't matter and establishing characters and the story earlier is what will draw people in who have never read the books.

[Beloren]

The problem is that it's more work to have all that mystery be revealed later. This is a show series, not over 10,000 pages of books encompassing 14 novels. It is easier to omit certain aspects later by having them featured earlier in a TV series rather than wasting time later creating flashback scenes and story arcs. It works in a book series because pacing doesn't matter and establishing characters and the story earlier is what will draw people in who have never read the books.

But aren't features like flashbacks quite a good and effective means of story telling to control pacing, reveals, flows etc? Is it that much an inconvenience?

I guess it will boil down to the value of the surprise - for me , there was much charm in the discovery, how much info is lost without the reveal. i remember being surprised LotR gave that opening introduction, when i first read the books, you had to slowly discover the rings and part of their history, but the narrative just gave away so much, the mystery element was severely reduced. the movie was still epic and good, but it would have been even better with that mystery in tact till the scene in Rivendell like it is in the books.

I guess the director has to make choices like that, maybe producer too.

[Rennadrel]

I think New Spring fits best as flashbacks. It’s not a good place to start. Throw us right in the action with EOTW then once we’re interested start fleshing out the backstory. Hell New Spring could wait until season 2.

I’m intrigued by a multiple timeline structure integrated into the series at some point, where we’re seeing Moraine interacting with Rand in the present while flashing back to new spring.

The first episode should literally just be the end of the Aiel War, with Tam and his wife on the slopes of Dragonmount and Rand being born, along with the scene in the White Tower proclaiming his arrival. They don't really need to do too much with the backstory stuff, but setting up those moments might be more important. I don't know if they should do the flashback scene at the beginning of EOTW with Moradin and Lews Therin though, especially after the bastardization that was Red Eagle Entertainment doing that scene and it being so horribly forced and cringe. But that scene does setup a lot of later stuff.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No.
Much of the town gets written up. The smithy that Perrin works at. (Him being a blacksmith is an important note and can't be passed over...as well as his parents and siblings' murders) Mat's shiftless attitude was established, as well as his sister "Bodewhin" and his father's skill with a staff. Tam's farm is also featured. And then there's the peddler, Padan Fain, who definitely needs to be seen...
The whole town needs a view...because it was once the legendary "Manethren." And that will be made over...mentioned more than a few times. "Tai'shar Manethren," the Red Eagle banner, Mat's battlecry; "Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!" ("For the honor of the Red Eagle! For the Honor of the Rose of the Sun! The Rose of the Sun!"), the Band of the Red Hand...so much that needed to see the humble small town that storied Manethren became.

Mabye it’s been to long but I don’t remember it being fleshed out at all beyond a surface level until Perrin goes back.

[Shadowferal]

Mabye it’s been to long but I don’t remember it being fleshed out at all beyond a surface level until Perrin goes back.

It's like the first 10 or so chapters...(I reread the series every now and then. Emond's Field; named for "Aemon" the last king of Manethren)

[Orby]

I admit there is some truth to this, I have found some shows fan communities have moaned excessively about (because of woke culture) to be quite enjoyable, but I have also found a lot ruined, where it is clear the focus isn't telling a good story because it's terrible and all there seems to it is being woke.

These guys wanna make money, so I'm sure they want their shows to be good, but there are certain cases, where going woke about it will destroy it.. imagine inserting gay characters and black" elves along with gender swapping some of the male roles in LotR to make it more woke would feel to a long time fan of the works.

Do you remember how LotR initially put Arwen at Helms deep to make her more visible and and more powerful - but fans were so upset about it they reshot it according to the book , a move that would have destroyed the character Eowyn and unnecessary. Tolkein's works are very very good, there is so much depth in the election of everything he does, you go and start changing it for social agenda reasons, it ceases to become that, your show might be enjoyable still but i can guarantee you, you will lose a lot of core fans.

I feel the wheel of time is similar. LotR/WoT don't need to be GoT - these are globally popular books in many countries amongst both genders, all kinds of sexual orientations for what they are. gender swapping to female and LGBT might make a few female fans and LGBT fans pleased, and gain utter useless accolades from social pressure groups (actually they never really praise a show for inclusion, they just moan about a a show for so called lack of inclusion), but it will piss of far more females and LGBT people who love the original works, i can guarantee you this. It happens every time.

it's one thing to use a new IP and generate stories that have more of these roles which can be good (or not) than it is too take existing IPs and just change everything. She-Ra princess of power is a classic example of how you can complete change and put out garbage for the sake of agenda politics. This is coming from a person that ticks a lot of the so called diversity boxes.

That show was awful, but yet there are some good shows that have been slammed simply because they race swapped, gender swapped or sexual orientation swapped. i watch and enjoy those shows, but i can understand the discontent from long time fans who don't like the change. But this isn't something new.. there has always been controversy when you change characters from how they originally are. sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't, but there is always controversy,

Here's my way of looking at it. I have read the books so my version of Wheel of time is what it was when I read it. I don't expect the series to be faithful to the books, and neither should anyone else. Adaptations are just that, and sure they may not make any sense, but thats Hollywood for you. When I see this sort of thing now I just roll my eyes and try and enjoy it for what it is...

I am just shocked Hollywood haven't adapted any fantasy by people of colour or the LGBTQI+ community, instead just taking white fantasy and race swapping despite the cast already being very diverse in WoT

EDIT: So at the time of writing this I just heard N. K. Jemisin Is Adapting Her Broken Earth books into a series so thats +1 there:P

[Beloren]

Here's my way of looking at it. I have read the books so my version of Wheel of time is what it was when I read it. I don't expect the series to be faithful to the books, and neither should anyone else. Adaptations are just that, and sure they may not make any sense, but thats Hollywood for you. When I see this sort of thing now I just roll my eyes and try and enjoy it for what it is...

I am just shocked Hollywood haven't adapted any fantasy by people of colour or the LGBTQI+ community, instead just taking white fantasy and race swapping despite the cast already being very diverse in WoT

EDIT: So at the time of writing this I just heard N. K. Jemisin Is Adapting Her Broken Earth books into a series so thats +1 there:P

Exactly, this just proves that they don't care one bit about diversity or minority groups, they go for these big IPs because they have the name, and their fake little formulas give them projections, but they don't read the people at all.

They should take LGBTQ material and make films out of it, same with stuff written by different ethnic people that have original characters. Make them popular instead.. yet they do what they do..

Saying that.. they could make Arad Domani a sexually liberal place, i don't think the book specifically specifies, so it's open, Illian and Tear owuld not do, Cairhien is very much like France in my mind, so you can have elements of that. Absolutely not in the Aiel, - Andor's a bit like UK/US so there can be elements there, but why divert screen time to show it specifically, you can just sometimes show tow men holding hands.

Nah, it won't work, the climate and atmosphere of some of those places is too fixed after certain periods in our history, to add such elements would totally change the vibe and the historical parallel, this is why you have to do it with a remote lad like arad Doman that isn't modelled on one of our real life countries.

you can also have elements of it amongst the Red Ajah, and the Black Tower. the Inquisitors of the Children of Light, there are areas you can slide it in, but to change major characters and major nations, it ruins the whole vibe.

[Skizzit]

Exactly, this just proves that they don't care one bit about diversity or minority groups, they go for these big IPs because they have the name, and their fake little formulas give them projections, but they don't read the people at all.

Yeah, it's almost like there was decades and decades of racism and prejudice against any authors other than white males so the only large IPs that exists are ones written by white, male voices.

[Shadowferal]

Here's my way of looking at it. I have read the books so my version of Wheel of time is what it was when I read it. I don't expect the series to be faithful to the books, and neither should anyone else.

Needs to be faithful enough. Otherwise it's not WoT.

[VinceVega]

Are people really expecting a 1:1 adaption of the books? That will never work. To many characters that only show up once or twice an general way to vast most of the time.

They will definetly merge some characters into one. The format just does not allow a 100% faithfull adaption. Ever. Which will not mean, that it will be bad.
Just... adjust what you are expecting a bit.

[Orby]

Needs to be faithful enough. Otherwise it's not WoT.

well adaptions will adapt, I remember being pissed that Fellowship of the Rings missed the Tom Bombadil scene but I still loved the movie. Like Lion King is basically Hamlet at the end of the day. :P

It was one of my favourite chapters of the book

[Beloren]

Yeah, it's almost like there was decades and decades of racism and prejudice against any authors other than white males so the only large IPs that exists are ones written by white, male voices.

So write new IPs, , Hollywood is full of regurgitated, recycled stuff for the exact same reasons I pointed out.. they going by formula, rather than sponsor new creatives regardless of race, they stick to formulas, the only reason we see this shameless race swap is not because they care about others, but the crazies have created enough noise on the social trend that can be measured to the extent they go ah, we'll make more money if we have this representation here, there.. it's nothing to do about story or quality.

so they pump all the big money all the production talent into stale concepts, or old concepts which they don't allow new vision to guide but instead focus more on race or gender or sexuality swapping than actual story.

Why didn't they push and promote Snese8 - i thought it was brilliant and one of my all time favourites, but no firstly they categorised it as LGBT when imo it was just a story that had LGBT characters, so it immediately doesn't show up in a ton of searches and recommendations according to their silly alogrithm, then they wonder why it didn't get enough views and cancel it instead o f what should have been a new and very successful IP regardless of whose gender, race or who fucks who.


Look at the stuff they put out these days, it's just repeat .. they so scared of doing new concepts and projects they are taking all the famous popular books and stories and making them movies instead because they have proof of success, but instead of making them true tot he authors vision, they just go in and 9 out of 10, make an inferior product, half of the time messing it ups o badly it totally flops, cos they don't get what it takes.