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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    When you tie ANYTHING at all to player power, people are going to feel forced/compelled to do it even if they don't have to. You can make fun of people for feeling that way all you want, it's an extremely common sentiment and is one of the many reasons people are citing for quitting. Want to create a fun side activity that's optional? Don't incentivize it with direct power upgrades, no matter how minor they are. Give cosmetic rewards. Mounts, pets, glamours, toys. Anything but artifact power or whatever else is like it.
    That's exactly what anima is, and yet as the guy before you posted, people whine that something is "worthless" or even go so far as to call it "not content" if it doesn't provide player power. Blizzard is in a no-win situation when different parts of their playerbase want opposite things.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    That's exactly what anima is, and yet as the guy before you posted, people whine that something is "worthless" or even go so far as to call it "not content" if it doesn't provide player power. Blizzard is in a no-win situation when different parts of their playerbase want opposite things.
    Blizzard created that problem themselves, they can choke on it for all i care.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I suppose there's some subjectivity to my claim. Maybe it's not accurate all the time, or in every possible way, but it is accurate much of the time for me. At least it is in any way that's player power related as far my main job is concerned.

    There are often significant periods where I have the best gear I can get for my main job and there's nothing for me to pursue as far as player power goes (without considering alt jobs). That leaves me feeling free to pursue just about anything without fear of falling behind. If I don't need tomestones I don't have to run my daily roulettes. If I have my main job at max level and max geared for a particular patch, I can go futz with alt jobs, collect Blue Mage spells, or decorate my house, and never "fall behind" from my perspective.

    I guess a better way to say it would be that FFXIV gives me a break from the treadmill periodically and let's me enjoy the fruits of my labors for a bit before the next content patch comes and adds a new tier of player power to pursue. During that "down time" I can engage in an frivolity I like without fear of falling behind.
    I like to think of FFXIV as a good book you can recommend to a friend. Just because they haven't read it yet doesn't mean they're "behind." They've just yet to experience it. You get excited yourself because you want to see how they react to various plot points scattered throughout... you aren't simply waiting for them to finish it.

    Whereas WoW is more like your high school prom. If you want to experience it properly, you need to do so when it's relevant. If you go to that prom years later... it's going to be weird, man. You missed out on the intended experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I honestly don't get the listening to the community thing. If anything I feel the power of ffxiv is that they don't. At least not too much.

    Compared to wow where the development seems to be "go to mmo champion and official forums. See what's getting bitched about the most then change it in the next expansion." if that's not listening then I don't know what is.
    At the very least, when they disagree with player feedback, they take pains to explain precisely why they're being stubborn about something. And they outright apologize profusely when they're unable to deliver something that is important to the community. They have their finger on the pulse. They aren't necessarily designing according to mass player specification - they just legitimately want to please their players and prioritize that.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Blizzard created that problem themselves, they can choke on it for all i care.
    The "problem" of having a huge playerbase who often want opposing things?
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The "problem" of having a huge playerbase who often want opposing things?
    You foster your playerbase. Wow attracts specific people and foster specific interactions.

    With wow it is that only endgame raids, high m+ and pvp matters for "true" wow player. So anything that doesnt give players more raw power is deemed as worthless. At best it is looked upon as "those silly things filthy casuals do".

  6. #126
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I honestly don't get the listening to the community thing. If anything I feel the power of ffxiv is that they don't. At least not too much.

    Compared to wow where the development seems to be "go to mmo champion and official forums. See what's getting bitched about the most then change it in the next expansion." if that's not listening then I don't know what is.
    Okay, I'm game. Name one feature beside beside a glmaour log that the vast majority of the playerbase is asking for and Yoshida flat out said, no. Name one example of "You think you do, but you don't."

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Okay, I'm game. Name one feature beside beside a glmaour log that the vast majority of the playerbase is asking for and Yoshida flat out said, no. Name one example of "You think you do, but you don't."
    I like that you specified vast majority without any metric to define it, which would allow to disprove anything. But OK, I'll bite: showing if item is collected in tooltip, letting people experience 1.0 story in any way (question about 1.0 Classic was answered with "You think you do, but you don't" in all but phrasing), making housing instanced and unlimited, harder 4-man content.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    I like that you specified vast majority without any metric to define it, which would allow to disprove anything. But OK, I'll bite: showing if item is collected in tooltip, letting people experience 1.0 story in any way (question about 1.0 Classic was answered with "You think you do, but you don't" in all but phrasing), making housing instanced and unlimited, harder 4-man content.
    And I like that you are immediately waving around the victim card. "I am doomed to fail". In a fanbase this large, you can find requests for just about anything. I have seen request threads on the official forums asking for Strawberry Shortcake being a playable race. A line has to be drawn.

    Now you did provide evidence for him denying 1.0. But we don't know how many would actually want classic servers. And as you know he was brought into the project pretty much to undo 1.0. A game that nearly bankrupt the company. That is like asking for class WoD servers.

    But fair is fair. You sort of gave an answer. We feel that Yoshida and his team care more about the playerbase and listen more than Ion and his team. You don't. That's okay. I honestly believe that the WoW fanbase diserve a better dev team, but I can't dictate how people feel, nor do I want. I encourage everyone to give FFXIV a chance, but ultimately play the game they enjoy more.

  9. #129
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    There's a lot I love about FFXIV. The Music is perhaps maybe the greatest part.



    Spent hours just crafting in Idyllshire with the Music Volume set to Max for this song.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I'm still super new to the game, so take with a grain of salt, but the two things I'm loving most are:

    1) The visuals. The game is fucking beautiful. I was worried that the anime stylings of a JRPG style MMO would turn me off (and I don't really love the character designs) but the scenery and overall landscapes are just gorgeous. Each zone type has a beauty that is unique to that zone, and it really works and letting you marvel at the world around you.

    2) The immersion of the game world. The world feels more alive than WoW does. The cities feel more populated and more full, their layouts tend to be more interesting, and the NPCs you encounter are more varied and the simple act of having so many of them named is a great touch. Where WoW cities feel sterile and purely utilitarian from a gameplay perspective, FF14 cities feel like an actual place where things happen.
    little titbit. the more playyers are in a city, the louder the ambient background chatter becomes

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post
    little titbit. the more playyers are in a city, the louder the ambient background chatter becomes
    If this is true then it actually blows my mind about the tiny details that nobody would ever notice but they did it anyway...

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post

    Spent hours just crafting in Idyllshire with the Music Volume set to Max for this song.
    My fav past time is to just swim around the ruby sea, listening to the evening theme. Easily my favorite overworld theme.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    If this is true then it actually blows my mind about the tiny details that nobody would ever notice but they did it anyway...
    Can confirm. I love these small tidbits.

  13. #133
    Just made the move from WoW to FF14. I thought Classic BC would keep me entertained but seeing so many already 70 with epic flying mount and P2W stuff (like boost, mage boosting, GDPK etc) already taking control over the servers is just depressing and I want to keep the good memories from OG TBC.

    Disclaimer, i was a fan of Yoshida's work long before WoW vanilla ever existed. Mostly FF Tactics / Vagrant Story back in 1997/1998. Because of that i guess i was made to switch to FF after 14 years of WoW in my case.

    The more i play the more i like. I never got to play FFXI back then but one of my best IRL friends adored it, and if FFXIV is similar to XI i can understand why he did.

    I picked a Lalafell Pugilist (for now F2P). Races are OK but I wish we could play Moogles or other FF creatures. The elf race seem out of place for me in a FF. The world reminds me Ivalice. I just love the design. I am only lvl 25 though, but i can't wait to discover more. In general i feel like the game respect my time compared to WoW: teleportation, detailed map etc. Then it respects my wallet: FTP to 60 is crazy. It seems to be a ton of content just there.

    The main huge argument for me is the fact that you can have only one toon and switch /level up jobs like in FFT.

    For just cruising casually / solo for the moment and i think it is awesome. I feel a bit silly to realize how good this game is just now ^_^

    Edit: forgot to name the music. It is so so good.
    Last edited by Gratlim; 2021-06-12 at 02:27 PM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    And I like that you are immediately waving around the victim card. "I am doomed to fail". In a fanbase this large, you can find requests for just about anything. I have seen request threads on the official forums asking for Strawberry Shortcake being a playable race. A line has to be drawn.
    It's not really about victim card, I just feel that adding unprovable conditions to your question is unfair and any answer could easily be dismissed by saying "oh, yeah, Yoshi-P said that, but it's not like vast majority asked for it, just some niche part of the playerbase". The ones I've named at least had no vocal opposition, there are popular requests like reducing combos to one button with updating skill similar to how PvP already does that. Maybe most people actually love sitting in the middle of cutscene when duty finder gives you an option to enter dungeon, but you entered queue on different job and your only options are either skipping cutscene (not quitting it and allowing you to watch it later like you do when you enter DF party on your current job, just skipping) or declining invitation. Maybe different ingame windows randomly blocking each other is really popular in the playerbase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Now you did provide evidence for him denying 1.0. But we don't know how many would actually want classic servers. And as you know he was brought into the project pretty much to undo 1.0. A game that nearly bankrupt the company. That is like asking for class WoD servers.

    But fair is fair. You sort of gave an answer. We feel that Yoshida and his team care more about the playerbase and listen more than Ion and his team. You don't. That's okay. I honestly believe that the WoW fanbase diserve a better dev team, but I can't dictate how people feel, nor do I want. I encourage everyone to give FFXIV a chance, but ultimately play the game they enjoy more.
    His team was working on improving 1.0 while making ARR and apparently people really enjoyed the game in the final versions. It was still very different from FFXIV ARR onwards that concentrated on copying almost every aspect of WotLK endgame. With some work on UI and some other QoL things 1.0 might have had its' niche for people who prefer slower and methodical gameplay.

    By the way, I haven't played retail WoW since 2017, so you don't have to redirect conversation to Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    Disclaimer, i was a fan of Yoshida's work long before WoW vanilla ever existed. Mostly FF Tactics / Vagrant Story back in 1997/1998. Because of that i guess i was made to switch to FF after 14 years of WoW in my case.
    Apparently you weren't big enough fan to know the difference between artist Akihiko Yoshida and game producer Naoki Yoshida.
    Last edited by Rogalicus; 2021-06-12 at 02:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  15. #135
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    1) Community is overall far friendlier than WoW's. I joined a dungeon as a tank, and I told everyone it was my 1st time there. Two other players explained me in detail what was going on, and the thing went out damn smoothly.

    2) Casual friendly. The hardcore crowd gets to have fun with savage stuff, but the game isn't structured to please them.

    3) No mandatory chores. You reach max level, and that's it, you're ready to tackle endgame. Completely unlikely WoW, which as of late forces you to play an incomplete class at max level until you are through with your chores.

    4) Both cities and the open world feel alive. Very subjective, I know, but when you compare it to Oribos or even #$&@ing Orgrimmar, the difference is night and day.

    4) Story (so far, at least) is leagues ahead of WoW's incoherent, retcon-laden and virtue-signaling mumbo jumbo.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I honestly don't get the listening to the community thing. If anything I feel the power of ffxiv is that they don't. At least not too much.

    Compared to wow where the development seems to be "go to mmo champion and official forums. See what's getting bitched about the most then change it in the next expansion." if that's not listening then I don't know what is.
    Must be the result of WoW devs flip flopping between design philosophies.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    1) Community is overall far friendlier than WoW's. I joined a dungeon as a tank, and I told everyone it was my 1st time there. Two other players explained me in detail what was going on, and the thing went out damn smoothly.

    2) Casual friendly. The hardcore crowd gets to have fun with savage stuff, but the game isn't structured to please them.

    3) No mandatory chores. You reach max level, and that's it, you're ready to tackle endgame. Completely unlikely WoW, which as of late forces you to play an incomplete class at max level until you are through with your chores.

    4) Both cities and the open world feel alive. Very subjective, I know, but when you compare it to Oribos or even #$&@ing Orgrimmar, the difference is night and day.

    4) Story (so far, at least) is leagues ahead of WoW's incoherent, retcon-laden and virtue-signaling mumbo jumbo.
    1. That is a subjective point, been in 100s of nice dungeon runs with people that are new and there was no toxicity
    2. How isnt WoW Casual friendly exactly?
    3. How exactly? because you need to craft leggos and level Sanctum for the extra conduits? they're really minor anyways and you can just start like that. Also every MMO has chores, guarantee you theres a few in FFXIV as well
    4. Subjective but i hear this is at least mostly true lol

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    I like to think of FFXIV as a good book you can recommend to a friend. Just because they haven't read it yet doesn't mean they're "behind." They've just yet to experience it. You get excited yourself because you want to see how they react to various plot points scattered throughout... you aren't simply waiting for them to finish it.

    Whereas WoW is more like your high school prom. If you want to experience it properly, you need to do so when it's relevant. If you go to that prom years later... it's going to be weird, man. You missed out on the intended experience.
    This is an excellent analogy!

  19. #139
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    It's not really about victim card, I just feel that adding unprovable conditions to your question is unfair and any answer could easily be dismissed by saying "oh, yeah, Yoshi-P said that, but it's not like vast majority asked for it, just some niche part of the playerbase". The ones I've named at least had no vocal opposition, there are popular requests like reducing combos to one button with updating skill similar to how PvP already does that. Maybe most people actually love sitting in the middle of cutscene when duty finder gives you an option to enter dungeon, but you entered queue on different job and your only options are either skipping cutscene (not quitting it and allowing you to watch it later like you do when you enter DF party on your current job, just skipping) or declining invitation. Maybe different ingame windows randomly blocking each other is really popular in the playerbase.


    His team was working on improving 1.0 while making ARR and apparently people really enjoyed the game in the final versions. It was still very different from FFXIV ARR onwards that concentrated on copying almost every aspect of WotLK endgame. With some work on UI and some other QoL things 1.0 might have had its' niche for people who prefer slower and methodical gameplay.

    By the way, I haven't played retail WoW since 2017, so you don't have to redirect conversation to Blizzard.
    For the first part, nobody said people like overlapping windows. But I don't recall Yoshida saying it will not be fixed. There is a difference between I won't do it (classic servers), we want to but we don't have the resources for it (glamour log), or it is not the priority at the moment (X-box version). If you are a game developer you can say so, but as far as I know neither of us are developing games so we can't know how much time it takes to do complete interface overhauls.

    For the second point even you have to admit what you say is not a strong argument "If they take the patched version of 1.0 that was only created to provide a transition to 2.0, add a few improvements that werent there to begin with, they might find a niche audience". Nobody would keep servers up for this, especially when they already don't have enough resources to do what they want to do in the base game.

    As for me redirecting you to Blizzard? Your only contribution to the What we like about the game thread was "they don't listen to the players". It is fair to assume that you probably hate the game. And since you said that Blizzard listents to the playerbase more, it is fair to assume that you would feel better in WoW.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    As for me redirecting you to Blizzard? Your only contribution to the What we like about the game thread was "they don't listen to the players". It is fair to assume that you probably hate the game. And since you said that Blizzard listents to the playerbase more, it is fair to assume that you would feel better in WoW.
    I don't hate the game and I don't think that Blizzard listens to players in any significant capacity, my only argument was that SE isn't much better. Most of dev appreciation posts don't even give any proper reasons besides SE adopting community memes, which isn't surprising considering that Koji Fox is memelord and the game is already ridden with stupid references and random jokes (like fat cat's flavour text describing it as eldritch abomination).
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

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