If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[Stardrift]

Take a stroll through search sometime, see just how many Horde posters screech about [deleted and yeeted]

Edit:
Two posts down, an example is provided.

Edit: Yeeted and deleted my original statement because I didn't see the post directly above.

But moving on. Orcs are inspired by Warhammer Orcs. Numberless, and bred specifically for war. Blizzard took the Warhammer Orcs and turned them into a "savage nobles" type by tacking on this code of honour that they always boast about but clearly lack.

The problem with the Horde starts with their hypocrisy and bloodlust to commit genocide. Not.. whatever else people mention above.

[VladlTutushkin]

SURE.... if they gave the Horde half of ashenvale it might have stemmed the tide of war... until the Horde wanted more, and then what, they give them half of the half left, and then when they once again "need" more. Please, with Garrosh leading the Orcs they would have never been satisfied.

Reminder - goblins managed to pollute Azshara to the point of water being undrinkable even by orcs in only three years.

[Syegfryed]

The draenei asked for help. The orcs just showed up and started taking what they wanted. Two very different approaches, resulting in very different responses.


Nah, must be raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacism. Couldn't possibly be anything else.

they literally had an agreement that the night elves stop, that had no reason for.

the only different approach is how the night elves hypocritically, didn't start attacking draeneis on sight, like they did with orcs, at that time they had to make then more bearable and less xenophobic for the general elf supremacist.

[VladlTutushkin]

they literally had an agreement that the night elves stop, that had no reason for.

the only different approach is how the night elves hypocritically, didn't start attacking draeneis on sight, like they did with orcs, at that time they had to make then more bearable and less xenophobic for the general elf supremacist.

Maybe because draenei were not actively attacking their hearthland?

After all night elfs gave up on Azshara in favor of the Horde, and draenei were in Azuremist , not in Ashenvale.

[Syegfryed]

Not really since unlike Ashenvale Azuremyst Isles had been majorly abandonned by the Night Elves, with only a small Kaldorei population still living on the islands, and they don't have the same sentimental value than Ashenvale to them.

That is again, bullshit and subjective reasons, the real point here is at the time, night elves were xenophobic isolationists, at the time TBC landed, they didn't write then like that anymore. It is all "their land", and their main population was not in ashenvale either, depite, orcs only settinlg in the border to get a bit of resources.

So the Draenei settling here wasn't going to dislodge thousands of NE, nor forcing them to cede some beloved home to strangers.

Neither the orcs would? like, the orcs were completely fine with just the trade, trade that the night elves refuse to keep and refuse any agreement.

And the Draenei had proved themselves far friendlier and more trustworthy in the Night Elves' eyes by healing the NE who had been injured or irradiated by the crash of the Exodar and by becoming their allies.

Let alone that the orcs and the horde helped then against the burning legion saving their forest too, but lets just ignore that

And the vast majority of the Night Elves don't know about Cenarius having forgiven the Orcs

You want to point that is about they being ignorant on the subject? come on now, unless you want to make then be straight up stupid and not know the words of their demigod.

As for Garrosh it's not just because of the war that he wanted for more, he was thirsty for Alliance blood already before the battle of the Undercity and wasn't willing to negociate at all when Thrall and Cairne were willing to negociate with the Night Elves despite Varian having officially declared war on the Horde.

He was throw himself in a war, of course he want to win and command the continent, that would not had happened if the alliance didnt star a war on the horde.

Again, this of him not being "willing to negotiate" is BS, the trade deal was ended by the night elves by wrathgate, while under thrall rule, and they keep refusing to make a new one, thats only then when Garroshd ecide to take by force.

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Maybe because draenei were not actively attacking their hearthland?

After all night elfs gave up on Azshara in favor of the Horde, and draenei were in Azuremist , not in Ashenvale.

their ship literally crashed on their land "killing" more trees than the orcs did, but those trees was ok to fuck up i guess? so, the point of respecting nature is only valid for SOME trees? the ones they arbitrary decide? that is indeed hypocritical argument fit for elves

[VladlTutushkin]

That is again, bullshit and subjective reasons, the real point here is at the time, night elves were xenophobic isolationists, at the time TBC landed, they didn't write then like that anymore. It is all "their land", and their main population was not in ashenvale either, depite, orcs only settinlg in the border to get a bit of resources.


Neither the orcs would? like, the orcs were completely fine with just the trade, trade that the night elves refuse to keep and refuse any agreement.



Let alone that the orcs and the horde helped then against the burning legion saving their forest too, but lets just ignore that



You want to point that is about they being ignorant on the subject? come on now, unless you want to make then be straight up stupid and not know the words of their demigod.


He was throw himself in a war, of course he want to win and command the continent, that would not had happened if the alliance didnt star a war on the horde.

Again, this of him not being "willing to negotiate" is BS, the trade deal was ended by the night elves by wrathgate, while under thrall rule, and they keep refusing to make a new one, thats only then when Garroshd ecide to take by force.

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their ship literally crashed on their land "killing" more trees than the orcs did, but those trees was ok to fuck up i guess? so, the point of respecting nature is only valid for SOME trees? the ones they arbitrary decide? that is indeed hypocritical argument fit for elves

When talking to Anduin in a cell after MoP he outright said that NO MATTER the resources, NO MATTER the circumstance or Alliance stance on that there WOULD HAVE BEING WAR. Because he saw war as the only way of the Horde. Its almost "sacred" (although he didnt used the word) right that they will eventually come to, no matter if their soon to be enemies are hostile, peaceful or even trying to placate them.

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That is again, bullshit and subjective reasons, the real point here is at the time, night elves were xenophobic isolationists, at the time TBC landed, they didn't write then like that anymore. It is all "their land", and their main population was not in ashenvale either, depite, orcs only settinlg in the border to get a bit of resources.


Neither the orcs would? like, the orcs were completely fine with just the trade, trade that the night elves refuse to keep and refuse any agreement.



Let alone that the orcs and the horde helped then against the burning legion saving their forest too, but lets just ignore that



You want to point that is about they being ignorant on the subject? come on now, unless you want to make then be straight up stupid and not know the words of their demigod.


He was throw himself in a war, of course he want to win and command the continent, that would not had happened if the alliance didnt star a war on the horde.

Again, this of him not being "willing to negotiate" is BS, the trade deal was ended by the night elves by wrathgate, while under thrall rule, and they keep refusing to make a new one, thats only then when Garroshd ecide to take by force.

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their ship literally crashed on their land "killing" more trees than the orcs did, but those trees was ok to fuck up i guess? so, the point of respecting nature is only valid for SOME trees? the ones they arbitrary decide? that is indeed hypocritical argument fit for elves

Also fuck off with "hypocritical", crash-landing is an accident, clear cutting only happens on purpose. If you ran someone with your car its a crime, if your brakes gave up and you lost control over the car due to a mechanical issue its an accident.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

First impressions matter a lot : when the Orcs first encountered the Night Elves they had still some fel energy inside them and they started to cut the trees, and later killed Cenarius after drinking demon blood again.

When the Draenei arrived on Azeorh and met the Night Elves of Azuremyst Isle the Draenei healed many Night Elves injured by the crash or irradiated by the energies caused by it, and they began to try healing the land that was irridiated by magical energies. While the NE of the island were certainely afraid of the Draenei at first, it's most likely that once the Night Elves of the mainland met the Draenei for the first that some of them spoke on the Draenei's behlaf and told them how the Draenei nursed them and animals back to health, besides the Dranei certainely told them quickly that they had heard about the Alliance and wanted to join it. Besides no one can deny that the Draenei are far gentler and more prone to talk than orcs.

[Syegfryed]

When talking to Anduin in a cell after MoP

Sure, lets take that, instance, when everything, literally, everything, including the path blizzard took with the character changed, as an excuse, despite not rly being important to the discussion.

It does not matter if "garrosh planned" all along or would ahve done, since TBC, he still did because they are at war, period.

Also fuck off with "hypocritical", crash-landing is an accident, clear cutting only happens on purpose. If you ran someone with your car its a crime, if your brakes gave up and you lost control over the car due to a mechanical issue its an accident.

yep, destroy the landmass and the trees is good, taking resources to build homes and other things? UNNACEPTABLE

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First impressions matter a lot : when the Orcs first encountered the Night Elves they had still some fel energy inside them and they started to cut the trees, and later killed Cenarius after drinking demon blood again.

they didn't, that is an outright lie, night elves didn't feel shit, cause they could not, otherwise they would have feelt the demons lurking in their place long before, you know, including how there was sacred wheel with demon blood on it. ONLY cenarius knew, and it was far later when he reached the battlefield he sense it.

They killed then because they were merely cutting trees, thats it.

If "first impressions matter" they would shoot draeneis on sight by their eredar appearance, but again, that didn't happened because TBC already moved the night elves xenophobic isolationist route.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

And it's not like Garrosh was a diplomatic and reasonnable warchief who only went to war because there was no other solution and who wanted to make as little casualties as possible, nor that he tried any negocation with the Alliance, nor that he didn't want the Horde to be at war with the Alliance.

Garrosh had been out for Alliance blood well before Varian declared war on the Horde, and he certainely enjoyed this declaration far more that he regretted it since it was making sure that he would get his chance to use force against the Alliance. He was never going to try to negociate with the Night Elves.

[DatToffer]

Regardless of that, they should have taught them the way to build wood structures without actually cutting trees.

[Syegfryed]

And it's not like Garrosh was a diplomatic and reasonnable warchief who only went to war because there was no other solution and who wanted to make as little casualties as possible, nor that he tried any negocation with the Alliance, nor that he didn't want the Horde to be at war with the Alliance.

Why he would negotiate if the alliance literally claimed full open war on then, cease all the trade and start attacking then in all fronts? Varian said he wanted to wipe the orcs out, do you think he seeing those things and his people dying by famine he would have to "negotiate" all by himself while being gangbangued by the alliance? come on.

Garrosh had been out for Alliance blood well before Varian declared war on the Horde,

That is the part that does not matter, since the alliance fuelled his thirsty, if they didn't, he would just sit still and not even be warchief to begin with

He was never going to try to negociate with the Night Elves.

The night elves would never negotiate, period. again, trying to put the blame on him, but the night elves who ended the trade while in thrall leadership

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Why he would negotiate if the alliance literally claimed full open war on then, cease all the trade and start attacking then in all fronts? Varian said he wanted to wipe the orcs out, do you think he seeing those things and his people dying by famine he would have to "negotiate" all by himself while being gangbangued by the alliance? come on.



That is the part that does not matter, since the alliance fuelled his thirsty, if they didn't, he would just sit still and not even be warchief to begin with



The night elves would never negotiate, period. again, trying to put the blame on him, but the night elves who ended the trade while in thrall leadership

Why would he not try to negociate when Thrall and Cairne were willing to give it a try ? The Horde and the Alliance were not at open war at the time, and Hamuul Runetotem and other tauren druids were able to obtain a meeting with Night Elves druids, indicating that Night Elves weren't completely close to talk, at least much more than Garrosh was.

And as I said above the Alliance and the Horde weren't at open war yet, it was Garrosh's attacks on Ashenvale that caused it to really happen. The Alliance wasn't attacking them on all fronts unlike what you said.

And Garrosh wouldn't have needed the Alliance to fuel his thirst if he was already unable of controlling it, had not as much of a good excuse as Varian or even Thrall to justify his complete hatred of the Alliance and refusal to even talk with them.

[VladlTutushkin]

Sure, lets take that, instance, when everything, literally, everything, including the path blizzard took with the character changed, as an excuse, despite not rly being important to the discussion.

It does not matter if "garrosh planned" all along or would ahve done, since TBC, he still did because they are at war, period.



yep, destroy the landmass and the trees is good, taking resources to build homes and other things? UNNACEPTABLE

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they didn't, that is an outright lie, night elves didn't feel shit, cause they could not, otherwise they would have feelt the demons lurking in their place long before, you know, including how there was sacred wheel with demon blood on it. ONLY cenarius knew, and it was far later when he reached the battlefield he sense it.

They killed then because they were merely cutting trees, thats it.

If "first impressions matter" they would shoot draeneis on sight by their eredar appearance, but again, that didn't happened because TBC already moved the night elves xenophobic isolationist route.

Have draenei purposefully crashed into it? Dont play a moron here. Or are you one? Then sorry, i might have being too harsh.

[Super Dickmann]

Why would he not try to negociate when Thrall and Cairne were willing to give it a try ? The Horde and the Alliance were not at open war at the time, and Hamuul Runetotem and other tauren druids were able to obtain a meeting with Night Elves druids, indicating that Night Elves weren't completely close to talk, at least much more than Garrosh was.

Because Thrall and Cairne's negotiation was an abysmal failure, much like Thrall's leadership in general regarding keeping the orcs sustained. By Wrath, the orcs were resource dependant on handouts from the Alliance, ones that are cut off when Varian declares war on the Horde in the Undercity to the point of starvation - see Glory or Heart of War, specifically going on about how he's looking forward to destroying green-skinned abominations. The night elves had by then cut off trade. Garrosh is under no obligation to try and treat with people who were the ones to start it in all regards and who've told the previous guy in charge, an appeaser through and through, to go fuck himself. Hell, the very reason Garrosh, who had no prior animus vs. humans on account of never having seen one pre-Wrath was so gung-ho about war was because he'd seen the state of the orcs as a result of Thrall's Alliance-pandering policies.

[VladlTutushkin]

Because Thrall and Cairne's negotiation was an abysmal failure, much like Thrall's leadership in general regarding keeping the orcs sustained. By Wrath, the orcs were resource dependant on handouts from the Alliance, ones that are cut off when Varian declares war on the Horde in the Undercity to the point of starvation - see Glory or Heart of War, specifically going on about how he's looking forward to destroying green-skinned abominations. The night elves had by then cut off trade. Garrosh is under no obligation to try and treat with people who were the ones to start it in all regards and who've told the previous guy in charge, an appeaser through and through, to go fuck himself.

I hope one day horde gets to experience what Alliance and night elfs already went through. Genuinely.

You will cry tears of blood and unsubscribe.

[Super Dickmann]

I hope one day horde gets to experience what Alliance and night elfs already went through. Genuinely.

You will cry tears of blood and unsubscribe.

Oh, please, as an orc fan we raided our own capital for a full year of content drought and killed most of our own characters over a war the orcs didn't even start and by this point we're down to Thrall and Eitrigg. An entire expansion was based around offing our WC2 cast, that being our oldest named characters on behalf of a WC2 Alliance character while we had zero role in pursuing the Legion. The orcs lost exponentially more than the night elves in terms of cast and narrative relevance, with the caveat that their fanbase doesn't spend every waking moment bitching about it for what are close to four years now.

[Syegfryed]

Have draenei purposefully crashed into it? Dont play a moron here. Or are you one? Then sorry, i might have being too harsh.

Did the orcs knew the ashenvalen lands were already taken before being welcomed with arrows?

i know you want they to already "assume" is someone house, so it is rly funny to call me a moron when all you do is spite bias and headcanon

[VladlTutushkin]

Did the orcs knew the ashenvalen lands were already taken before being welcomed with arrows?

i know you want they to already "assume" is someone house, so it is rly funny to call me a moron when all you do is spite bias and headcanon

I neither do headcanon nor bias, before BfA i was hardcore pro-both factions and loved both for their aesthetics but you, spiteful fucks ruined it for me and made me hate the Horde.

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Oh, please, as an orc fan we raided our own capital for a full year of content drought and killed most of our own characters over a war the orcs didn't even start and by this point we're down to Thrall and Eitrigg. An entire expansion was based around offing our WC2 cast, that being our oldest named characters on behalf of a WC2 Alliance character while we had zero role in pursuing the Legion. The orcs lost exponentially more than the night elves in terms of cast and narrative relevance, with the caveat that their fanbase doesn't spend every waking moment bitching about it for what are close to four years now.

You know that its not whole truth.

As i said - if Alliance gets to be as brutal and merciless as the Horde and pummel you for several expansions with impunity i am all for you weakly creeping into our capital, killing some chumps and getting out like a wind, leaving empty threat behind and giving us some juicy land rights.

Kill the cast! They are worse then dead anyway! But you will drown in your own blood first!

Also, Shandris basically the same as Saurfang or Eitrigg now, and she is our "second most important character".

I am done taking it lying, done holding it back. I will speak as i see fit.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Because Thrall and Cairne's negotiation was an abysmal failure, much like Thrall's leadership in general regarding keeping the orcs sustained. By Wrath, the orcs were resource dependant on handouts from the Alliance, ones that are cut off when Varian declares war on the Horde in the Undercity to the point of starvation - see Glory or Heart of War, specifically going on about how he's looking forward to destroying green-skinned abominations. The night elves had by then cut off trade. Garrosh is under no obligation to try and treat with people who were the ones to start it in all regards and who've told the previous guy in charge, an appeaser through and through, to go fuck himself. Hell, the very reason Garrosh, who had no prior animus vs. humans on account of never having seen one pre-Wrath was so gung-ho about war was because he'd seen the state of the orcs as a result of Thrall's Alliance-pandering policies.

The last one weren't total failures until the Twilight Hammer put its grain of salt here to ruin every chance of the two factions coming to a compromise.

And it's not like Garrosh was trying to understand why the Alliance races would be so distrustful of the Horde when he himself had never grown out of his Old Horde ideology, with him still believing that the Horde should take lands and ressources without negociation and focusing on the Alliance's wrongs while glossing over the Horde's own, barring using Fel magic and drinking Mannoroth's blood.

While the Alliance certainely had their wrongs in being so butthurt about the Horde getting ressources, Garrosh was certainely not the one qualified to respond to them and he was never going to make things really better for the Horde when the only language he wanted to understand with the Alliance was violence.

[scrappybristol]

That would be a really weak move.

Give up half of your sacred forest to placate an invading alien force?

Might as well be France in WW2.