Could serious race agency make a difference even improve your enjoyment of wow?

[ravenmoon]

Actually, Blood Elves should not have anything to do with the Netherstorm on Outland. That piece of content should, 100% go to Void Elf players.

Blood Elves should have everything that's either associated with the Mages, Blood Knights or the Farstriders. There's no point in trying to build up "Silvermoon/Quel'Thalas" Warlock lore. It's never been a big thing with the Blood Elves. The only NPC in Silvermoon that is a Warlock is the Archaeology trainer and the Tailoring shop owner. Hell, Stormwind has more Warlocks than Silvermoon.

I reckon the Blood gem should go to Blood Elf Mages and Warlocks (this is more fitting), so the Paladins and Priests can have full access to the Sunwell. After, I reckon something involving Deatholme and trying to find the roots of Thas'Alah would be something for the Blood Elf Farstrider army.

Void Elves - these guys should have more to do in Outland and possibly even claim Tempest Keep as their base of operations. Why not? It's in the Nether, Void Elves draw upon the nether arcane energies as well as fel magic. Void Elf Mages and Warlock would fit better in Netherstorm than the current Blood Elves would.
Void Elves capturing Tempest Keep (it being the old base of operations for Kael'Thas) would feel like poetic justice. A mighty stronghold steeped in Arcane and Void magics. It's food and drink for the Void Elves.

Says you, but I can assure you there are other players who very much like the fel elves, and the blood lves being masters of fel magic thanks to the events of WC3 TFT through to TBC.

I don't see why blood elves need to somehow be fixed at only arcane, light and hunting. That seems to be something that should be a mark of high elves. Blood elves should be more flexible, more expansive, and this is what gives them their edge.. they hunt new magics... void is the one they let slip away, but it allows a counterpart on the alliance in the void elves.. void elves can be the adventurous Thalassians on the alliance side, while allowign high elves to be exactly that, that vanilla type - always been this way, and this is always what they will be.. but it's okay, the blood elves and void elves came form them. It would also give you an insight tot he kaldorei, from which all elves came.

I wouldn't be averse to void elves gaining territory in outland.. but a blood elf fan shoudln't be so willing to cede terirtory for their race who has so little, and could lose what they have.. unless your otivations are some twisted end goal to have blood elves secure quel'thalas. Maybe you think if the void lves get Netherstorm then the chances of alliance gaining Quel'thalas is much slimmer. A bit twisted mate.

Anyway, keeping outland strongholds and expanding them I think would be good for the blood elves, I would at least have them keep hellfire pensinsula, and turn it into a super city. The fel elves can stay in HFP too, if the void elves go Netherstorm, that matches the current lore of working with teh Naaru and draenei, anad a lot of void lore there too.. so it has an appeal..

Would be interesting if outland gets developed if HFP went to blood elves, and Netherstorm went to Void elves, meanwhile Eversong goes incl a restored Ghostlands High Elves, Silvermoon and the surrounding areas is neutral ground for all Thalassian elves, Quel'thalas went largely high elf, but was this sort of neutral ground for all Thalassians. San'layn get EPL

[Tanaria]

Says you, but I can assure you there are other players who very much like the fel elves, and the blood lves being masters of fel magic thanks to the events of WC3 TFT through to TBC.

We have fel elves in the Night Elf and Blood Elf Demon Hunters.

And we're confusing the Sunfury hostile Blood Elves with the Silvermoon Blood Elves.

The Sunfury ones are the people who took to draining magic out of Demons. They are the ones who later became the Felblood Elves and it's these very Elves that attacked Silvermoon. We had other Blood Elves who became the Sunblade and Dawnblade forces, who were also remnant Sunfury.

Silvermoon Blood Elves were never "masters of fel magic" because the practice wasn't that big. Most Blood Elven Magisters kept being Mages, but practiced Fire Magic along with draining the magic out of arcane creatures. It was only after, they started truly developing their skills in Blood Magic.
The race that is most deserving to be "the master of fel magic" (as far as the playable races go) would go to the Orcs, considering the Orcs made up some of the most powerful mortal Warlocks in the lore.

The only Sunfury who returned to Silvermoon, as far as we can tell, are Farstriders and Rangers who were part of said force, since the returned Sunfury aided the Silvermoon Farstriders in securing Quel'Thalas.

Says you, but I can assure you there are other players who very much like the fel elves, and the blood lves being masters of fel magic thanks to the events of WC3 TFT through to TBC.

I don't see why blood elves need to somehow be fixed at only arcane, light and hunting. That seems to be something that should be a mark of high elves. Blood elves should be more flexible, more expansive, and this is what gives them their edge.. they hunt new magics... void is the one they let slip away, but it allows a counterpart on the alliance in the void elves.. void elves can be the adventurous Thalassians on the alliance side, while allowign high elves to be exactly that, that vanilla type - always been this way, and this is always what they will be.. but it's okay, the blood elves and void elves came form them. It would also give you an insight tot he kaldorei, from which all elves came.

I wouldn't be averse to void elves gaining territory in outland.. but a blood elf fan shoudln't be so willing to cede terirtory for their race who has so little, and could lose what they have.. unless your otivations are some twisted end goal to have blood elves secure quel'thalas. Maybe you think if the void lves get Netherstorm then the chances of alliance gaining Quel'thalas is much slimmer. A bit twisted mate.

Magisters, Blood Knights and Farstriders are the key operations within Blood Elf society. They might appear to be "High Elf" like, but unlike the High Elves, the Blood Elves fight, die and bleed for Quel'Thalas. A portion of High Elves always held concerns for their Alliance allies - but not Blood Elves. They will help the Nightborne, if they need it - and maybe the Forsaken, but they are truly focused on protecting and defending their land of Quel'Thalas. The Third War taught them that they can never take their lands for granted and the Blood Elves have now never done that.

And the Void Elves gaining Netherstorm has got nothing to do with the Blood Elves keeping Quel'Thalas (as they should.) The Silvermoon Blood Elves have very little relation to Netherstorm and they have no business going. The fel crystals that were around Silvermoon have been replaced by Blood Gems. The only connections that Silvermoon has to Outland as a whole, would be the Scryers who, as far as WoD went, were still operating in Shattrath.

The region of Netherstorm matches the Void Elves better, due to it being a land steeped so heavily in the Arcane, but also a zone that seems lost to the Twisting Nether. Claiming Tempest Keep would be a huge boon for the Void Elves and their arcane skills could see this citadel be teleported to Telogrus and they can have an advanced arcane capital.

And it doesn't matter how much a race has. Nightborne only have Suramar. Blood Elves only have 3 zones - you'll find, that's quite common for a lot of races. Blood Elves only having Eversong, Ghostlands and Quel'Danas (as well as their capital) is actually fine with many Blood Elf fans. You won't see many Blood Elf fans demanding more lands...indeed, we want an updated version to the three lands that are very important to our race.
And what's twisted about it? Why is their such a front with getting Blood Elves out of their lands and onto Outland or something rubbish like Azshara or Bloodmyst? Blood Elves deserve to stay where they are, as do the Draenei, because their lands need updating, for both Horde players (Blood Elves) and Alliance players (Draenei) alike.

Anyway, keeping outland strongholds and expanding them I think would be good for the blood elves, I would at least have them keep hellfire pensinsula, and turn it into a super city. The fel elves can stay in HFP too, if the void elves go Netherstorm, that matches the current lore of working with teh Naaru and draenei, anad a lot of void lore there too.. so it has an appeal..

Would be interesting if outland gets developed if HFP went to blood elves, and Netherstorm went to Void elves, meanwhile Eversong goes incl a restored Ghostlands High Elves, Silvermoon and the surrounding areas is neutral ground for all Thalassian elves, Quel'thalas went largely high elf, but was this sort of neutral ground for all Thalassians. San'layn get EPL

Blood Elves only had 1 Outland Camp (not even a Stronghold), which was a Horde location and that was the Farstrider Base in Hellfire. Aside from that, it was all hostile Sunfury bases.
This is why it doesn't make sense for the Blood Elves to go to Outland. Indeed, when many stepped through the Dark Portal, they were shocked and horrified that the Prince had called this "the promised land" when all it was, was a desolate waste-land, broken and fractured. Plus, Hellfire wasn't a Blood Elf zone - it's a zone that held ties to the Mag'har Orc clans and the Orcs in general. I don't see why we always have to cater to what Alliance Elf fans want, when Blood Elf fans know that this zone is just the Barrens, 2.0 and what...? We're expected to be happy with it? Please...Quel'Thalas is the zone that fits best for the Blood Elves since it's a Horde location and the Blood Elves fight, bleed and die for it.
Blood Elves shouldn't be moving anywhere, other than the Farstriders claiming the Ghostlands and seeing it restored. Also, stop going on about "Fel Elves." Night Elf and Blood Elf Demon Hunters, as far as the lore goes, are still neutral Illidari members and are based on Mardum. Hence why we don't see any of them fight in Darkshore or Arathi - they are not part of the Darnassian or Quel'Thalas fighting force.

And the High Elves aren't enough in number to win back anything. More are becoming Void Elves - High Elves, I reckon are staying in Stormwind, since the Silver Covenant seemingly left Dalaran with Jaina, or are members of the Kirin Tor and staying in Dalaran.

Lor'themar is Warchief, in all but name, whilst Thrall and Baine are away and he won't be standing for Alliance High Elves invading his homeland. If they want to return, then they pledge themselves to the Horde and to Lor'themar as their leader.

All of Outland, barring the Netherstorm doesn't work for the Elves in general. Void Elves and Netherstorm fit like a glove - almost like Blood Elves and Quel'Thalas fit like a glove.

[DatToffer]

We have fel elves in the Night Elf and Blood Elf Demon Hunters.

And we're confusing the Sunfury hostile Blood Elves with the Silvermoon Blood Elves.

Mastering fel energies has been the Blood elves thing during BC, Silvermoon are not. Of course it kinda stopped with the Sunwell restoration, but that association is still strong in the spirits. And since the Sunfuries were vanquished, you could see either the blood elves or the draenei getting the Nether Keep for themselves.

It could even be an interesting conflict point, with the blood elves holding the Keep, while draenei (and void elves if you really want them) try to get it back.

Although, I'll just say you're confusing Nether and Void. Nether being the plane of the demons, while the Void is well, the plane of the Void Lords. So yeah... There's no point for the Void Elves to get to the Nether. And I don't see why Void Elves using fel magic is more relevant than Blood Elves using fel magic.

[Tanaria]

Mastering fel energies has been the Blood elves thing during BC, Silvermoon are not. Of course it kinda stopped with the Sunwell restoration, but that association is still strong in the spirits. And since the Sunfuries were vanquished, you could see either the blood elves or the draenei getting the Nether Keep for themselves.

It could even be an interesting conflict point, with the blood elves holding the Keep, while draenei (and void elves if you really want them) try to get it back.

Although, I'll just say you're confusing Nether and Void. Nether being the plane of the demons, while the Void is well, the plane of the Void Lords. So yeah... There's no point for the Void Elves to get to the Nether. And I don't see why Void Elves using fel magic is more relevant than Blood Elves using fel magic.

Mastering fel wasn't the thing with the Sunfury Blood Elves. It was draining fel magic out of demons, that was their big kick - but then they joined forces, becoming pawns for Kil'jaedon.

Also - what keep? Tempest Keep? Draenei could have it as far as the Silvermoon Blood Elves are concerned. Why? Because the Horde Blood Elves care about restoring their immediate lands of Quel'Thalas, securing Silvermoon and ensuring the Sunwell is protected. Tempest Keep is nothing to them. You'll be hard pressed to find a Blood Elf fan who wants all these extra lands, when the main blood elf fanbase wants an updated Quel'Thalas.

If there's no point in Void Elves getting Tempest Keep, then it might as well remain desolate because the Blood Elves have their base on Azeroth. Within Tempest Keep, we saw the Sunfury wield both the Arcane and the Void magic...hell High Astromancer Solarian turned into a Voidwalker...this gives the Void Elves far more ground to claim Tempest Keep than it does for the Blood Elves.

Again - as much as I confuse Nether and Void, people do confuse Hostile Sunfury Blood Elves with the Horde Silvermoon Blood Elves.

[DatToffer]

If there's no point in Void Elves getting Tempest Keep, then it might as well remain desolate because the Blood Elves have their base on Azeroth. Within Tempest Keep, we saw the Sunfury wield both the Arcane and the Void magic...hell High Astromancer Solarian turned into a Voidwalker...this gives the Void Elves far more ground to claim Tempest Keep than it does for the Blood Elves.

In conclusion, let's not go to Outland anymore, tis a silly place.

[Ishayu]

So, this is concept I started developing a few months ago before work got busy, but I am too tired to really write a proper post about it.




The jist of it was that each race would get 3 "character archetypes" which each provides 1 of 3 racial abilities (mostly using the existing and parallel Allied Race racials); then 1 racial class-ability (as Priests once did) regardless of archtype. More-often-than-not this would be an enhanced version of an existing class spell. Both of these abilities can then be augmented with conduits. Conduits also provide racially-thematic Class passives. Finally, the archetype passives are class-agnostic.

To minimise dev-time they would want to create minimal class-specific bonuses and keep those class-specific bonuses agnostic of specialisation (invariably, like with covenant abilities, some would serve certain specs better than others) and try to incorporate all existing racials and re-skin existing conduits and some other stray legacy bonuses to prevent power bloat. This also has the benefit of making Allied races an entirely cosmetic decision/unlock.

Your initial archetype would be chosen at character creation, with the ability to re-spec being superficial (simply a case of going to visit an "archetype leader" out in the wild somewhere and doing a thematic quest for them). No conduit levels. No gated RNG unlocks. You unlock the whole system simply as a parallel to levelling.

Orc:Maghar - Oathbound (Orcish Clans themed), Warlord (Horde themed) and Bloodthirster (Chaos themed)
Troll:Zandalari - Defector (Blood and Sand), Shadow Hunter (inc. Witch Doctor) and Loa-Chosen
Nightborne:Belf - Aristocrat, Magistrix and Felsworn
Pandaren (Both Factions) - Lorewalker, Houjin and Tushui
Highmountain/Tauren - Nomad, Chieftain, Outcast
Mecha/Gnomes - Tinkerer, Researcher (Light/Arcane themed), Rebel (Defector?)
Worgen:Nelf - Wildling, Cursed (Death and Fire), Elune's Chosen (Light and Arcane)
Lightforged/Draenei - Man'ari, Lightsworn, Void-touched
Kul Tiran/Human - Bandit, Knight, Mariner
Dark Iron/Dwarf - Aerie, Mountaineer, Shadowforged

These four don't have direct Allied Race parallels so they adopt a mix of suitable other archetypes already mentioned, re-skinned and with access to some cross-faction archetype options. There's 3 original archetypes between them with Goblin and Vulpera mostly sharing a set, and Forsaken and Void Elves getting particularly extensive reskins archetypes which would reskin many of their abilities akin to Warlock Green Fire.

Golbin - Salvager, Alchemist, Tinkerer
Vulpera - Scavenger (Salvager Reskin), Tinkerer, Nomad (Caravan Reskin)
Forsaken - Apothecary (Alchemist Reskin), Cultist (Dark Ranger and Necromancers go brrr) and Champion (Knight Reskin)
Void Elves - Researcher (Void Themed), Magistrix (inc. Spatial Rift), Noble (High Elf Aristocrat Reskin, inc. Arcane Torrent)

Okay - first and foremost, I am in complete awe at how cool this sounds. I absolutely love it, because unlike Covenants this goes far more into the core of what your character is and really strongly gives a sense of identity - however it is also incredibly complicated, and because a race change costs money you can be absolutely sure that a whole lot of people will loose their minds over not being optimal in this or that or the other all the time...

But racial balance is also an issue in the current version of the game - and quite a lot at that as well actually.

Some of these talents are also just so insanily cool and doesn't mess with PvP or raiding, really. The one where you land from great heights into a warstomp is just so awesome it makes me excited on its own. Stomping people from above as a huge bull just sounds like such an awesome power fantasy.

[Tanaria]

In conclusion, let's not go to Outland anymore, tis a silly place.

Complete agreement.

[ravenmoon]

We have fel elves in the Night Elf and Blood Elf Demon Hunters.

And we're confusing the Sunfury hostile Blood Elves with the Silvermoon Blood Elves.

The Sunfury ones are the people who took to draining magic out of Demons. They are the ones who later became the Felblood Elves and it's these very Elves that attacked Silvermoon. We had other Blood Elves who became the Sunblade and Dawnblade forces, who were also remnant Sunfury.

Silvermoon Blood Elves were never "masters of fel magic" because the practice wasn't that big. Most Blood Elven Magisters kept being Mages, but practiced Fire Magic along with draining the magic out of arcane creatures. It was only after, they started truly developing their skills in Blood Magic.
The race that is most deserving to be "the master of fel magic" (as far as the playable races go) would go to the Orcs, considering the Orcs made up some of the most powerful mortal Warlocks in the lore.

The only Sunfury who returned to Silvermoon, as far as we can tell, are Farstriders and Rangers who were part of said force, since the returned Sunfury aided the Silvermoon Farstriders in securing Quel'Thalas.



Magisters, Blood Knights and Farstriders are the key operations within Blood Elf society. They might appear to be "High Elf" like, but unlike the High Elves, the Blood Elves fight, die and bleed for Quel'Thalas. A portion of High Elves always held concerns for their Alliance allies - but not Blood Elves. They will help the Nightborne, if they need it - and maybe the Forsaken, but they are truly focused on protecting and defending their land of Quel'Thalas. The Third War taught them that they can never take their lands for granted and the Blood Elves have now never done that.

And the Void Elves gaining Netherstorm has got nothing to do with the Blood Elves keeping Quel'Thalas (as they should.) The Silvermoon Blood Elves have very little relation to Netherstorm and they have no business going. The fel crystals that were around Silvermoon have been replaced by Blood Gems. The only connections that Silvermoon has to Outland as a whole, would be the Scryers who, as far as WoD went, were still operating in Shattrath.

The region of Netherstorm matches the Void Elves better, due to it being a land steeped so heavily in the Arcane, but also a zone that seems lost to the Twisting Nether. Claiming Tempest Keep would be a huge boon for the Void Elves and their arcane skills could see this citadel be teleported to Telogrus and they can have an advanced arcane capital.

And it doesn't matter how much a race has. Nightborne only have Suramar. Blood Elves only have 3 zones - you'll find, that's quite common for a lot of races. Blood Elves only having Eversong, Ghostlands and Quel'Danas (as well as their capital) is actually fine with many Blood Elf fans. You won't see many Blood Elf fans demanding more lands...indeed, we want an updated version to the three lands that are very important to our race.
And what's twisted about it? Why is their such a front with getting Blood Elves out of their lands and onto Outland or something rubbish like Azshara or Bloodmyst? Blood Elves deserve to stay where they are, as do the Draenei, because their lands need updating, for both Horde players (Blood Elves) and Alliance players (Draenei) alike.



Blood Elves only had 1 Outland Camp (not even a Stronghold), which was a Horde location and that was the Farstrider Base in Hellfire. Aside from that, it was all hostile Sunfury bases.
This is why it doesn't make sense for the Blood Elves to go to Outland. Indeed, when many stepped through the Dark Portal, they were shocked and horrified that the Prince had called this "the promised land" when all it was, was a desolate waste-land, broken and fractured. Plus, Hellfire wasn't a Blood Elf zone - it's a zone that held ties to the Mag'har Orc clans and the Orcs in general. I don't see why we always have to cater to what Alliance Elf fans want, when Blood Elf fans know that this zone is just the Barrens, 2.0 and what...? We're expected to be happy with it? Please...Quel'Thalas is the zone that fits best for the Blood Elves since it's a Horde location and the Blood Elves fight, bleed and die for it.
Blood Elves shouldn't be moving anywhere, other than the Farstriders claiming the Ghostlands and seeing it restored. Also, stop going on about "Fel Elves." Night Elf and Blood Elf Demon Hunters, as far as the lore goes, are still neutral Illidari members and are based on Mardum. Hence why we don't see any of them fight in Darkshore or Arathi - they are not part of the Darnassian or Quel'Thalas fighting force.

And the High Elves aren't enough in number to win back anything. More are becoming Void Elves - High Elves, I reckon are staying in Stormwind, since the Silver Covenant seemingly left Dalaran with Jaina, or are members of the Kirin Tor and staying in Dalaran.

Lor'themar is Warchief, in all but name, whilst Thrall and Baine are away and he won't be standing for Alliance High Elves invading his homeland. If they want to return, then they pledge themselves to the Horde and to Lor'themar as their leader.

All of Outland, barring the Netherstorm doesn't work for the Elves in general. Void Elves and Netherstorm fit like a glove - almost like Blood Elves and Quel'Thalas fit like a glove.

Blood elves already went to Outland, this is the premise for them being there. Or have you forgotten. This already happen, this is not a projection of what they should or should not do, it has already happened.

This is the basis for me suggestion outland, I don't think it is invalid. Blizzard haven't updated outland yet either. For all we know, outland could have THRIVING blood elf populations and cities - they already have a presence and assets there, this could have expanded in the 13 years since TBC with all that magic available.

Blood elves aren't the type to give up so easily on anything they have and can hold, but let's see how blizzard explain it. I wouldn't mind if they have Hellfire Peninsular.

[Just1c3]

I like racial agency, and I am completely for that. Racial quests and storylines? Hell yeah.

We exist in a WoW post-Varian Wrynn, where the Horde has a Council now instead of a warchief, so that strikes me as a perfect opportunity to mine some racial storylines by exploring the new dynamics in the Horde and Alliance.

However what I also want, is class agency. I loved Legion, like, Legion got so much class-specific shit, it was like it was tailor-made for me. I miss even simple shit like the level 10 Rogue quest to just go pickpocket a dude. I love shit like that.

So what I'm saying is, in my ideal scenario, I get like, an Orc quest AND a Hunter quest. Or a Blood Elf quest AND a paladin quest. Shit like that.

[Arikara]

If done well? Sure. Absolutely. One of WoW's primary problems these days is that the world doesn't matter; it's all just a stage upon which the writers parade their poorly-written drama queen characters around, like Sylvanas, Tyrande, and all the other characters they've ruined.

A system that puts factions, ideas, and world ahead of individual characters and cheap drama would be a grand improvement. Make factions matter and let the player choose to be able to belong to it, and you've got a great recipe for a more meaningful world.

That being said, any implementation of that that just boils down to fitting into the game's current threadmill grind system, or is just some variation of a racial class order hall or whatever, probably won't work out very well.

[Tanaria]

Blood elves already went to Outland, this is the premise for them being there. Or have you forgotten. This already happen, this is not a projection of what they should or should not do, it has already happened.

This is the basis for me suggestion outland, I don't think it is invalid. Blizzard haven't updated outland yet either. For all we know, outland could have THRIVING blood elf populations and cities - they already have a presence and assets there, this could have expanded in the 13 years since TBC with all that magic available.

Blood elves aren't the type to give up so easily on anything they have and can hold, but let's see how blizzard explain it. I wouldn't mind if they have Hellfire Peninsular.

Blood Elves went to Outland because Kael'thas told them that it was "the promised land." It was not and many returned to Quel'Thalas.

It is invalid because the Blood Elves were sold a lie by their Prince, as was Lor'themar and now, they have absolutely 0 interest in that land. Like, it's not up for debate now. Outland is dead Orcish homeworld, which is falling into the Nether with each passing day. Also, Hellfire was never a main base for the Sunfury's operations. It was Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley...I don't know where your getting this wrong information about Hellfire from, but it's a barren wasteland that has no resources and does nothing for the Blood Elves and no blood elf fan will ever want them in that horrid place...indeed, Blood Elf fans (in the main) want to see updates for those three lands that are important to Blood Elves. I can safely say, 99% of us don't want Outland. It has nothing for our favorite race..."Oh but the Warlocks!!" Yeah Ravenmoon...that 'hardly used' sector of blood elf society? Nah, Blizzard should develop the Mages since Blood Elf Mages hold more water with Fire and Blood Magical practices. Hell - Felo'melorn was a key weapon for Fire Mages and brought "Phoenix Flames"...Blood Elves were at the forefront when it came to that whole story arc.

And your right about Blood Elves not being the type to give up on anything they can hold - hence why they put Quel'Thalas first, above all else. It's laughable if you think they will choose the Barrens 2.0 over Quel'Thalas, when the latter has everything they want.

They have 1 small asset with the Scryers in Shattrath. It's nothing by comparison of Quel'Thalas and the Sunwell. Outland is nothing more than a dead world and the best hope we can have for it, is further Draenei and Orc developments. Blood Elves have already had their time there and now, it's just a small portion of Mages and Priests, who remain in Shattrath. Their is nothing else for them - nothing that beats Silvermoon, Quel'Thalas and the Sunwell. They don't need Outland.

The Sunfury went to Outland to source other forms to sate their magical addiction. The Sunwell has returned and they have nothing on Outland that interests them.

Again, I think your mixing up Sunfury TBC lore and current Quel'Thalas Blood Elf lore.

[thesmall001]

@ravenmoon @draugril @Beloren



Y'all baited me into getting back on this project even though I have major work deadlines to stay on top of 24/7 atm. Curse you all.

Some notes: Forsaken Champions have already been re-worked in my latest version to parallel the Gnome Defector/Rebel archetype. This ensures Will of the Forsaken accurately parallels Escape Artist. My gut instinct was that Forsaken should have a Human parallel (and they still could, as Bandit has Every Man for Himself) but changing Champions to Dark Loyalists felt like a better reflection of a larger group of Forsaken identities.

Blood Elves should be Lightswayed (Name is bad, I know, feel free to provide better ones that don't use the word "touched") to better parallel their Void Elf counter-parts but I really wanted to work some Fel connection in there as it should reflect the more important commonality between NB/BE cultures (that of falling to Fel corruption and being redeemed). Honestly, I wanted to keep Cosmology/Magic and class-associations out of the archetypes as much as possible, but this is hard for some cultures, which have been, are, or will be defined by their cosmological alignments.

[Beloren]

@ravenmoon @draugril @Beloren



Y'all baited me into getting back on this project even though I have major work deadlines to stay on top of 24/7 atm. Curse you all.

Some notes: Forsaken Champions have already been re-worked in my latest version to parallel the Gnome Defector/Rebel archetype. This ensures Will of the Forsaken accurately parallels Escape Artist. My gut instinct was that Forsaken should have a Human parallel (and they still could, as Bandit has Every Man for Himself) but changing Champions to Dark Loyalists felt like a better reflection of a larger group of Forsaken identities.

Blood Elves should be Lightswayed (Name is bad, I know, feel free to provide better ones that don't use the word "touched") to better parallel their Void Elf counter-parts but I really wanted to work some Fel connection in there as it should reflect the more important commonality between NB/BE cultures (that of falling to Fel corruption and being redeemed). Honestly, I wanted to keep Cosmology/Magic and class-associations out of the archetypes as much as possible, but this is hard for some cultures, which have been, are, or will be defined by their cosmological alignments.

We love you all the same and appreciate you, despite the curses. We'll just remove those, you get a wrist slap for it.

Look forward to the finished article.

[Procrustes]

While class halls and covenants are thematically cool to me, I don't think the same would work for such groups based on race. Maybe because I'm inadvertently drawing parallels to real life and then it just sounds wrong.

We have a "kind of" racial quest lines in the form of heritage armor questlines, and I feel like that's a nice touch for the people who want to roleplay. Expanding it to some kind of racial teams fighting each other, or having exclusive quest lines just sounds weird. Even for gameplay reasons it feels weird, because personally, as a human warrior, I feel like I have much more in common with a night elf warrior or even an orc warrior, than with a human mage (for example). I just don't see race as something to bond over with other people nor anything that automatically makes me feel a connection to somebody.

Well, roleplaying in a Medieval fantasy war game, will have horses, dragons, swords and racism.

You afraid that people will be more racists in real life, because of a game?

What is exactly is race agency by the way?

[Beloren]

What is exactly is race agency by the way?

Choices for races that have an affect in the game. In otherwords, races become relevant again and have story/quest development

Well, roleplaying in a Medieval fantasy war game, will have horses, dragons, swords and racism.

You afraid that people will be more racists in real life, because of a game?

Are people actually afraid that racial relevance and distinctiveness would make people in real more racist? how do they reach this conclusion

[Rockefellah]

One of my biggest issue with Shadowlands is how many of my character don't really fit into any of the Covenants because of who and what they are.

Also is there just one Maw Walker? Because everytime it comes up the NPCs act like theyre is just a singular Maw Walker and the other players around me don't exist.

Bit like how in Legion you were THE class-leader (which wasn't perfect either) but atleast the existence of other class leaders was acknowledged.

Yes there is only one Maw Walker (your character) just as like in WOD you were the Garrison Commander, or in Legion you were the Class Hall Leader. Any other person that walks around is story wise the same as an NPC, and in the case of Shadowlands there are much less NPCs (only a handful of Death Knights and the faction heroes) that were transported to the Shadowlands.

[Wolfrick]

I agree with your point in the past we focus most of our attention at the main faction identity.

It would be very interesting to Explore more and dig deep into the Lore and history of each Core race of the Horde and Alliance.

So, if you ask me

Blizzard should implement a system like the Covenants with each Core Main Faction Race... so that you can make what ever Horde race... but you can work towards identifing with the race you feel more close to...

Examples:

As a Horde Orc, you can Choose to be more Aligned with The Orcs.... The Taurens... The Forsaken... The Darkspear Trolls or the Blood elves.

As an Alliance Human, you can choose to be more Aligned with The Humans... The Dwarfs... the Night elves The Gnomes or the Draenai.

The most important thing...
Is that this system should be an Ever green content system... that has nothing to do with the main Core Lore of what ever expansion...
This way we can always build uppon this system and in the future add more Races who we can be Aligned to as a member of each Faction... if you ask me this will even boost the Faction Identity and make us feel even more connected to our Factions.

And ofc... comblined with this there would be Tabards... banners.... and other rewords that you would get for being more Loyal to that Race with in your faction.

Doing this would breath new life to each Faction...
Since if you think about it... with all the different Races within a faction... everyone cant... think and feel the same on every topic... since the Culture of the different races in some cases... are like 100% different then another race with in the same Faction.

[Beloren]

I agree with your point in the past we focus most of our attention at the main faction identity.

It would be very interesting to Explore more and dig deep into the Lore and history of each Core race of the Horde and Alliance.

It has to be this, it has to be the core races, every allied race is tied to the core races. Void elves are tied to blood elves, @thesmall001 , they are part of that culture and people, even though they are on the alliance, same with Nightborne, they are tied to the night elven peoples and their culture - they are the kaldorei empire culture first and foremost no matter how tight they are with the blood elves - exploring them is part of the kaldorei story - it would be a caveat, because the majority of the high elf culture is on the horde, void elves would join blood elves in exploring that, and Nightborne would join night elves in exploring their race too.

I think a lot of void elf fans are huge high elf fans anyway, so would appreciate the insight to the race, and despite being on opposite sides we must not forget who they are based on, it would suck for void elves to explore humanity. Same with the Nightborne, you want to learn more about hte kaldorei past, and the pre-sundering era of the night elves has everything, it has the advanced civilization, the druidic lifestyle and it has the priesthood - Suramar is very heavily nigh telf history, it would probably annoy fans if this was lal ignored to tell a blood elf story instead.

Every allied race is tied to a core race, except probably Vulpera, but so little is made or known of their past I wouldn't be surprised if it ties to goblins in some way.

So you are effectively doing 12 races instead of 22, And every core race will have involvement of their allied race explored and furthered. It may force them to further develop how the void elves and blood elves interact - we know void elves are with high elves and they want blood elves back. Also it will help us contiue the Nightborne story and their Moonguard, Val'sharah friendships, also explore the familial connections that must exist with the Darnassians and how they might work going forward being on opposite factions.

Void elves don't hate blood elves, but blood elves hate void elves viewing them as traitors. Nightborne don't hate night elves, but night elves, well Darnassians have reason to resent Nightborne, yet without a doubt some nightborne would be heavily kaldorei favoured whether love blood leves a lot or not. This will exlpore that.

So, if you ask me

Blizzard should implement a system like the Covenants with each Core Main Faction Race... so that you can make what ever Horde race... but you can work towards identifying with the race you feel more close to...

Examples:

As a Horde Orc, you can Choose to be more Aligned with The Orcs.... The Taurens... The Forsaken... The Darkspear Trolls or the Blood elves.

As an Alliance Human, you can choose to be more Aligned with The Humans... The Dwarfs... the Night elves The Gnomes or the Draenai.

I like the sound of this. But I think you hsoudl first at least have to do the basics of your character's race, before you jump into aligning with another character? sort of like how you have to do a certain minimum with covenants before you choose. In the covenant system you had some experience of all 4, but in the racial one it would be all your race, then you can chooose another to then adavance with..

Either way, I like this.

The most important thing...
Is that this system should be an Ever green content system... that has nothing to do with the main Core Lore of what ever expansion...
This way we can always build uppon this system and in the future add more Races who we can be Aligned to as a member of each Faction... if you ask me this will even boost the Faction Identity and make us feel even more connected to our Factions.

And ofc... comblined with this there would be Tabards... banners.... and other rewords that you would get for being more Loyal to that Race with in your faction.

Doing this would breath new life to each Faction...
Since if you think about it... with all the different Races within a faction... everyone cant... think and feel the same on every topic... since the Culture of the different races in some cases... are like 100% different then another race with in the same Faction.

Yes, I think this is important too, this has to have a system that can operate outside the main expansions system, such that each new expansion can offer things that relate tot his, but this keeps going. Power resets but a lot of racial flavour, even Ravenmoon and Mace's city idea would remain unchanged because they are not tied to power, they don't reset. All the arts that are tied to power will reset, but the new expansion can always have something that ties into your race and it's capital city that you can build on, while never losing how much lore, racial flavoured extras even city development you make.

This could actually work out as the missing thing wow has needed, something that is interesting and attractive enough to encourage long term subscription and reward continuously having played because it isn't reset like your character's power but you can always build on it. Because it isn't power related, it can be

[Soon-TM]

Actually, Blood Elves should not have anything to do with the Netherstorm on Outland. That piece of content should, 100% go to Void Elf players.

Actually Netherstorm has little to do with void shenanigans of any kind, but rather with raw magic overall. It is also heavily linked to belfs, and especially Kael, as it can be seen with half of the quests there and the entire TK, as well as two out of the three associated dungeons.

Netherstorm is a zone in northeastern Outland consisting of several large land fragments and countless smaller shards of rock all floating in the Twisting Nether. The region is locked in a constant magical storm. The Netherstorm is in a constant state of deterioration -- the magical storm that is the zone's namesake is slowly tearing apart the fabric of reality bridging the gap between the physical world and the Twisting Nether. Magical lightning arcs across the skies within a thick haze of violet cloud and bands of pure magical energy wrap their way across the sky.

If anything, velfs could use a new zone in e.g. AU Draenor. I remember some leaked quest text (was it from wowhead? Not sure tho...) about Farahlon quests back in WoD, which mentioned a band of Thalassian elves who were dwelling somewhere in the zone to study a heavily void-tainted region. Which also makes sense in the great scheme of things, since in BC there were almost no references to the Void, other than M'uru and maybe a couple of dungeon bosses. WoD, on the other hand, had much more clearly void-related stuff, such as the Dark Star and the Shadowmoon clan.

[Tanaria]

Actually Netherstorm has little to do with void shenanigans of any kind, but rather with raw magic overall. It is also heavily linked to belfs, and especially Kael, as it can be seen with half of the quests there and the entire TK, as well as two out of the three associated dungeons.

Tempest Keep was more associated with the Sunfury Blood Elves. Yes, Silvermoon and the Horde forces were involved in pushing them back and "defeating" Kael'thas, but if we look into it...especially where High Astromancers Solarian was and her group of Void-studying Apprentices, then a case can be made that if Blizzard decide to give the Void Elves more of a "Capital" or "Citadel", then they can't go far wrong with Tempest Keep. (Or teleporting Tempest Keep to Telgrous Rift...perhaps Umbric gives us some insight into what Solarian was actually doing.) Silvermoon Blood Elves don't need, nor would they actually want, Tempest Keep. You've got to remember, the time when Tempest Keep was a "home" for the Blood Elves, it was when they were still without the Sunwell, and were searching for ways to sate their magical addiction. Now Void Elves aren't like that - but the "Void" angle that was extremely present within the Keep, it does open up doors for the Ren'dorei to have an extra floating Citadel of their own, which is just for Alliance Thalassian Elves.

Also, as mentioned - the Horde were the ones who, in the lore - took down Kael'thas in Tempest Keep. We could expand Umbric's lore and he could have been one of the "Horde forces" at the time, who ventured in and saw what Kael'Thas, Solarian and the others were doing.