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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    In the case of a 4th Spec DR would likely just be a reskin of pre legion survival something they could have absently have done in legion, They didn't care enough to.
    Uhm no.

    But yes to "they didn't care enough*.
    Obviously they didn't.

    There is never going to be a 4th spec for any class that doesn't have it already, as shown with how Survival turned into melee instead of a 4th spec.
    Why? Because they would've had to design another artifact and storyline.

    If it's a thing, it's going to be a new class on top of a new expansion.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-06-12 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #282
    Sub Rogue should have become the dark ranger spec in legion, after they took away Survival and made it melee. Stealth Archer using dark magic would have been sweet.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    In the case of a 4th Spec DR would likely just be a reskin of pre legion survival something they could have absently have done in legion, They didn't care enough to.
    The only part of the old RSV that even somewhat adheres to the Dark Ranger-fantasy, when it comes to abilities, was Black Arrow. And this ability while being a part of WoW, along with essentially every single other ability the hunter class have utilized, does in no way speak to a fantasy that involves us as hunters channeling/infusing magic directly into arrows/bullets, or even the weapons.

    In fact, the original designer Kevin Jordan specifically mentioned in one of his streams that they did NOT want/intend for the hunter class to be a spellcaster with a bow/gun who shoots magical fire, frost, etc.

    As for our augmented shots, the only thing that they actually point towards, is the idea that we're simply firing arrows/bullets that have been laced with animal venom, has an explosive component, or have been infused with magic of some form on a prior occasion(not mid-combat). Heck, even what seems to be our latest addition; Wailing Arrow, which comes from equipping and using the bow from the Sylvanas-encounter, does not say that we gain any form of magic on our own, but rather hints at how the magic comes from somewhere else. And that source, due to how they have designed the ability to work, is the bow itself(the bow contains the actual magic).

    On top of this, they even removed Mana as a resource for the class going into Cataclysm, they never actually intended for this class to have it as such, but their initial approach was that of Focus(they just could not get it to a state where it worked well enough so they had to do some quick re-thinking last minute), something they talked about at Blizzcon in 2005. If anything, if they actually intended for us to be a magic user(class), they would most likely have stuck with Mana and designed our abilities and effects to work better with it.

    This last part also plays a big role towards why the Dark Ranger-fantasy is not suited for the hunter class. Because, again, it was never intended for us to be a magic user.

  4. #284
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    The only part of the old RSV that even somewhat adheres to the Dark Ranger-fantasy, when it comes to abilities, was Black Arrow. And this ability while being a part of WoW, along with essentially every single other ability the hunter class have utilized, does in no way speak to a fantasy that involves us as hunters channeling/infusing magic directly into arrows/bullets, or even the weapons.
    Dark ranger's have like five ability's when it comes to wow and most of them are reskins of hunter ability's or ability's hunter have had.

    All the prattle about how they don't mana or how some dev said they weren't suppose to use magic back in 2005 is nice and all but also Irrelevant.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Dark ranger's have like five ability's when it comes to wow and most of them are reskins of hunter ability's or ability's hunter have had.

    All the prattle about how they don't mana or how some dev said they weren't suppose to use magic back in 2005 is nice and all but also Irrelevant.
    NPC Demon Hunters had like 1 ability before they became playable.
    The Demonhunter BOSS in SSC had like 1 ability, a warrior ability aside from meta.
    What kind of argument is that?
    Illidan doesn't have any relevant DH abilities either.

    The DR class does *not exist* yet.


    Hunter NPCs in WoW have like 5 abilities too.
    Most of them use "Barrage" and "Shoot"
    Yet the actual class has like 40.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-06-13 at 07:54 AM.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    All the prattle about how they don't mana or how some dev said they weren't suppose to use magic back in 2005 is nice and all but also Irrelevant.
    How is this irrelevant? You literally have the original class designer telling us that they did not intend for hunters to be about channeling magic.

    You also have this backed up on the Blizzcon 2005 panel where they say that Mana as a resource was not what they intended for us but they always wanted hunters to use Focus. And thus by extension, how Mana and spell power as a game mechanic came out of practical necessity rather than thematic accuracy/adherence to fantasy.

    As for Dark Ranger NPCs, the abilities actually used by them in-game are all over the place. If you look at Nathanos himself, he has like 20+ different NPC models, all who use abilities use different ones/variations. The same goes for the unnamed NPCs.

  7. #287
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    How is this irrelevant? You literally have the original class designer telling us that they did not intend for hunters to be about channeling magic.

    You also have this backed up on the Blizzcon 2005 panel where they say that Mana as a resource was not what they intended for us but they always wanted hunters to use Focus. And thus by extension, how Mana and spell power as a game mechanic came out of practical necessity rather than thematic accuracy/adherence to fantasy.

    As for Dark Ranger NPCs, the abilities actually used by them in-game are all over the place. If you look at Nathanos himself, he has like 20+ different NPC models, all who use abilities use different ones/variations. The same goes for the unnamed NPCs.
    It’s irrelevant because we’re not in 2005 any more and we have a bunch of ability’s of hunters using magic rather that be throwing hawks raising skeletons using wind magic in legion ect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    NPC Demon Hunters had like 1 ability before they became playable.
    The Demonhunter BOSS in SSC had like 1 ability, a warrior ability aside from meta.
    What kind of argument is that?
    Illidan doesn't have any relevant DH abilities either.

    The DR class does *not exist* yet.


    Hunter NPCs in WoW have like 5 abilities too.
    Most of them use "Barrage" and "Shoot"
    Yet the actual class has like 40.
    It’s not about the number of ability’s it’s about the fantasy of those ability’s and pretty much all of them fall into hunter reskins or ability’s hunters have had. Dark rangers have pretty much nothing that wouldn’t fit into a reskin of pre legion survival being a 4th hunter spec.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    It’s not about the number of ability’s it’s about the fantasy of those ability’s and pretty much all of them fall into hunter reskins or ability’s hunters have had. Dark rangers have pretty much nothing that wouldn’t fit into a reskin of pre legion survival being a 4th hunter spec.
    Just because your fantasy is super limited doesn't mean that's the way it is...

    It's pointless to pursue that way of thinking but maybe Blizzard didn't put it in as a 4th spec because it's not as easy and fitting as you think.
    That statement holds as much meaning as yours... it's just an opinion man.

    Can't express enough how idiotic it is to assume you'd (or anyone, including me) has a clear definition of something that doesn't exist yet...or can say anything about their "fantasy" or how their abilities would look like or work.


    It's just dumb.
    Your definition of a DR is different from those that seek it as a class, it's a super biased opinion and I don't get why people have a hard time figuring that out.
    Some people here think of DR as the Banshee Queen, Shadow Tendrils, screams, mind-altering effects, terror etc.
    You think it's basically a hunter.

    2 sides that will never agree on anything.
    DR in form of a Banshee would never fit in a 4th hunter spec.
    DR in form of a Hunter using some gimmicky shadow themed arrows might.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-06-13 at 05:43 PM.

  9. #289
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Your definition of a DR is different from those that seek it as a class, it's a super biased opinion
    I get that you’ve likely been saving up your whole speech for some one who wants it to be a spec. But I don’t care if it’s a spec or a class.

    All I’m pushing against is that it couldn’t be a 4th spec or that it has no overlap theme wise other then black arrow when that’s not really the case when it comes to a 4th which would likely a reskined survival.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Necromancy is death magic. Shadow magic comes from the Void. I'm not moving shit. There is no necrotic or death damage in WoW and it's just called shadow damage. But if you knew lore I wouldn't have to explain this.

    Tinker is just engineer so....no. tinkers likely aren't happening either.
    I think the closet you could get to Necrotic is Plague, which is just Nature + Shadow. DKs often use it too
    I don't play WoW anymore smh.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    It’s irrelevant because we’re not in 2005 any more and we have a bunch of ability’s of hunters using magic rather that be throwing hawks raising skeletons using wind magic in legion ect.
    I can agree on the ability Aspect of the Eagle being out of place, to say the least. It doesn't fit any part of the established hunter fantasy, apart from being themed around animals.

    "Raising Skeletons" - Not something we've been able to do as hunters in WoW, ever. At least not as a part of our class design in itself.

    As for "Wind Magic", like with the Wailing Arrow-ability coming in 9.1, this Wind Magic in Legion was tied to our artifact weapon, not us as hunters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    It’s not about the number of ability’s it’s about the fantasy of those ability’s and pretty much all of them fall into hunter reskins or ability’s hunters have had. Dark rangers have pretty much nothing that wouldn’t fit into a reskin of pre legion survival being a 4th hunter spec.
    • Smoke Bomb - Casts a smoke bomb, stunning nearby enemies for 3 sec.
    • Commander's Strike - Strikes down the target, inflicting Physical damage.
    • Hooked Net — Inflicts Physical damage and immobilizes the target for 3 sec.
    • Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies.
    • Knockback — Knocks away all targets in front of the caster.
    • Spectral Charge — The caster summons forth a line of spectral horses to charge across the battlefield. Any players caught in their path suffer 20 Shadow damage.

    Some examples of abilities used by one or several Dark Ranger NPCs in-game, both recent ones along with NPCs from further back. None of which would really reflect what was RSV in the past. Not even if you'd reskin some of the abilities that were part of that spec. Also, how does the "reskinning" make sense? It was all the same as RSV, but only if you redesign the abilities, or add completely new ones? So...not like the old RSV then...

    Not to mention when talking fantasy and lore, everything points to how they are fallen rangers that have been raised into undeath. So, how does it make sense then for living Hunters, especially Alliance ones, to embrace what is the Dark Ranger-"lifestyle"? Does the whole being undead part not matter?

    So how come they can't just let the living embrace what it means to be Death Knights? They're all undead, even Alliance DKs. But that shouldn't matter now should it? There ARE indeed some living who utilizes magic similar or even partially the same as DKs do, and still, they decided to make DKs their own class.

    So why does this not apply to Dark Rangers as well?

  12. #292
    La la la la~ LemonDemonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Honestly I wish they’d just go heavy into the race themes with a toggle like glyphs have Zandalari priest/paladins have spells effects that match up with what we see talanji do, void elfs get void spell effects for disc and holy, light forged get holy effects for shadow and so on and so on. Dark rangers could even be for all three hunter specs for undead and night elfs.

    Really show case that while we’re playing the same specs they are different in the lore.
    How about a 'Death magic' for Zandalari who worship Bwonsamdi, that turns their spells a pale blue/teal color?
    I don't play WoW anymore smh.

  13. #293
    Legendary! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Aren't Dark Rangers just hunters who use shadow magic as a baseline for their attacks?

  14. #294
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post

    "Raising Skeletons" - Not something we've been able to do as hunters in WoW, ever. At least not as a part of our class design in itself.

    As for "Wind Magic", like with the Wailing Arrow-ability coming in 9.1, this Wind Magic in Legion was tied to our artifact weapon, not us as hunters.
    hunter's had black arrow in legion as a talent which did damage and raised a skeletal minion to attack enemy's

    and why are we pretending that artifacts aren't directly tied to the class? you wouldn't do this with any other class many if not most of got there Artifact traits as core parts of there kit.




    LIST][*]Smoke Bomb - Casts a smoke bomb, stunning nearby enemies for 3 sec.[*]Commander's Strike - Strikes down the target, inflicting Physical damage.[*]Hooked Net — Inflicts Physical damage and immobilizes the target for 3 sec.[*]Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies.[*]Knockback — Knocks away all targets in front of the caster.[*]Spectral Charge — The caster summons forth a line of spectral horses to charge across the battlefield. Any players caught in their path suffer 20 Shadow damage.[/LIST]
    Commander's strike is a reskinned Raptor strike.
    hooked net is a reskinned net throw.
    knockback is a reskinned Bursting shot.
    Spectral charge is a reskinned Stampede.

    So of all the skills you listed all but 2 hunters have had with just a different skin, so as i said pretty much all fall into hunter skins.

    Some examples of abilities used by one or several Dark Ranger NPCs in-game, both recent ones along with NPCs from further back. None of which would really reflect what was RSV in the past. Not even if you'd reskin some of the abilities that were part of that spec. Also, how does the "reskinning" make sense? It was all the same as RSV, but only if you redesign the abilities, or add completely new ones? So...not like the old RSV then...
    almost all of the ability's you linked are utility Almost all of them are reskinned hunter utility as far as the Rotation goes dark ranger as a 4th spec would be likely to match old SV as a dot based spec as it fits DK perfectly and there is a demand for one. as to adding new ability's that happened from classic-mop but you'd never claim that specs became unlike them self's because of it.

    Not to mention when talking fantasy and lore, everything points to how they are fallen rangers that have been raised into undeath. So, how does it make sense then for living Hunters, especially Alliance ones, to embrace what is the Dark Ranger-"lifestyle"? Does the whole being undead part not matter?
    Blizzard doesn't care about lore/fantasy when it comes to specs as noted by voidelf holy priest and shadow light forged. If they were to change how those and a few other specs stood out the sure id agree that Fantasy and lore would be a problem for a 4th spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    How about a 'Death magic' for Zandalari who worship Bwonsamdi, that turns their spells a pale blue/teal color?
    That would actually be prefect for shadow/disc, make Holy Razon shadow Bwonsamdi then disc a bit of both.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    hunter's had black arrow in legion as a talent which did damage and raised a skeletal minion to attack enemy's
    No it didn't. It summoned an undead boar, and it also wasn't designed around reanimating the corpse of the fallen enemy(that was currently affected with Black Arrow). And also, they added that function for the sake of practicality for MM hunters as, during Legion, if they wanted to go with Lone Wolf they had to pick it as a talent, and thus this allowed MM hunters to more easily do solo content without needing to respec every time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    and why are we pretending that artifacts aren't directly tied to the class? you wouldn't do this with any other class many if not most of got there Artifact traits as core parts of there kit.
    I never said that the weapons weren't tied to the class. I said that the magic contained within those weapons, the magic used for the abilities in question, came from the weapons, not us as hunters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Commander's strike is a reskinned Raptor strike.
    hooked net is a reskinned net throw.
    knockback is a reskinned Bursting shot.
    Spectral charge is a reskinned Stampede.

    So of all the skills you listed all but 2 hunters have had with just a different skin, so as i said pretty much all fall into hunter skins.

    almost all of the ability's you linked are utility Almost all of them are reskinned hunter utility as far as the Rotation goes dark ranger as a 4th spec would be likely to match old SV as a dot based spec as it fits DK perfectly and there is a demand for one. as to adding new ability's that happened from classic-mop but you'd never claim that specs became unlike them self's because of it.
    I thought you said RSV, not Hunter in general...

    And based on this argument of yours, how come Affliction(Lock) and Shadow(Priest) are separate specs? Or Balance(Druid)? Some abilities deal direct/upfront damage and some are DoTs. They're just reskins aren't they? Best to merge them all...


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Blizzard doesn't care about lore/fantasy when it comes to specs as noted by voidelf holy priest and shadow light forged. If they were to change how those and a few other specs stood out the sure id agree that Fantasy and lore would be a problem for a 4th spec.
    I'm not saying that they always do it the right way according to Lore/Fantasy. I'm only pointing out that there's a case here of: maybe they shouldn't do it the way you're proposing as it wouldn't be the proper way to implement Dark Rangers as a playable option into this game.

    They can do whatever they want really. It's more a question of whether they should, or not.

  16. #296
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    No it didn't. It summoned an undead boar, and it also wasn't designed around reanimating the corpse of the fallen enemy(that was currently affected with Black Arrow). And also, they added that function for the sake of practicality for MM hunters as, during Legion, if they wanted to go with Lone Wolf they had to pick it as a talent, and thus this allowed MM hunters to more easily do solo content without needing to respec every time.
    Fires a Black Arrow at the target, dealing (85.176% of Attack power) Shadow damage over 8 sec and summoning a Dark Minion to taunt it for the duration.

    When you kill an enemy, the remaining cooldown on Black Arrow will reset.

    No where did I say any thing about reanimating corpses just Raising A skeleton and that's what it was.





    I never said that the weapons weren't tied to the class. I said that the magic contained within those weapons, the magic used for the abilities in question, came from the weapons, not us as hunters
    and almost every other class got the ability's there weapons had you wouldn't say Dk's cant raise undead or that Pally's could only do a holy wake because of ashbringer why would we single out hunters as being the only class not tied to there artifact.




    I thought you said RSV, not Hunter in general...
    Then your not reading my post.
    [petty much all of them fall into hunter reskins or ability’s hunters have had.


    And based on this argument of yours, how come Affliction(Lock) and Shadow(Priest) are separate specs? Or Balance(Druid)? Some abilities deal direct/upfront damage and some are DoTs. They're just reskins aren't they? Best to merge them all...
    If they weren't already in the game or were in the game and then taken out then they could just be made into the same spec.




    I'm not saying that they always do it the right way according to Lore/Fantasy. I'm only pointing out that there's a case here of: maybe they shouldn't do it the way you're proposing as it wouldn't be the proper way to implement Dark Rangers as a playable option into this game.

    They can do whatever they want really. It's more a question of whether they should, or not.
    And I'm saying based on there track record there is no reason for them to go about it a comply different way when they don't actually care about lore/fantasy when it comes to specs. If there not gonna hold them self's to the rules for any other case why should/would they do it for this one Special case?
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-06-13 at 07:56 PM.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    Aren't Dark Rangers just hunters who use shadow magic as a baseline for their attacks?
    theyre pretty much like DKs but they use bows.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post

    No where did I say any thing about reanimating corpses just Raising A skeleton and that's what it was.
    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=94072/dark-minion#models

    They changed it to what you showed there later on. Either way...like I said above, they did not make this change to the ability because of reasons of thematic accuracy towards the class, but rather because of practical reasons/the mechanical application towards the design of MM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    and almost every other class got the ability's there weapons had you wouldn't say Dk's cant raise undead or that Pally's could only do a holy wake because of ashbringer why would we single out hunters as being the only class not tied to there artifact.
    Again, you're missing the point.

    I'm saying that the magic, such as the wind magic hunters had access to in Legion, wasn't there because we as hunters "had it in us", but we had access to it because we were wielding the weapon that contained said magic. Once the weapon lost it's power, so did we lose access to the magic and the use of said ability/-ies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Then your not reading my post.
    Dark rangers have pretty much nothing that wouldn’t fit into a reskin of pre legion survival being a 4th hunter spec.
    Yes I do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    If they weren't already in the game or were in the game and then taken out then they could just be made into the same spec.
    What kind of argument is this? Because those specs I mentioned are currently in the game, it makes sense that their individual abilities are mechanically similar, just with different skins/aesthetics? But seeing as Dark Rangers aren't already in the game as a playable class, it wouldn't...?

    That's some twisted logic right there...


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    And I'm saying based on there track record there is no reason for them to go about it a comply different way when they don't actually care about lore/fantasy when it comes to specs. If there not gonna hold them self's to the rules for any other case why should/would they do it for this one Special case?
    It's not completely different.

    Sometimes they do adhere to fantasy and lore, sometimes they don't. In the cases where they don't, it's usually because of player agency and accessibility. But that doesn't mean that we should accept it as a default, when it clearly isn't.

    And from what you've said so far, it sounds as if you actually think that Dark Rangers are fit to become their own class, rather than serving as part of another one. But you argue against it because they(devs) don't always make choices that are thematically correct.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2021-06-13 at 10:01 PM.

  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Dark ranger's have like five ability's when it comes to wow and most of them are reskins of hunter ability's or ability's hunter have had.

    All the prattle about how they don't mana or how some dev said they weren't suppose to use magic back in 2005 is nice and all but also Irrelevant.
    Its not realy a reason as others have said. Monk and demon hunters had less. You know that new abillities can be created right?

    It boils down to opinions on why you dont like it or why you like it. No offence, but not realy worth discussing that. Any archtype has as much chance. Even spellbreakers or wardens. Its a matter of when blizz feels like it.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-06-14 at 05:20 PM.

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