An AU Azeroth without the Orcs...

[Beloren]

So, anyone ever thought of what AU Azeroth would be like? the orcs never made it to Azeroth, how do you think things would have turned out?

[cuafpr]

Legion would have taken over the first time then game over.....

[OokOok]

Legion would have taken over the first time then game over.....

What....

The orcs weren't even in azeroth the first time the legion invaded, you know...that time where the maelstrom ate itself and the world sundered....the naga were created....Sargeras lost his physical form..... yeah... that was the first time

the SECOND invasion was with the orcs through the dark portal and that wasn't even the "legion" invading it was just the orcs.

THE THIRD invasion was when the legion came, corrupted hellscream and the rest killed cenarius...bla bla. So to say the legion would of won without the orcs....makes 0 sense considering the first time they lost without the orcs and the second time they didn't even go with the orcs. But hey, you do you booboo

[enigma77]

Total Legion victory. Without the Horde present at the battle of Mt. Hyjal Archimonde would have succeeded in draining the World Tree, decimating the mortal resistance and then either succeeding in usurping Sargeras (unlikely) or more likely being forced to summon him only for Sargeras then to corrupt the World Soul, turning Azeroth into Argus 2 and all native life dying off.

[draugril]

What....

The orcs weren't even in azeroth the first time the legion invaded, you know...that time where the maelstrom ate itself and the world sundered....the naga were created....Sargeras lost his physical form..... yeah... that was the first time

the SECOND invasion was with the orcs through the dark portal and that wasn't even the "legion" invading it was just the orcs.

THE THIRD invasion was when the legion came, corrupted hellscream and the rest killed cenarius...bla bla. So to say the legion would of won without the orcs....makes 0 sense considering the first time they lost without the orcs and the second time they didn't even go with the orcs. But hey, you do you booboo

No Broxigar. No Thrall. Both were instrumental in stopping the Legion.

[cuafpr]

What....

The orcs weren't even in azeroth the first time the legion invaded, you know...that time where the maelstrom ate itself and the world sundered....the naga were created....Sargeras lost his physical form..... yeah... that was the first time

the SECOND invasion was with the orcs through the dark portal and that wasn't even the "legion" invading it was just the orcs.

THE THIRD invasion was when the legion came, corrupted hellscream and the rest killed cenarius...bla bla. So to say the legion would of won without the orcs....makes 0 sense considering the first time they lost without the orcs and the second time they didn't even go with the orcs. But hey, you do you booboo

I didn't really think about the war of the ancients was just thinking of the RTS games. though technically one orc was there and wounder Sarg, broxigar i think it was. But I believe it's even in-game isn't that Azeroth would have fallen without the aid of the orcs, some wraithon speech/quest diaglog?

[Moozart]

So, anyone ever thought of what AU Azeroth would be like? the orcs never made it to Azeroth, how do you think things would have turned out?

Had there been no orc's Brox and Rhonin would had never gone back in time. With the 2 of them not there it would had been a COMPLETLY different turn of event as Rhonin already knew what needed to be done as it was his history. People who never read the books have no clue how much effect He and Rhonin had during WOTA.

[Palapop]

Total Legion victory. Without the Horde present at the battle of Mt. Hyjal Archimonde would have succeeded in draining the World Tree, decimating the mortal resistance and then either succeeding in usurping Sargeras (unlikely) or more likely being forced to summon him only for Sargeras then to corrupt the World Soul, turning Azeroth into Argus 2 and all native life dying off.

Erm... without the orcs, Legion wouldn't even manage to enter Azeroth for the 3rd time.

Remember who killed Cenarius? And how? Did you play WC 3?

[Hellspawn]

Had there been no orc's Brox and Rhonin would had never gone back in time. With the 2 of them not there it would had been a COMPLETLY different turn of event as Rhonin already knew what needed to be done as it was his history. People who never read the books have no clue how much effect He and Rhonin had during WOTA.

these books created multiple time paradoxes into sure how much of it is retconned but all of it should be retconned imho, its some major stupid stuff.

[StationaryHawk]

I wouldn't count on Cenarius making up for the Horde's absence at Hyjal. However, it's possible Medivh would have had more luck rallying the Alliance (or, in the case it never formed, the human nations in general) if Lothar still lived and Khadgar was still present.

What....

The orcs weren't even in azeroth the first time the legion invaded, you know...that time where the maelstrom ate itself and the world sundered....the naga were created....Sargeras lost his physical form..... yeah... that was the first time

the SECOND invasion was with the orcs through the dark portal and that wasn't even the "legion" invading it was just the orcs.

THE THIRD invasion was when the legion came, corrupted hellscream and the rest killed cenarius...bla bla. So to say the legion would of won without the orcs....makes 0 sense considering the first time they lost without the orcs and the second time they didn't even go with the orcs. But hey, you do you booboo

The Third War is considered the Legion's second invasion of Azeroth, not third.

[Beloren]

Legion would have taken over the first time then game over.....

Technically, without the orcs, the Legion would not have been able to get to Azeroth, Medivh would likely have been caught. The orcs were the facilitators of both subsequent legion attacks , although this made it possible for Illidan to orchestrate their final defeat... question is, would he have been able to pull it off without the orcs triggering the attack?

If we look at the actual elements needed to defeat the Legion - they needed the Sargerite keystone, he would have needed to get to Argus with an army - his demon hunters +army of the light.

Orcs are impressive warriors, it's why the Legion wanted to recruit and empower them to demolish the draenei and soften Azeroth so the night elves would have their hands full, except the orcs met humans, and ultimately were foiled.

If they hadn't touched down, it is possible the legion attack would still be years away.

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Had there been no orc's Brox and Rhonin would had never gone back in time. With the 2 of them not there it would had been a COMPLETLY different turn of event as Rhonin already knew what needed to be done as it was his history. People who never read the books have no clue how much effect He and Rhonin had during WOTA.

It isn't Brox and Rhonin that saved Azeroth.. the night elves did that all by themselves, the infinite dragonflight then tried to disrupt the timeline, which is why Rhonin and co were sent back. I think they were just created as an excuse to have a human and orc be part of the story, otherwise they didn't feel it would be Warcraft enough without humans and orcs.

I think originally the LEgion invasion took about 2.5 centuries to reach to the point of the sundering. Means the elves put up a much longer and bigger fight, or it took Azshara much longer to either get so swayed by them or accomplish her plan.

[SethRoguen]

They would probably have Medivh or some other agent open the portal beneath the Tomb of Sargeras

[Kallisto]

Even if the legion winning arguments are flawed. Azeroth is still in trouble with C'Thun in silithus. Without the combined efforts of the Horde and alliance there might not be enough forces to fight back against the old god and his qiraji. None of the EK races would even have any idea he exists (except maybe High elves.) the Tauren would be busy trying to survive against the centaurs and the night elves might not have the numbers for another war down south.

[Beloren]

Even if the legion winning arguments are flawed. Azeroth is still in trouble with C'Thun in silithus. Without the combined efforts of the Horde and alliance there might not be enough forces to fight back against the old god and his qiraji. None of the EK races would even have any idea he exists (except maybe High elves.) the Tauren would be busy trying to survive against the centaurs and the night elves might not have the numbers for another war down south.

but you could also argue because of the orcs, Azeroth is a lot weaker.. the 3rd war decimated the human, and both elven populations drastically, they'd be much stronger without the losses incurred from Wc1 through to WC3

[Varodoc]

The orcs pretty much ruined everything and everyone lol, so it would be a way better place:

- Stormwind: It would still stand, Medivh wouldn't have been killed, Llane would also still be alive.
- Ironforge: Its strongholds would still be standing, the kingdom wouldn't have been devastated all around Ironforge.
- Stromgarde: It wouldn't have been ravaged by the ogre and trolls.
- Alterac: It wouldn't have been intimidated by the orcs to betray the Alliance, leading to its destruction.
- Dalaran: With no Ner'zhul to corrupt Kel'thuzad, he wouldn't have required to summon Archimonde with the Book of Medivh, which lead to Dalaran's destruction.
- Lordaeron: With no Ner'zhul the nation would still be standing, Arthas and Jaina would marry, Uther would be alive, as would Terenas.
- Kul Tiras: Daelin would be alive without Thrall and his Horde provoking the Alliance by hijacking Alliance ships, Derek would be alive, the kingdom wouldn't have been invaded and damaged by the orcs.
- Quel'Thalas: Alleria would still be there without the orcs to pursue, she'd probably settle somewhere with Turalyon after they married, Arator would grow up knowing his loving parents, the kingdom wouldn't have been burned, the Windrunner brother Lirath would be alive, the Amani would have been defeated easily, with no Ner'zhul the kingdom wouldn't have been devastated, Sylvanas would be alive, as would Anasterian, Umbric and his followers wouldn't be obsessed with ensuring the kingdom's protection.
- Alextrasza and her dragons: They wouldn't have been literally raped for war purposes (breeding dragons for the Horde).

See when people tell you that orcs can only mess things up, they aren't kidding. The orcs literally ruined everyone and everything.

[Lothaeryn]

but you could also argue because of the orcs, Azeroth is a lot weaker.. the 3rd war decimated the human, and both elven populations drastically, they'd be much stronger without the losses incurred from Wc1 through to WC3

While that may be true, without the third war, no one in the Alliance would ever set foot on Kalimdor.

Only the Quel'Dorei would even know of the continents existence at the time, and Medivh(as the prophet) was the only reliable source Alliance leadership would "trust" to even look for it.

That is, if there even is an Alliance without the Horde, most of the Kingdom city-states were generally at war with each other over their own differences before the first war, so convincing anyone save the High Elves to set foot on Kalimdor is a large sell to begin with.

Humanity and Elvenkind may have more forces, but hardly any of them would ever leave the Eastern Kingdoms without any believable reason; and someone telling you "theres an ancient bug empire halfway across the world about to unleash hell upon our planet with an ancient god of madness at their center" would likely be met with indifference, or dismissed as the ramblings of a madman. Only the Kirin tor and Quel'Thalas would even know such things existed at all. This isn't even considering the Kaldorei would be outright hostile to anyone setting foot on Kalimdor without due cause. Especially since the Highborne were deliberately exiled with risk upon death for returning.

By the time any real force could be mustered it would likely be too late to stop the first Quiraji invasion force from leaving Ahn'Quiraj.

[Makabreska]

No orcs, no Alliance. Lot's of potential infighting, easy pickings for Legion when they arrive again.

[cparle87]

What....

The orcs weren't even in azeroth the first time the legion invaded, you know...that time where the maelstrom ate itself and the world sundered....the naga were created....Sargeras lost his physical form..... yeah... that was the first time

the SECOND invasion was with the orcs through the dark portal and that wasn't even the "legion" invading it was just the orcs.

THE THIRD invasion was when the legion came, corrupted hellscream and the rest killed cenarius...bla bla. So to say the legion would of won without the orcs....makes 0 sense considering the first time they lost without the orcs and the second time they didn't even go with the orcs. But hey, you do you booboo

It was flat out stated in TBC, in the Black Morass dungeon, that without the orcs to shape Azeroth's history, particularly leading to the formation of the Alliance, and then standing alongside them, that the Legion would've effortlessly conquered and destroyed Azeroth as they did so many other worlds.

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The orcs pretty much ruined everything and everyone lol, so it would be a way better place:

- Stormwind: It would still stand, Medivh wouldn't have been killed, Llane would also still be alive.
- Ironforge: Its strongholds would still be standing, the kingdom wouldn't have been devastated all around Ironforge.
- Stromgarde: It wouldn't have been ravaged by the ogre and trolls.
- Alterac: It wouldn't have been intimidated by the orcs to betray the Alliance, leading to its destruction.
- Dalaran: With no Ner'zhul to corrupt Kel'thuzad, he wouldn't have required to summon Archimonde with the Book of Medivh, which lead to Dalaran's destruction.
- Lordaeron: With no Ner'zhul the nation would still be standing, Arthas and Jaina would marry, Uther would be alive, as would Terenas.
- Kul Tiras: Daelin would be alive without Thrall and his Horde provoking the Alliance by hijacking Alliance ships, Derek would be alive, the kingdom wouldn't have been invaded and damaged by the orcs.
- Quel'Thalas: Alleria would still be there without the orcs to pursue, she'd probably settle somewhere with Turalyon after they married, Arator would grow up knowing his loving parents, the kingdom wouldn't have been burned, the Windrunner brother Lirath would be alive, the Amani would have been defeated easily, with no Ner'zhul the kingdom wouldn't have been devastated, Sylvanas would be alive, as would Anasterian, Umbric and his followers wouldn't be obsessed with ensuring the kingdom's protection.
- Alextrasza and her dragons: They wouldn't have been literally raped for war purposes (breeding dragons for the Horde).

See when people tell you that orcs can only mess things up, they aren't kidding. The orcs literally ruined everyone and everything.

You said so much, and pretty much all of it wrong. We've been told what would've happened between the native Azeroth kingdoms if they hadn't been forced to work together. And it wasn't pretty.

[Beloren]

While that may be true, without the third war, no one in the Alliance would ever set foot on Kalimdor.

Only the Quel'Dorei would even know of the continents existence at the time, and Medivh(as the prophet) was the only reliable source Alliance leadership would "trust" to even look for it.

That is, if there even is an Alliance without the Horde, most of the Kingdom city-states were generally at war with each other over their own differences before the first war, so convincing anyone save the High Elves to set foot on Kalimdor is a large sell to begin with.

Humanity and Elvenkind may have more forces, but hardly any of them would ever leave the Eastern Kingdoms without any believable reason; and someone telling you "theres an ancient bug empire halfway across the world about to unleash hell upon our planet with an ancient god of madness at their center" would likely be met with indifference, or dismissed as the ramblings of a madman. Only the Kirin tor and Quel'Thalas would even know such things existed at all. This isn't even considering the Kaldorei would be outright hostile to anyone setting foot on Kalimdor without due cause. Especially since the Highborne were deliberately exiled with risk upon death for returning.

By the time any real force could be mustered it would likely be too late to stop the first Quiraji invasion force from leaving Ahn'Quiraj.

Ah but it is easy to write that once detected, the Kaldorei would rally the world again, and this time you'd have the Pandaren, the Trolls both of Zandalari and Zul'drak, you'd have the aspects, the keepers. We'd still have all the pillars of creation, without any of the losses, we'll just be minus the orcs and draenei . We'd likely meet the Lightforged en route to Argus. Xe'ra felt we only needed Alleria, Turalyon and Illidan anyway, nothing about the orcs in the light prophecy and it's true, they played no role in the final defeat of the legion, and they were the essential origin of the 2nd invasion. So without them do you still think it won't have worked?

They could write that without hte orcs the legion were still defeated, but without Thrall, victory over the old gods and the hour of twilight would never have happened. But then coudln't a Tauren shaman or even a druid take the place of Thrall for that purpose?

[haiyken]

However, it's possible Medivh would have had more luck rallying the Alliance (or, in the case it never formed, the human nations in general) if Lothar still lived and Khadgar was still present.

Before the events of Warcraft III, there would be a lot of change to the timeline and especially regarding Medivh. We know he's under the influence of Sargeras even before being born. What would be Sargeras' plan if Medivh failed to bring the Orcs to Azeroth through the Dark Portal? What's the next thing he could have done?

My guess is on trying to corrupt other races, especially humans since they're pretty prone to it. Maybe not by fel magic, but it's just easy to create conflict. At this point in time, most human kingdoms are devided and don't trust each other. Kingdoms like Alterac and Stromgarde just hated each other. Even Genn Greymane didn't believe in the alliance of kingdoms during the first and second war, only sending gilnean troops to keep the trade relationships going with other kingdoms. Without a large and foreign enemy like the orcs, there is little doubt an alliance would never be created. Sargeras would probably use Medivh to corrupt cities like Dalaran from within, maybe work with Dreadlords to instigate chaos in their ranks.

I don't think there are races prone to fel corruption like the Orcs on Azeroth. Maybe the Trolls, as they're known for their Berserking ability. I can imagine Sargeras/Medivh being able to manipulate Trolls beliefs in a Loa that would make them take on demon blood (or something similar) to enslave them with fel magic. But while it could be a possibility, I don't see that happening on the same scale as the Orcs because their situation would be really different. Troll aren't driven my combat and war like the Orcs are, so I don't think the same thing could happen.

Without the orcs invading Azeroth, I think the timeline would change drastically. It's very probably the Eastern Kingdoms would be heavily controlled by human kingdoms, expanding a lot more in all regions. It's probable the human kingdoms would have enough ressources to help the High Elves crush the forest Trolls once and for all, securing all of the northern part of the continent. No wars means also a lot of things: no Defias brotherhood as Stormwind never gets destroyed, but also no Silver Hand (and a lot less paladins) as they were a direct response to the orcish invasion and the rise of Death Knights. Characters like Turalyon don't rise to be heroes and inspire the forming of the Alliance. Khadgar probably doesn't kill Medivh, doesn't age, and doesn't become the new Gardian in the future.

It's possible Sargeras and Kil'jaeden could still put into motion their plan to create the Lich King, and maybe still use Ner'zul trapped into the armor. Frostmourne would still exist but is it possible Arthas' destiny would not be the same? Arthas wouldn't have grew up in a worn torn kingdom and, probably, wouldn't have the need to be trained as a paladin (if that order even existed). Arthas was arrogant and self-righteous even before getting his hands on Frostmourne, wich, without a war, would probably push him more into politics than anything else, especially if other human kingdoms were still around and fighting with Lordaeron. In the event of the plague coming to the Eastern Kingdoms, it's probable the story would unfold the same way, because Arthas would still do anything to protect his kingdoms. But would Stratholme end up different? This is the turning point of Arthas' story. Any drastic change in his life until that point could make him make a different decision.

A lot of other events could change a lot without the orcs (but it's not really about the orcs but much more about the wars their invasion created), and the changes get bigger and bigger when this alternative timeline progresses.