"Pay to win"

[bbr]

Getting a single character to level 58 is not "winning" WoW.

That is all.

The "win" part is perceptual.
It just saves you time - but it also gets you a head start.
Imagine a whole guild doing it - they'd get to farming everything that much sooner.

yeah it's silly, and yea it's blizzard milking the game.
It even takes away from the whole experience you should be enjoying in the game, you skip all the content that was there to enjoy and just go straight into the endgame farming boredom.
people that use it will likely quit that much sooner - and lower the amount of resources the server uses. Its win win for blizzard.

[TheRevenantHero]

But they want to play TBC not Classic. Hence the point of the skipping. So that point is irrelevant.

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An advantage that cannot be obtained through in game means. Which levelling to 58 is not.

Tell me one thing in game that lets you skip 58 levels of content without spending real money.

[Super Kami Dende]

So you would be fine with Blizzard selling Mythic and other end-game gear?

If people wanted to buy it? Sure. Doesn't affect my fun in game. And People can still achieve that stuff in game without paying. Next please.

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Tell me one thing in game that lets you skip 58 levels of content without spending real money.

Gold Boosts.

[Darkeon]

If people wanted to buy it? Sure. Doesn't affect my fun in game. And People can still achieve that stuff in game without paying.

That's quite the opinion to have, while dismissing claims of P2W in games. Way to go, champ.

[Prag]

The post I quoted deliberately said that P2W is when you purchase something not achievable otherwise. Try to keep up, my good man.

And your example of something that can’t be achieved without RMT is raid/dungeon gear? Lol.

[chrisnumbers]

The post I quoted deliberately said that P2W is when you purchase something not achievable otherwise. Try to keep up, my good man.

We all know what you're trying to do, leaping all the way from being 58 means it's ok to buy full bis. I'm way ahead of you.

[Drusin]

The post I quoted deliberately said that P2W is when you purchase something not achievable otherwise. Try to keep up, my good man.

You can achieve 58 though, you can't skip to 58 with any method I'm aware of but that's not what "not available" means lol. Not available would be I can pay to be 80 when non-paying players are stuck at 70.

[Super Kami Dende]

That's quite the opinion to have, while dismissing claims of P2W in games. Way to go, champ.

I didn't dismiss games can be P2W, I said WoW isn't. Nice reading, Kiddo.

[Darkeon]

I didn't dismiss games can be P2W, I said WoW isn't. Nice reading, Kiddo.

In games, WoW included. When was the last game where you were able to pay for unavailable power in a game? The industry already moved on from the early 00s.

Nowadays is all about ridiculous grinds, a la Fifa Ultimate Team or any sort of gacha mobile game, where you either play for ridiculous countless hours or you buy your way through progression.

Funnily enough, these mobile games were easily labeled as P2W.... but WoW can't. lol
Get the credit card~

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We all know what you're trying to do, leaping all the way from being 58 means it's ok to buy full bis. I'm way ahead of you.

Both cases it's getting something already available in-game. Get your dishonest arse outta here if you change your definitions of P2W to suit your interests.

Paying for power, whether it is paying free levels that would otherwise take weeks to get, or paying for a piece of gear, is exactly the same concept - Buying Power with Fucking Money. The amount of power is completely irrelevant when it comes to the concept - it's either P2W or it's not.

Now, if you want to argue that WoW is actually quite tame and reasonable than, say, Star Wars™: Galaxy of Heroes, when it comes to P2W... then I agree with you there.

[Prag]

In games, WoW included. When was the last game where you were able to pay for unavailable power in a game? The industry already moved on from the early 00s.

Nowadays is all about ridiculous grinds, a la Fifa Ultimate Team or any sort of gacha mobile game, where you either play for ridiculous countless hours or you buy your way through progression.

Funnily enough, these mobile games were easily labeled as P2W.... but WoW can't. lol
Get the credit card~

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Both cases it's getting something already available in-game. Get your dishonest arse outta here if you change your definitions of P2W to suit your interests.

Paying for power, whether it is paying free levels that would otherwise take weeks to get, or paying for a piece of gear, is exactly the same concept - Buying Power with Fucking Money. The amount of power is completely irrelevant when it comes to the concept - it's either P2W or it's not.

Now, if you want to argue that WoW is actually quite tame and reasonable than, say, Star Wars™: Galaxy of Heroes, when it comes to P2W... then I agree with you there.

“Oh, you were really excited to experience TBC again? Just re-invest another 80-90 hours /played and you can experience it all over again!” is a hard sell.

Stop acting like it’s skipping current content. If people wanted the full experience through Vanilla and into TBC, they’d have done it. Some did their time and want to play TBC.

We’re here to play TBC, and that’s what they’ve enabled people to do. Adding drama where none is needed to force people to subscribe for multiple months before they can even play TBC is just not the experience you want it to be.

[Darkeon]

“Oh, you were really excited to experience TBC again? Just re-invest another 80-90 hours /played and you can experience it all over again!” is a hard sell.

Stop acting like it’s skipping current content. If people wanted the full experience through Vanilla and into TBC, they’d have done it. Some did their time and want to play TBC.

We’re here to play TBC, and that’s what they’ve enabled people to do. Adding drama where none is needed to force people to subscribe for multiple months before they can even play TBC is just not the experience you want it to be.

It's irrelevant whether it's skipping old content or new. Or whether it's boosts on Classic or Retail.

[Super Kami Dende]

Get your dishonest arse outta here if you change your definitions of P2W to suit your interests.

The irony of the guy, who has been trying to change the definition to suit his interests, saying this to literally anyone. When in the same post he changes the definition to suit his.

You're a joke. just accept the L.

[Darkeon]

The irony of the guy, who has been trying to change the definition to suit his interests, saying this to literally anyone. When in the same post he changes the definition to suit his.

You're a joke. just accept the L.

Buying any power for money is P2W. That has been my stance since always.

Good try.

[Vishiz]

pay to win

What exactly are you winning? You're literally ONLY saving time for something that does not contribute to the power of your character. You have no power advantage over anyone else. You're not going to beat endgame faster than anyone else(only faster than you would have on your own) because of it. Who cares? As if you even had a chance to compete if you weren't level 60 in Naxx gear before the expansion released anyway...

Are you saying that getting a mount and level 58 in TBC, an expansion where the level cap is 70 = Winning?

Who cares if someone pays for a boost? It takes most players months to get from 1-58, who cares if they chose to pay money to skip a meaningless month long grind? how is that affecting anything else?

I mean I get it, everyone is mad because we have to play with these people who don't understand their class yet.... so what? Take the boost away, now they just don't play at all because who has that amount of time. Is the community that much better off without those people?

[Prag]

It's irrelevant whether it's skipping old content or new. Or whether it's boosts on Classic or Retail.

Sure, I’ll bite.

Why is it irrelevant? Or is this just the arbitrary rule set forth by the old guard?

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Buying any power for money is P2W. That has been my stance since always.

Good try.

Time isn’t power. If it were, casuals with 500 days played on retail wouldn’t need LFR.

[Darkeon]

Sure, I’ll bite.

Why is it irrelevant? Or is this just the arbitrary rule set forth by the old guard?

Because it merely shows a gradient of several levels of how egregious or acceptable the power purchase is.

"It's only to get you through older content faster so you can play the current expansion."
"It's not the most powerful armor in the game."
"There's ways to obtain multi-seaters mounts in-game, not just the store."
"You can only purchase a 5 star character, you will have to put all the little equipments on him to actually optimize it"
All these examples, out of the top of my head from several games, show that some cases of P2W are worse than others. But, in the end, all of them a problem of P2W.

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Time isn’t power. If it were, casuals with 500 days played on retail wouldn’t need LFR.

Time is most valuable currency being leveraged in these transactions.

[Prag]

Because it merely shows a gradient of several levels of how egregious or acceptable the power purchase is.

"It's only to get you through older content faster so you can play the current expansion."
"It's not the most powerful armor in the game."
"There's ways to obtain multi-seaters mounts in-game, not just the store."
"You can only purchase a 5 star character, you will have to put all the little equipments on him to actually optimize it"
All these examples, out of the top of my head from several games, show that some cases of P2W are worse than others. But, in the end, all of them a problem of P2W.

Oh, the slippery slope argument.

Should we give the shop, that’s existed for 10 years, another 10 years to prove your doompost accurate?

Time is most valuable currency being leveraged in these transactions.

Still not power. Keep trying?

[Darkeon]

Oh, the slippery slope argument.

Should we give the shop, that’s existed for 10 years, another 10 years to prove your doompost accurate?

Wasn't talking solely about WoW store. I am sure you would have noticed it if you had actually read the post.

Still not power. Keep trying?

Player A buys boost.
Player B doesn't buy the boost.
They fight. Who wins?

[javierdsv]

Yo... So... What's the point?
If wow is pay to win or not, what do you achieve by proving or not your argument? Does that change anything?

Just play the damn game, or not. That won't change anything either.

[Prag]

Wasn't talking solely about WoW store. I am sure you would have noticed it if you had actually read the post.

I read it, I just don’t know why you’d use other games’ cash shops to answer my question on relevance to skipping old content. I was giving you benefit of the doubt.

Player A buys boost.
Player B doesn't buy the boost.
They fight. Who wins?

If we’re going to make asinine comparisons, let’s compare the power of a $40 boost character vs one after 3 months of game time.