Bring back Hellfire?

[enigma77]

So what you're saying is you are the worst warlock player out there. Got it.

No I'm saying you're a buffoon and I am reminded why I prefer engaging with better, passionate players on Discord, rather than wasting my energy here on this site filled to the brim with half-wits like yourself.

Continue proving your stupidity, you pathetic, miserable mongrel.

[klogaroth]

Hellfire would be something of a problem in raids. Melee spots are often at a premium as it is, trying to get a warlock (or several warlocks) in there could be something of a nightmare. We have reasonable AoE options, it just depends purely on their tuning. Adding in hellfire could just end up with us having another button that does roughly the same damage, and has some downsides. Arcane mages will tell you that going into melee doesn't always mean you're going to be a favoured spec.

[LordVargK]

Warlock utility in M+ is pretty shit. The only unique thing is Healthstone, which is mostly just a "nice to have" thing. Everything else - it's nothing other classes don't do already in M+ and often better at that.

People who start listing shopping list of CCs and fringe stuff are funny. As if a 3 sec AoE stun and 3 sec Horror are some sort of insane propositions, when you have plenty of classes that can do just that and more anyway.

Individually the things on my list might seem shit, but combined with all the other things it gives WLs a very versatile toolkit to deal with all situations. Yes, we lack the one big CD that every group can play around with their pulls. But WL utility is far from "shit". We are at least in the top half of all classes when it comes to the utility we bring. That's what's "quite good" to me. Not the best, but better than many others. Also I forgot to mention our BR and Ritual of Summoning (which comes in handy if only your healer dies and would have to walk back from the entrance to the instance).

[Gaidax]

Gateway
summon
healthstone
banish
fear
horror
stun
interrupt

IS NOT SHIT and way more than others have... so spare us your Bullshit

You either don't use ANY of that crap in M+ aside from HS or it is situational like Banish or inferior to alternatives like gateway, CC, interrupt.

It's about M+ utility and there it's lacking really. I'll say it again - aside from HS and Banish in one dung, you bring NOTHING to M+ that others don't do already or even do better.

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Individually the things on my list might seem shit, but combined with all the other things it gives WLs a very versatile toolkit to deal with all situations. Yes, we lack the one big CD that every group can play around with their pulls. But WL utility is far from "shit". We are at least in the top half of all classes when it comes to the utility we bring. That's what's "quite good" to me. Not the best, but better than many others. Also I forgot to mention our BR and Ritual of Summoning (which comes in handy if only your healer dies and would have to walk back from the entrance to the instance).

Again, M+ is about filling 5 spot with the biggest bang for your buck. Mage got Time Warp and +5% int on top of it - mage gets in. What warlocks get? A bunch of CC everyone has anyway and HS? Not quite up to snuff to lust, buddy.

It's a BIG reason why Warlocks are not part of meta or being 2nd class citizens in M+. You just don't do much anything aside from damage. That's not some grand proposition.

Raids, sure. You legit can't even do some bosses without gateway, such as M.SLG/M.Sire. But M+? It's just not useful or has better alternatives anyway.

[Surfacin9]

If you could cast it at ranged, to an area or around a target, that'd be fine. But the melee limitation and health cost together make the Walock too much of a liability when trying to ranged dps.

But that would make it exactly like rain of fire, cataclysm and flamestrike and others, press the button, place the circle, click, retire. There is no fun, no engagement. Creating a "slightly higher risk - much higher reward" could have the potential of making it desirable. The HP cost can be played with, for example (off the top of my head, don't judge, I'm not sying its the way it should be, just to show how it can worked with) - after 15/10/5/3 sec of dealing damage (not just channelling, or just channeling, both ways can work), 100%/50%/30% of the hp lost to the channel (not other sources) is returned back to the caster.

Think it'd be a much better solution to just make it a ranged drop down reticle ability.

As you note, the Channeled nature of the ability also doesn't allow the Warlock to engage with any other actions during it. So either it would need a very long CD so that "not doing anything while you Hellfire," doesn't become a staple of the core loop (or lack thereof). There's a reason a lot of classes went away from abilities like Channeled Blizzards and Channeled Hurricanes -- just sitting there holding the spell isn't involved and doesn't result in any decision making.

I don't have anything against Hellfire if you're casting it like FnB but you're instant-casting every pulse of Hellfire. Makes that more engaging. And arguably, this would be more active than FnB if it was on a GCD cast rather than a hard-casted Incinerate as well. The movement actually gives them something to do.

But, again, it'd have to be a ranged reticle ability. The lack of Warlock mobility still doesn't do this any favors, and the alternative method of making it like Starfall carries too much group wipe potential that would have to be reigned in constantly and fixed periodically like Starfall currently is. I think a ranged reticle Hellfire is, frankly, just a lot more usable. But, at that point, it's pretty comparable to Rain of Fire. If Hellfire is meant to be Demo or Destro is probably where this starts to question which it fits the fantasy better for. Arguably Destro should have it... as it's, y'know, fire.

Or it can work like immo aura but with a on-and-off toggle, that allows casting while using it.

"There's a reason a lot of classes went away from abilities like Channeled Blizzards and Channeled Hurricanes -- just sitting there holding the spell isn't involved and doesn't result in any decision making" - you can say that to Drain Soul. Channeled abilities actually are much more interesting than castable. You have to move mid-cast you lose the whole spell or you die, if you have to move mid-channel, you lose only the remaining portion of the damage.

But hellfire is a really flavourful but also really boring ability. If it is worth casting then having to channel an ability to do DPS is pretty lame, especially if it does not interact with your toolkit in any way. And if it does not do decent dmg, then why bother? WL specs don't really have downtime in AoE, so we don't need a filler.

If it generates shards for destru, then it becomes a meele FnB. Rather than bringing hellfire back, FnB must be baseline.

Screw FnB, they brought it back, it was useful for a bit and never since. Can even go as far as replacing it in the talents with Hellfire. You do have a point, but what exactly is fun about standing in 1 place, jumping and hitting the exact sequence of buttons in the exact order for an exact amount of times (talking about mage during combust)? The fun part is the amount of damage it does, that's what excites people. Obviuosly, there are ways to screw it up and to master it, but it isn't really hard.

But a spell like Breath of Sindragosa makes it fun both in the end damage and the execution. It is prone to randomness (rune generation from RP usage), its usage can be affected by other abilities (empower rune weapon, swarming mist) and RP generatingg legendaries, its harder to execute, you need to balance RP generation to not overcap and so on. Of course its a bummer when you get CCed, or mess it up, because of its long CD. But for me its probably the best ability in game. Hellfire can be made into something similar with a proper design.

No thanks, warlock dmg is fine in M+, more than fine actually.

It is fine, not arguing. But we're far from meta. Most PuGs only allow for 1 non-meta class maximum, otherwise they risk potentioally screwing themselves. And read it again - "fine"; not "great", not even "good". I'm talking about making them amazing. To further strengthen the "no utility" argument, when you bring the damage, others can bring the utility that you lack.

[Gaidax]

I just think that your whole Hellfire push is misguided, the thing was useless back when burst AoE was not even a thing. Now it will be even more useless.

Meta now is crazy on demand burst and Hellfire is everything but that. Yes, it's practically another Rain of Fire, except you can't even snowball it - you are not going to impress anyone with that in m+.

Maybe it it was redesigned to nuke you for 30% of max hp instantly and do that anount of damage per target in AoE in next 3 seconds with 1 min cd, then we'd talk. But then it won't be really old Hellfire anyway.

[Fenrys]

Warlock does pretty great damage (even in M+). I don't think it is a particularly radical statement to suggest that the reason it isn't meta is down to utility and to some degree damage profiles. Adding a new spell, which it would then be balanced around, unless it causes lock to do 20% more than the next class (see fire mage), isn't going to change the meta that much

[Razion]

Or it can work like immo aura but with a on-and-off toggle, that allows casting while using it.

"There's a reason a lot of classes went away from abilities like Channeled Blizzards and Channeled Hurricanes -- just sitting there holding the spell isn't involved and doesn't result in any decision making" - you can say that to Drain Soul. Channeled abilities actually are much more interesting than castable. You have to move mid-cast you lose the whole spell or you die, if you have to move mid-channel, you lose only the remaining portion of the damage.

I mean hell we can say that about casted abilities in general. More time spent sitting there, casting the spell, rather than pressing another ability. It's a TON of dead time compared to more active melee dps where they on average are pressing more buttons with even at that lower GCDs across certain melee. But not all specs have to be carpel tunnel, some specs can be more cerebral and thought out versus more action-paced. There's also a problem with balancing ranged with tons of GCD abilities because at that point they get all the benefit of ranged, and then melee don't have a viable strength of their own -- which previously would be on the move demand gcds while maintaining their full rotation. Ranged are generally hurt more by having to move. This is why old abilities like Fel Flame were removed from Warlock, and why other abilities like Shadowflame were also removed. Too many movement options made Warlocks too optimal while moving and less punished for moving when it was supposed to be a corner weakness of the class entirely.

The stark comparison to an ability like Shadow Bolt, and Hellfire, is one is going to be cast over roughly two seconds and the other would normally be held for, what, a really long time if not indefinitely when it was optimal. Hellfire was problematic not only because it didn't work with Warlocks' base movement, and because it put excess stress on Healers, but also because it compromised the balance between ranged and melee when Warlocks did have the range and when it was good. Not having to press any other buttons, only one button ever, with absolutely no planning or cerebral set-up, versus a melee spamming for their life, was not a good effort to reward ratio. Same mentality of them neutering things like combining two trinkets into Bladestorm macros and all that -- they wanted to reduce the amount of "one button win" scenarios the game was having across the board. Arcane even around Wrath, literally just spamming Arcane Barrage, was notably a huge problem at the time as well.

Some abilities historically with Channel work while moving, others don't. If the Channel is only worthwhile after the whole duration, the only risk there is when the Channel is so long that any interruption becomes increasingly dangerous. So even putting Hellfire into any competitive M+ or Mythic Raiding scenario, Warlocks would feel even MORE punished for moving to cancel a Hellfire than they would be if the Channel were allowed to persist while moving. They'd just be incredibly upset if this key part of their damage was interrupted while moving.

Again, reticle on CD can fix a lot of this issue. The CD can help balance the offset of mobility of ranged vs melee so Warlock isn't mobile all the time, it doesn't feel unfairly punishing to stop if it has to be, it keeps the option there as a planned use periodically for use when it is needed but not available constantly. It's a fine middle-ground for a spec that generally doesn't have a lot of movement options. And arguably, it's probably even too generous to make it instant GCD reticle on a CD. Some abilities, like Cataclysm, function with hard-casts. Saying Hellfire has to have some element of Channeling for flavor, even if it's a BRIEF channel would be fine -- like, a 1.5s channel, can be channeled while moving, those kinds of situations are more acceptable. Spammable indefinitely gets into compromising the melee-ranged balancing situation, but on a sufficient CD more channeling becomes acceptable. But, standing there not pressing anything for at or over three seconds starts to become incredibly "spin to win" and increases rage when it gets interrupted - and I'd argue should be avoided.

[Surfacin9]

I just think that your whole Hellfire push is misguided, the thing was useless back when burst AoE was not even a thing. Now it will be even more useless.

It ain't a push, just something I wanted to discuss and still think would be cool to add back to the game.

Meta now is crazy on demand burst and Hellfire is everything but that. Yes, it's practically another Rain of Fire, except you can't even snowball it - you are not going to impress anyone with that in m+. Maybe it it was redesigned to nuke you for 30% of max hp instantly and do that anount of damage per target in AoE in next 3 seconds with 1 min cd, then we'd talk. But then it won't be really old Hellfire anyway.

I'm not asking for old Hellfire to be back, it didn't work then, it won't work now. But redesigned to be the aoe nuke button. Flamestrike, Blizzard, Rain of Fire - none of them work exactly the same as they did at the start. They all either changed somehow of had interactions added though talents, borrowed power and etc.

So let's not be narrow minded here and instead try to expand on the idea. But I guess everyone is extremely happy with their current state for m+ that they don't want to change.

Adding a new spell, which it would then be balanced around, unless it causes lock to do 20% more than the next class (see fire mage), isn't going to change the meta that much

This is the whole idea. Like I said in the OP - a spell that will make warlock shine in aoe, i.e. do insane damage that they'd be worth a nr.1 pick, instead of being picked as a 3rd option while the other 2 are filled with the meta classes.

Talking about utility - it only matters when you push higher keys or are undergeared, the low and mid keys (up to +16) can mostly be brute-forced with adequate gear.

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snip

Destro already has 2 abilities with reticle, 1 with CD, the other without, with cast time and without - cataclysm and rain of fire. I wish cataclysm would hit for more to justify its name, its good on low keys when it take a good chunk of mob hp, but in higher keys its there only for the initial burst and not enough for the fight. Fully channelled is CDF. So even thought I get what you're saying and don't disagree, it will not sit well with the current toolkit.

Having it as a button button channel nuke will not be fun and too op to stay in the game.

That's why I see it being different, may be not a channel, but more like Immo Aura combined with Burning rush with the health drain effect - you toggle it on and off. It won't be like playing melee in terms of APM.

Now you're saying that it will make things too good, or abilities get removed for being too optimal. You fail to see that others have what we don't and can do more damage. Mages have blink, dragon's breath, phoenix flames; hunters can dps on the go; boomkins, they only need to stand still during convoke )))) Warlocks have what? Aff can refresh dots for a minimal dps gain, more lucky if they need to move during pandemic windows, demo has implosion which has to be prepped and instant dogs and demonbolt if the procs are up, destro has conflag and rain of chaos that costs 3 shards and does little damage while not talented.

Warlock doesn't have the movement options except soulshape that can be used once per fight (may be 2 if the fight takes too long), gateway and circle that need to be prepped. So why not give a good dps movement option that isn't completele free? You still get punished by having to walk into melee and losing health - these restriction will keep the spell from being too optimal or a win in every situation.

[Garymorilix]

The reason Hellfire was removed was twofold - the health chunking made you a liability to healers on any threatening content. Two, having to move to melee was especially painful for a class with not only little mobility but also it was one of the only reasons you got into melee. As a caster, with hard cast spells, positioning to melee before you could AoE as well made you a liability next to other ranged who could do their AoE from far away.

If you could cast it at ranged, to an area or around a target, that'd be fine. But the melee limitation and health cost together make the Walock too much of a liability when trying to ranged dps.

I personally think that Hellfire could work as a spell for Demo Locks with Hellfire being cast on your Felguard (so it pulses around it, not you).
It would be basically a channeled CD-less version of Demonic Strength.
Would give some nice sustained AoE paired with a big burst of Demonic Strength or Bilescourge Bombers.

Other than that, yea, don't bring it back a melee AoE spell for locks.

Edit: Now that I think about it it would be a nice AoE filler to channel.
If it hits 3+ enemies with a pulse you would gain 1 Soul Shard. Boom, instantly better than spamming shadowbolts.

[Razion]

Destro already has 2 abilities with reticle, 1 with CD, the other without, with cast time and without - cataclysm and rain of fire. I wish cataclysm would hit for more to justify its name, its good on low keys when it take a good chunk of mob hp, but in higher keys its there only for the initial burst and not enough for the fight. Fully channelled is CDF. So even thought I get what you're saying and don't disagree, it will not sit well with the current toolkit.

Having it as a button button channel nuke will not be fun and too op to stay in the game.

That's why I see it being different, may be not a channel, but more like Immo Aura combined with Burning rush with the health drain effect - you toggle it on and off. It won't be like playing melee in terms of APM.

Now you're saying that it will make things too good, or abilities get removed for being too optimal. You fail to see that others have what we don't and can do more damage. Mages have blink, dragon's breath, phoenix flames; hunters can dps on the go; boomkins, they only need to stand still during convoke )))) Warlocks have what? Aff can refresh dots for a minimal dps gain, more lucky if they need to move during pandemic windows, demo has implosion which has to be prepped and instant dogs and demonbolt if the procs are up, destro has conflag and rain of chaos that costs 3 shards and does little damage while not talented.

Warlock doesn't have the movement options except soulshape that can be used once per fight (may be 2 if the fight takes too long), gateway and circle that need to be prepped. So why not give a good dps movement option that isn't completele free? You still get punished by having to walk into melee and losing health - these restriction will keep the spell from being too optimal or a win in every situation.

I wouldn't be against Hellfire being an ability that goes out from a target, either. I think that's a bit more unwieldy in terms of a Channel, as when targets die it interrupts the Channel and that can feel bad. It can put emphasis to use the ability at the right time versus the wrong time. There's a bit of a give and take there, and what kind of CD it would have would largely play into the feel of that.

In terms of mobility, I do think that generally Warlocks suffer a bit unfairly from having a bit less mobility that they could otherwise. But they'd have to lose something else to make up for it. Warlocks right now are kind of in a canon fantasy versus a glass canon fantasy. What makes them a bit more unique compared to something like a Mage is that they can soak hits and sacrifice a lot of health because they are a bit beefier. They have those extra pools to draw from so that they can play with the extra health, to give the class that sacrificial flavor. If the mobility were to be increased and the control were to be increased, it'd have to become more fragile. Maybe some Warlocks would be happy with that, but I think it brings homogenization closer between Mages and Warlocks and makes them seem more similar and less special from each other with less tangible differences. I won't argue that maybe it would feel better for Warlocks to be more like a glass canon, because I think as cloth ranged that makes a lot of sense frankly, but to the theme of the Class and the fantasy I think it fits better for Warlocks to not be as mobile if that makes sense. But I wouldn't be against them getting Hellfire as a ranged mobile option, as long as it wasn't too frequent. How long the CD is, again, is a large part in how that would feel I think and is the crucial part here. But I wouldn't know what number to put on it really.

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I personally think that Hellfire could work as a spell for Demo Locks with Hellfire being cast on your Felguard (so it pulses around it, not you).
It would be basically a channeled CD-less version of Demonic Strength.
Would give some nice sustained AoE paired with a big burst of Demonic Strength or Bilescourge Bombers.

Other than that, yea, don't bring it back a melee AoE spell for locks.

Edit: Now that I think about it it would be a nice AoE filler to channel.
If it hits 3+ enemies with a pulse you would gain 1 Soul Shard. Boom, instantly better than spamming shadowbolts.

I think that's actually a really good idea. The "hell" portion of the hellfire in this case comes from the demon, so that part of it can kind of make a degree of sense. Keeps it both ranged and melee in a sense, while maintaining the identity it used to have as an old Demo ability. I'm not too tied to it being a Destro ability, just thought as fire it made more sense there. I think it going on Felguard is frankly a really good and genius way to go about it. The Hellfire might have to be kind of close to the Felguard to prevent rampant soft CC breaks. On paper the idea of Hellfire on the Felguard I think is really good.

[LordVargK]

Screw FnB, they brought it back, it was useful for a bit and never since. Can even go as far as replacing it in the talents with Hellfire. You do have a point, but what exactly is fun about standing in 1 place, jumping and hitting the exact sequence of buttons in the exact order for an exact amount of times (talking about mage during combust)? The fun part is the amount of damage it does, that's what excites people. Obviuosly, there are ways to screw it up and to master it, but it isn't really hard.

But a spell like Breath of Sindragosa makes it fun both in the end damage and the execution. It is prone to randomness (rune generation from RP usage), its usage can be affected by other abilities (empower rune weapon, swarming mist) and RP generatingg legendaries, its harder to execute, you need to balance RP generation to not overcap and so on. Of course its a bummer when you get CCed, or mess it up, because of its long CD. But for me its probably the best ability in game. Hellfire can be made into something similar with a proper design.

They did not bring FnB back. They sacrificed a talent slot for it so as long as Cataclysm exists it will be a dead talent (like so many talents are). I'm talking about making it baseline and at best in its original implementation: With FnB activated Incinerate costs 1 Soul shard to cast, but hits all targets for full damage.
I'm with you on mage combust: It's a ludicrous ability and extremely boring.

Of course Hellfire could be made into something else. But it would not be hellfire then, would it? Just making FnB baseline is the simplest solution possible for destru, since it keeps the current playstyle completely intact. Making hellfire a talent would only create unnecessary balancing problems.

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I personally think that Hellfire could work as a spell for Demo Locks with Hellfire being cast on your Felguard (so it pulses around it, not you).
It would be basically a channeled CD-less version of Demonic Strength.
Would give some nice sustained AoE paired with a big burst of Demonic Strength or Bilescourge Bombers.

Edit: Now that I think about it it would be a nice AoE filler to channel.
If it hits 3+ enemies with a pulse you would gain 1 Soul Shard. Boom, instantly better than spamming shadowbolts.

That spell existed in Legion. It was called "Demonwrath".

[Garymorilix]

That spell existed in Legion. It was called "Demonwrath".

Damn, I didn't have a warlock back then. I musta invoked my inner class designer there.

It'd be nice having something like this strictly focused on your Felguard (as, that is your one guaranteed demon in melee range).
Have them make it a strictly 3+ or 4+ target AoE filler and it would be a nice addition.

[muto]

Gateway
summon
healthstone
banish
fear
horror
stun
interrupt

IS NOT SHIT and way more than others have... so spare us your Bullshit

Ah true summon is pretty meta in m+. After you deplete the key you can summon your friends back after they’ve gone and switched talents. Mortal Coil is also a great tool to wipe your group since it doesn’t break on damage. About the only thing you listed there that’s actually useful is the Soulstone and the Banish. All other classes have better kicks as they aren’t tied to a pet, and have better AoE stuns that last longer and don’t have a cast time, like Leg Sweep. Gateway is occasionally good for skips, but I mean let’s be real here, you could just bring a Rogue instead.

[FelPlague]

Gateway
summon
healthstone
banish
fear
horror
stun
interrupt

IS NOT SHIT and way more than others have... so spare us your Bullshit

1. ok true
2. how is summon meta?
3. cool but not really meta
4. banish was once good, but now? lol no, there is so... SOOOOO few mobs that we can banish in this expansion.
5. also fear, no one uses fear, its the WORST CC, cause it causes mobs to run away
6. horror? what?
7. stun, ok long cd aoe stun yep sure
8. long CD intterupt that is locked to our pet choice yeah...


9. you missing banish buddy.

No it is not "way more then others have"
its about the same, but less then moonkin and mage.

[hzjf]

Ah true summon is pretty meta in m+. After you deplete the key you can summon your friends back after they’ve gone and switched talents. Mortal Coil is also a great tool to wipe your group since it doesn’t break on damage. About the only thing you listed there that’s actually useful is the Soulstone and the Banish. All other classes have better kicks as they aren’t tied to a pet, and have better AoE stuns that last longer and don’t have a cast time, like Leg Sweep. Gateway is occasionally good for skips, but I mean let’s be real here, you could just bring a Rogue instead.

or you can stop crying like a little fucking twelve year old who doesnt get what he wants . Warlocks have Stuff. yet you fucking act like they have nothing

you can do 15 keys with every shit spec in the game. you can even do 20s... so FFS stop whining you little crybabys

[muto]

or you can stop crying like a little fucking twelve year old who doesnt get what he wants . Warlocks have Stuff. yet you fucking act like they have nothing

you can do 15 keys with every shit spec in the game. you can even do 20s... so FFS stop whining you little crybabys

Oh the sweet irony. You’re the one acting like a child.

Also, of course they can time 15s, but if someone has an option of taking a more meta class or a Warlock, they’re usually gonna take the more meta class.

[Advent]

Oh the sweet irony. You’re the one acting like a child.

Also, of course they can time 15s, but if someone has an option of taking a more meta class or a Warlock, they’re usually gonna take the more meta class.

Sure. Hell, I probably would too. But that's because I hate warrior players. Public perception is a bitch, I guess. You do get to set your own rules when you make the group yourself though. Worth a shot.

[Raugnaut]

I don't get it. Curse of Weakness is nearly a 20% damage reduction on almost every boss. Curse of Tongues is amazing on any problematic caster. Sure, the AoE portion requries being Venthyr, but it's not like Venthyr is a 50% DPS loss.

Actually, are Venthyr soulbinds that bad compared to everyone else?