[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Varodoc]

I think Cersei’s death was bullshit. She caused so many people pain and suffering, yet she died in a romantic way and was even peaceful looking, without even being smashed-in physically by the massive boulders that supposedly crushed them.

Disappointing and not a satisfying ending for viewers, imo.

Compared to Daenerys, who was betrayed and stabbed by her lover just as they were kissing, and who died with a clear expression of shock and disbelief on her face, Cersei definitely got it easy. They still died and will be remembered as tyrants, but at least Cersei died on her own terms.

[draynay]

I think Cersei’s death was bullshit. She caused so many people pain and suffering, yet she died in a romantic way and was even peaceful looking, without even being smashed-in physically by the massive boulders that supposedly crushed them.

Disappointing and not a satisfying ending for viewers, imo.

I have no idea why the writing team liked her so much, she was as vile a person as there can be.

[Mehrunes]

so much this.

I mean.. in a books Dany and Cercei even mirror each other with how much they are consumed with those prophecies of doom they both received. if I remember correctly, in a show they didn't get to the part of Cercei dying to valonqar, right? which adds so much subtext that was missing in a show, both as far as Jaimie's character (who is technically the younger twin) AND Tyrion, whom she hates regardless, but that prophesy gives it more weight..

This topic was actually mentioned in one of the "it's anniversary of GOT so let's talk some more smack about the ending" YouTube videos I've watched recently so I can confirm that the valonqar part of the prophecy was indeed cut out from the show.

this show is just so much wasted potential. so many wasted characters... I keep thinking about Sansa that is alternately told to us to be shrewd and supposedly sets up Littlefinger with Arya, playing a long game to catch him offguard... but then instead of using information about Jon's parentage for a long game, to her advantage.. she just blabs about it? is she or is she not shrewd? I mean.. she used to be. back when she survived King's landing on her wit's alone, playing submissive loyal girl, undermining Jeoffrey in a way that pushed him into a corner of his own ego.

I don't think it's even accurate calling them characters in the last season(s). It's more like they were plot devices. They had to fulfill whatever purpose they were needed for in a given scene, no matter how out of character they acted. Or, in case of Sansa's supposed smartness which is a massive case of "tell, don't show", out of what the writers thought the character to be.

[Varodoc]

I expected Daenery to die tragically, but they half-assed tried to kill her in a similar way to the prophecy after basically trolling viewers the entire time with the Prince That Was Promised, only to do nothing with it but have some end-scene with a dragon throwing a tantrum and burning a chair instead of the guy that killed his mom… cause that’s “symbolic”.

Lazy bullshit ending. They did Dany wrong.

And I’m still really bothered with the scene in the pits between Dany and Jon, where he brings up her maybe being wrong about her being able to conceive. Like, why even have that damn conversation if you weren’t going to do anything with it? Why?

Ugh.

Yeah honestly what happened to Daenerys was a complete waste. The funny thing is that I didn't even care about her nor was I fan, but her story was objectively a waste. She didn't even get to sit on that throne, only touch it, 10 years of sacrifices and struggles all for nothing.

[Deadite]

I disagree. And the point overall really illustrates that the show had one set of facts going whereas other information, outside the show, had another. The whole thing with where the NK had to be stabbed specifically never made the show, so it literally didn't exist as something to be addressed, in the show. It's why Arya's kill of the NK works so well for me, and at the exact same time seems so shitty to you - because you knew about that NK kill detail, and the series itself didn't. I'll be perfectly honest here - had I know about that ahead of time, it would bug me as well. But as it is, Arya's NK was terrific, well built up, and justified in the sense that someone was going to have to do it - the NK couldn't win after all.

Eh? Bran saw the Night King being made so he did know. He even looked at at the same spot and did his creepy smile when the Night Kings was looming over him. The only thing is how Arya knew. Guess like most of her training it was off screen.

[Jastall]

Eh? Bran saw the Night King being made so he did know. He even looked at at the same spot and did his creepy smile when the Night Kings was looming over him. The only thing is how Arya knew. Guess like most of her training it was off screen.

IMO it would have made more sense had Bran warged into Arya so she knew his weak spot and exactly how to kill him/sneak past the Wights and Walkers. The scene would still have been poor, but at least it 1) gives an explanation as to why her ganking worked besides luck and 2) makes Bran useful as something else than bait for once in his crippled life.

[Isilrien]

Yeah honestly what happened to Daenerys was a complete waste. The funny thing is that I didn't even care about her nor was I fan, but her story was objectively a waste. She didn't even get to sit on that throne, only touch it, 10 years of sacrifices and struggles all for nothing.

I couldn't stand her character and even less in the books. However, I agree that her story felt wasteful to me given the ending.

[Berndorf]

I feel like it suffered a lot from GRRM not really having a clear vision that they could follow. They went from pretty much reenacting entire scenes from the books with almost identical dialogue to veering a bit off in s4-6 then to suddenly being in entirely uncharted territory in s7-8, basically working off of rough outlines given to them by George and having to do all the dialogue with their own writers. It showed. It was a recipe for disaster as soon as George stopped releasing the books.

[Adamas102]

I have no idea why the writing team liked her so much, she was as vile a person as there can be.

Did they like her that much? Before her death in that final season she did little but stand around giving her baby fetal alcohol syndrome. Just like Jon and Tyrion she spent almost all her screen time just watching plot unfold around her rather than actually doing anything of value. I felt she was just another forgotten character, lost by the wayside while the writers scrambled to wrap things up.

[cubby]

Almost at the end of Season 4 - some asshat in this discussion was lamenting the falsity of Arya "because she doesn't really kill anyone even before arriving at Bravos" - fucking nitwits. Her kill count before they reach the Vale is 8, boys and men.

Another thing - watching Dany grow to become a queen. There is a scene in Meereen with the Second Sons leader being sent back to [forgot the name] to retake the city and kill ALL the masters - she wanted them all slaughtered and Jorah talks her out of it. After his betrayal, her slide starts. And right after Jorah gives her that advice to be merciful, almost literally, she learns of Jorah's betrayal. So starts the slide.

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Eh? Bran saw the Night King being made so he did know. He even looked at at the same spot and did his creepy smile when the Night Kings was looming over him. The only thing is how Arya knew. Guess like most of her training it was off screen.

Knew what? Everyone knew all you needed was Dragon's Glass or Valerian Steel to kill a WW. The rest was either left in the books or taken from interviews with the show runners - but nothing in the series gave way to the NK having to be stabbed in a certain way.

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One of the biggest issues with the series for me was LittleFinger giving up Sansa to the Boltons. I could previously *maybe* justify it to LF's desire for chaos to attain the throne or at least more power. But in E4.8, when Sansa Stark is revealed after Lysa Arryn is murdered by LF, and Sansa lies for LF - I think at that point Sansa becomes unmarriable to LF because he is her uncle by marriage. So, since he can't "have" her, he uses her to gain more power and influence by marrying her off to the Boltons.
Bah - but then right after that Sansa comes down the stairs in a dress practically pledging herself to LF.

[cubby]

Episode 5.3 clears up the issue with LF giving Sansa to Ramsay Bolton. He was pairing her with the Boltons to form an alliance with the North, because he essentially owned the Vale. He also clearly says "I don't know much about you" when speaking with Ramsay. So he didn't know what was in store for Sansa. LF married Sansa off as a play towards getting the throne.

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And in Episode 5.4 we hear Jaime tell Bran that the way Jaime wants to die "is in the arms of the woman he loves". More tribute to the idea that Jaime's death in 8.6 was true to his character and not out of sync from the story line.

[cubby]

6.8 sees Jaime completely confirm that all he wants is Cersei. "All I care about is Cersei" speaking to the Tully Lord who was married in the Red Wedding, and threatening to catapult the Tully Lord's baby into the walls if that's what it takes to win. Not sure who thinks Jaime is supposed to turn away from 6 full seasons of consistent behavior.

He also says to Lord Tully "the things we do for love" - which is right back to his beginning.

Jaime returning to Cersei at the end seems completely sound and staying true to his character.

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IMO it would have made more sense had Bran warged into Arya so she knew his weak spot and exactly how to kill him/sneak past the Wights and Walkers. The scene would still have been poor, but at least it 1) gives an explanation as to why her ganking worked besides luck and 2) makes Bran useful as something else than bait for once in his crippled life.

Why is it such a big deal that she snuck past some Whites and Walkers. She's stealthy, we know that, seems.

The Night Kings weakness only existed in the books In the series all it took was Dragon Glass or Valerian Steel.

Not sure how you get to Bran only being bait in the series. He had several pivotal moments throughout the series, especially towards the end.

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Yeah honestly what happened to Daenerys was a complete waste. The funny thing is that I didn't even care about her nor was I fan, but her story was objectively a waste. She didn't even get to sit on that throne, only touch it, 10 years of sacrifices and struggles all for nothing.

But that's the point of it - the tragedy, everything she gave up and she never got what she wanted. I mean, really, the only person who couldn't have the throne was her. Too obvious since she's been after it since almost the beginning.

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I feel like it suffered a lot from GRRM not really having a clear vision that they could follow. They went from pretty much reenacting entire scenes from the books with almost identical dialogue to veering a bit off in s4-6 then to suddenly being in entirely uncharted territory in s7-8, basically working off of rough outlines given to them by George and having to do all the dialogue with their own writers. It showed. It was a recipe for disaster as soon as George stopped releasing the books.

I mostly agree (not about the disaster, of course). But they did have a rich, vibrant source material to work from for the first six seasons. And when that dried up, it certainly showed. D&D knew the ending, probably a solid outline of each main character and those strong secondary ones.

GRRM will probably never release the last two books - which is a real shame. Not sure there was any solution to that problem once HBO started the series going. It couldn't be put on hold, and GRRM is a slow fucking writer. And now he's got multiple projects he's working on, where will he find the time.

[Witchblade77]

littlefinger not being aware of what kind of shitheads Boltons are is bullcrap and betrayal of his character. littlefinger would absolutely know. he was either lying or writers forgot... again.

Jaimie grows past his obsession with cercei. they literally set him up to grow and see beyond her, and even gave him a pivotal moment where he stands up to her and leaves her. CHOSES to leave her. no its not consistent of him to go back to her again. Jaimie, once again, is the person who have chosen to kill the king he has sworn fealty to - to protect people of kings landing, to prevent the very thing that Cercei pulled with the cept.

and once again, i reiterate. writers have chosen to make changes to the characters. writers have chosen to omit entire plotlines, merge multiple characters into a single one, while changing characterization and role of others. and then... they tried to shove the plots on them that would have fit the characters before the changes they made, but NOT after anyways. and it really. REALLY. shows.

[cubby]

littlefinger not being aware of what kind of shitheads Boltons are is bullcrap and betrayal of his character. littlefinger would absolutely know. he was either lying or writers forgot... again.

But LF doesn't know Ramsay in the series - he says as much more than once. He knows Roose Bolton but not his bastard. It explains his actions a little better. Although he could have been lying about knowing about Ramsay to Sansa (in the series he tells someone else, as well, about not knowing much about Ramsay) because he was playing both sides. If the Boltons had won out in the North LF would have been the one who arranged the wedding, and as Lord of the Vale, he would have been a little closer to the throne.

Jaimie grows past his obsession with cercei. they literally set him up to grow and see beyond her, and even gave him a pivotal moment where he stands up to her and leaves her. CHOSES to leave her. no its not consistent of him to go back to her again. Jaimie, once again, is the person who have chosen to kill the king he has sworn fealty to - to protect people of kings landing, to prevent the very thing that Cercei pulled with the cept.

No, he doesn't. He went north to fight the dead because he swore an oath - part of his character. And he went north to fight the dead to protect Cersei. He doesn't "leave" her at all. He goes north because he's keeping his oath. And then he comes back to her - because she is all he's every cared about. Which is 100% confirmed in Episode 6.8.

and once again, i reiterate. writers have chosen to make changes to the characters. writers have chosen to omit entire plotlines, merge multiple characters into a single one, while changing characterization and role of others. and then... they tried to shove the plots on them that would have fit the characters before the changes they made, but NOT after anyways. and it really. REALLY. shows.

And I continue to disagree. Bringing up more and more points and examples showing where you're wrong. I don't see a lot of character deviation so far. And I'm up to Season 7. But again, there is always going to be the issue of series-only vs series/books. There is no way to bring those viewpoints to a head, as they differ so much given how much material was left in the books.

If I may, and I mean this only in a respectful way, you and anyone else who have read the books can't take those impressions away from the series, so it may always be impacting your judgment/opinions in these conversations. I don't mean this as a dig at all, just to be clear, merely an observation.

Even Dany's break - she is wanting to burn the slaver cities to ashes in Season 6 when Meereen is attacked by the Slavers when she is away after being flown out of the arena during that assassination attempt by the Harpy peeps. Tyrion talks her out of it. And that's before she loses everyone she's ever loved.

[Deadite]

Knew what? Everyone knew all you needed was Dragon's Glass or Valerian Steel to kill a WW. The rest was either left in the books or taken from interviews with the show runners - but nothing in the series gave way to the NK having to be stabbed in a certain way.

Have to disagree. The Night King was just a bloke that had a magic crystal stuffed into his chest basically. Bran saw that and that was where Arya stabbed him. All just a coincidence? Guess it could be. Take into account that Valerian Steel is supposedly forged with Dragon Fire and the Night King had previously shrugged off a full blast to the face. Would he have died had he been stabbed somewhere else? Don't know!

I won't touch any other points you go on about as i find them bizarre. The only character in my mind who followed an arc was The Hound.

[cubby]

Have to disagree. The Night King was just a bloke that had a magic crystal stuffed into his chest basically. Bran saw that and that was where Arya stabbed him. All just a coincidence? Guess it could be. Take into account that Valerian Steel is supposedly forged with Dragon Fire and the Night King had previously shrugged off a full blast to the face. Would he have died had he been stabbed somewhere else? Don't know!

I won't touch any other points you go on about as i find them bizarre. The only character in my mind who followed an arc was The Hound.

In the series it was never set out that the NK had to be stabbed in a certain spot. The characters don't know, so the stab spot was almost certainly just a coincidence. It literally had to be since the knowledge didn't exist inside the series arc. The NK dragon fire blast was cool, but that whole point you made, while interesting, was never brought forth in the series.

You don't have to - I find your points about character arcs equally bizarre. Most of them remained true to their arc. And that's before we all take a deep breath and realize the only character arcs that exist are in the series, since the books aren't written and GRRM told D&D the ending(s).

[Berndorf]

I mostly agree (not about the disaster, of course). But they did have a rich, vibrant source material to work from for the first six seasons. And when that dried up, it certainly showed. D&D knew the ending, probably a solid outline of each main character and those strong secondary ones.

GRRM will probably never release the last two books - which is a real shame. Not sure there was any solution to that problem once HBO started the series going. It couldn't be put on hold, and GRRM is a slow fucking writer. And now he's got multiple projects he's working on, where will he find the time.

Agreed except that some main characters had already veered off quite a bit from the books by s6 plus all the characters/storylines that had been omitted by then so it was never going to line up that well regardless. Because the world GRRM has been building up and the manner in which the overall storylines were meant to progress and resolve themselves was already quite different. So I think George probably had a hunch that things were going to start going bad and probably just told them an ending that he wasn't really committed to book wise but they needed a way to end it so he gave them something to work with. I'm not even sure they followed that outline completely either.

[cubby]

Agreed except that some main characters had already veered off quite a bit from the books by s6 plus all the characters/storylines that had been omitted by then so it was never going to line up that well regardless. Because the world GRRM has been building up and the manner in which the overall storylines were meant to progress and resolve themselves was already quite different. So I think George probably had a hunch that things were going to start going bad and probably just told them an ending that he wasn't really committed to book wise but they needed a way to end it so he gave them something to work with. I'm not even sure they followed that outline completely either.

And that's a really good point. At some level the characters almost have to veer because there was so much material in the books, even with a season per book they couldn't cover it all (I mean, they could have, but it would have been insane).

[Jastall]

Why is it such a big deal that she snuck past some Whites and Walkers. She's stealthy, we know that, seems.

The Night Kings weakness only existed in the books In the series all it took was Dragon Glass or Valerian Steel.

Not sure how you get to Bran only being bait in the series. He had several pivotal moments throughout the series, especially towards the end.

We've seen her sneak past Wights. It involved her being extremely quiet and using a favorable environment to avoid a half dozen of them. That's very different from magical ninja running past the entire army, plus the Walkers, to jump out of nowhere at her target which she's never been even close to doing previously. The entire scene is just clumsy as fuck besides the killer soundtrack.

The Night King as he is seen in the show doesn't even exist in the book. It's a legend about the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, we've no idea what the structure or leadership of the Others is. Not sure what your point is there.

[korijenkins]

We've seen her sneak past Wights. It involved her being extremely quiet and using a favorable environment to avoid a half dozen of them. That's very different from magical ninja running past the entire army, plus the Walkers, to jump out of nowhere at her target which she's never been even close to doing previously. The entire scene is just clumsy as fuck besides the killer soundtrack.

The Night King as he is seen in the show doesn't even exist in the book. It's a legend about the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, we've no idea what the structure or leadership of the Others is. Not sure what your point is there.

They tried to imply she jumped from a wall, which would be... physically impossible for her to do given the layout of Winterfell's Godswood.

While some apologists will say "why does it matter in a show about dragons?" it matters because the show established rules early on that grounded it in realism. Get stabbed, you die. Fall from building, die.

The show heavily implied she ran past the walkers, yet is then shown flying through the air. Where exactly she managed to jump from is unknown.

It's frustrating the lengths to which people will go to defend the show, even years later. Sometimes the ending is just half-assed. Better to admit that and be angry at the ass clown showrunners who wanted out to go do a dumb Star Wars project that they got fired from for failing with this ending.