1. #8321
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Excellent.

    Things these "anti-green energy," pro-coal," whatever people need to come to an understanding over is that scientific progress on new forms of energy will be made regardless of whether the United States leads the charge or not. Science doesn't wait for the United States.

    Do they want America to be followers or do they want America to be leaders?

    Personally, I'd rather have the latter, on as many future fronts as possible. Conservatives are all too happy at willfully letting the United States lag behind in important scientific and social channels while the rest of the world simply moves on.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  2. #8322
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Excellent.

    Things these "anti-green energy," pro-coal," whatever people need to come to an understanding over is that scientific progress on new forms of energy will be made regardless of whether the United States leads the charge or not. Science doesn't wait for the United States.

    Do they want America to be followers or do they want America to be leaders?

    Personally, I'd rather have the latter, on as many future fronts as possible. Conservatives are all too happy at willfully letting the United States lag behind in important scientific and social channels while the rest of the world simply moves on.
    Can't help but be reminded of:



    tl;dr:
    "But what do we do with solar power when the sun's not out?!"
    "Build better batteries, idiots. Or else China will sell them to you instead."
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2021-06-14 at 05:20 AM.

  3. #8323
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Can't help but be reminded of:



    tl;dr:
    "But what do we do with solar power when the sun's not out?!"
    "Build better batteries, idiots. Or else China will sell them to you instead."
    "What do we do if the sun's not out?" should be treated like asking "how do I gas up my car if I don't have an oil refinery in my back yard?"

    Also, it's funny how when you start talking about things like wind or nuclear every conservative suddenly becomes a "responsibly concerned environmentalist." "Oh but won't the windmills kill birds? It's far better to bulldoze down forests so we can install a pipeline that will totally never rupture or leak!"

    I'm going to wager far, FAR more species have been, and are going to be, imperiled by gas, oil, and coal pollution, let alone global warming, than will have ever been imperiled by tidal, geothermal, solar, wind, or even nuclear power.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  4. #8324
    Let's be blunt about people who "considered themselves ardent Sinema supporters" - these people are either morons or cynically motivated power seekers. Everything about Sinema's career suggests that she does not have any meaningful views at all, that she's a political chameleon whose only sincerely held position is that she should have more power than she has today. She's a political hack that's spent her entire adult life trying to get into the halls of power and it should be no surprise that she holds whatever position she thinks will continue that power rather than attempting to do anything useful. Anyone that is "shocked" is simply an idiot.

  5. #8325
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    If it weren't automatic, these are literally the types of people that would forget to breathe.
    Would that be such a bad thing...?

  6. #8326
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    "What do we do if the sun's not out?" should be treated like asking "how do I gas up my car if I don't have an oil refinery in my back yard?"
    Incidentally, as sarcastically stupid as that question is, it's still better than "wind turnbines cause cancer and kill birds".

  7. #8327
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Let's be blunt about people who "considered themselves ardent Sinema supporters" - these people are either morons or cynically motivated power seekers. Everything about Sinema's career suggests that she does not have any meaningful views at all, that she's a political chameleon whose only sincerely held position is that she should have more power than she has today. She's a political hack that's spent her entire adult life trying to get into the halls of power and it should be no surprise that she holds whatever position she thinks will continue that power rather than attempting to do anything useful. Anyone that is "shocked" is simply an idiot.
    But, and this is VERY important, she also has a (D) next to her name, which is the only reason we have been able to move anything forward so far. Love her or hate her (most people in the know should hate her, as your analysis of her persona is spot on, at least imo) she helped us get the Senate.

  8. #8328
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But, and this is VERY important, she also has a (D) next to her name, which is the only reason we have been able to move anything forward so far. Love her or hate her (most people in the know should hate her, as your analysis of her persona is spot on, at least imo) she helped us get the Senate.
    Also, that "D" keeps committees in dems control.

  9. #8329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Also, that "D" keeps committees in dems control.
    Exactly.

    Sienna and Manchin are the Dems versions of McCain/Romney/etc.

  10. #8330
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Word is, Reality Winner was just released from federal custody.

    Coincidence it happens now, as a subtle message to Putin and his ratfucking.

  11. #8331
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Exactly.

    Sienna and Manchin are the Dems versions of McCain/Romney/etc.
    No they aren't.. you are horribly mistaken.

    https://projects.propublica.org/repr...inst-party/116

    https://projects.propublica.org/repr...inst-party/116

    Sen. Romney voted against a majority of Senate Republicans 32 times (4.5%) in the 116th Congress (2019-20). He ranks 63rd among all senators in voting against his party. The average Senate Republican voted against his or her party 3.9% of the time.
    Sen. Manchin voted against a majority of Senate Democrats 153 times (25.8%) in the 115th Congress (2017-18). He ranks 1st among all senators in voting against his party. The average Senate Democrat voted against his or her party 8.8% of the time.

    Where the fuck are you guys getting this from?

    He is literally the most contrarian senator in the entire senate that votes against his party the most he isn't a fucking Romeny... HE'S WORSE since he sides with Republicans NEARLY SIX TIMES MORE than Romney does with Democrats.

    And McCain? He voted counter to republicans less than Romney...
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-06-14 at 04:35 PM.

  12. #8332
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    he isn't a fucking Romeny... HE'S WORSE since he sides with Republicans NEARLY SIX TIMES MORE than Romney does with Democrats.
    Amusingly, if we flipped the subjects and we were talking about Romney sticking with Republicans more often that'd be dinged as a negative rather than a positive.

    Manchin sucks, but this tribal, "VOTE THE PARTY EVERY TIME!" stuff is bad, especially if we're not looking towards what they're voting on to help inform us on why they voted a certain way.

    Not sure where the McCain comparisons come into play, McCain wasn't great either and about the only things I can think that he and Manchin have in common is they're white dudes.

  13. #8333
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    No they aren't.. you are horribly mistaken.

    https://projects.propublica.org/repr...inst-party/116

    https://projects.propublica.org/repr...inst-party/116

    Where the fuck are you guys getting this from?

    He is literally the most contrarian senator in the entire senate that votes against his party the most he isn't a fucking Romeny... HE'S WORSE since he sides with Republicans NEARLY SIX TIMES MORE than Romney does with Democrats.

    And McCain? He voted counter to republicans less than Romney...
    I'm just saying he's our version of those people. He's also a (D) and gives us the Senate, and committee and legislative control. He's also a (D) in a relatively conservative area.

  14. #8334
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Also, that "D" keeps committees in dems control.
    This is the only thing that matters, and as much as Manchin is shit Democrats can't lean on him too hard as a result.

    Because the alternative is Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, and I'll take an empty seat that isn't a reliable vote with a Majority Leader Chuck Schumer over a Majority Leader Mitch McConnell any day of the week.

    People don't seem to appreciate just how fucking important control of the Senate is, even if it's only by a fingernail with a 50/50 split with the VP breaking the tie. Those few judges that the Senate is starting to confirm? Yeah, they wouldn't exist with a Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

  15. #8335
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    He is literally the most contrarian senator in the entire senate that votes against his party the most he isn't a fucking Romeny... HE'S WORSE since he sides with Republicans NEARLY SIX TIMES MORE than Romney does with Democrats.
    He's actually the Susan Collins of the Dems.
    https://projects.propublica.org/repr...-susan-collins

    She swiped a Senate Seat from the Dems* but does frequently vote against her party. Of course she never does it when it matters.



    *If the Dems had the Maine seat there's a decent chance Angus King would caucus with the GOP. He's well to the left of them but he believes each state should have someone representing each party.

  16. #8336
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Amusingly, if we flipped the subjects and we were talking about Romney sticking with Republicans more often that'd be dinged as a negative rather than a positive.

    Manchin sucks, but this tribal, "VOTE THE PARTY EVERY TIME!" stuff is bad, especially if we're not looking towards what they're voting on to help inform us on why they voted a certain way.

    Not sure where the McCain comparisons come into play, McCain wasn't great either and about the only things I can think that he and Manchin have in common is they're white dudes.
    Tribalism isn't great but in this case... Manchin has voted along with Republicans at an alarmingly high rate during one of the most ridiculous presidencies we've seen in ages.

  17. #8337
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Tribalism isn't great but in this case... Manchin has voted along with Republicans at an alarmingly high rate during one of the most ridiculous presidencies we've seen in ages.
    Yeah, Manchin is shit. You'll find pretty much no disagreement here, I don't think anyone actually likes Manchin as a Senator. But that's for the people off his state to deal with, and hopefully Democrats will have a few alternatives that are a bit more in-line with what voters want when he's up for his next election.

    But for now he's a useful piece of shit. He (and the 49 other Democratic Senators) give Democrats the most razor thin of majorities, so Democrats can't lean on him too hard even if Republicans aren't going to embrace him with open arms. He's apparently getting quite a bit of dark money so it seems the Koch's and others are trying to use him as a wedge.

    It's shitty because he (and Sinema) are the two biggest offenders in holding the Democrat's legislative priorities hostage, but they can't exactly lean hard on him either because without him (or Sinema, or any other Democrat) they lose the majority. So they have to do what they can until the next election and bust-ass to try to flip a few more seats so they have some room for folks like Manchin/Sinema to be shitty people who still think bipartisanship is possible in the current climate and think that the filibuster is totes protecting Democracy and the tyranny of the majority and not a shitty legacy to systemic, entrenched racism.

  18. #8338
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    This is the only thing that matters, and as much as Manchin is shit Democrats can't lean on him too hard as a result.
    Because the alternative is Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, and I'll take an empty seat that isn't a reliable vote with a Majority Leader Chuck Schumer over a Majority Leader Mitch McConnell any day of the week.
    People don't seem to appreciate just how fucking important control of the Senate is, even if it's only by a fingernail with a 50/50 split with the VP breaking the tie. Those few judges that the Senate is starting to confirm? Yeah, they wouldn't exist with a Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.
    *nods
    Senate Majority leader is the one that prioritizes legislation to get voted on, debated, or even buried.

  19. #8339
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Tribalism isn't great but in this case... Manchin has voted along with Republicans at an alarmingly high rate during one of the most ridiculous presidencies we've seen in ages.
    But Manchin's votes didn't carry any of the legislation that passed - he was never the tie-breaker. So his vote didn't matter for the party, either way. And his constituency is VERY conservative - frankly it's a small miracle a (D) came out of WV at all (I know, I know, Byrd - but you know what I mean) - so him voting that way KEEPS him in his seat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Nice time to drop this in here.
    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell tells @hughhewitt he would not allow President Biden to fill a SCOTUS vacancy in 2024 if he is majority leader.
    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell tells @hughhewitt that keeping Scalia's seat vacant until Gorsuch's 2017 confirmation is "the single most consequential thing I've done in my time as majority leader of the Senate."
    I'd certainly still take someone as shit as Manchin over having this guy again.
    This - THIS - is precisely why Manchin is easily worth putting up with.

  20. #8340
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But Manchin's votes didn't carry any of the legislation that passed - he was never the tie-breaker.
    If true, this is the kind of what I was getting at with knowing what they're voting on. Some of the "moderates" in both parties aren't whipped (man I hate that term in the context of Congress...they really need to overhaul that shit on an institutional level because having a "majority whip" to "whip" votes is like, disturbingly reminiscent of slavery) on various votes because their vote isn't needed one way or the other, so they can vote for their constituency looking towards re-election.

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