Is the Alliance or the Horde the true "family" of World of Warcraft?

[username993720]

I'm going to link this again:



"The noble races of the Alliance are bound together by proud traditions of nobility, honor, faith, justice, and sacrifice.

The many different Alliance peoples all contribute their technical, arcane and spiritual wisdom toward the goal of a peaceful and just world."

Sounds like a family to me.

Meanwhile:

"the proud nations of the horde are loosely joined in an alliance of convenience against a hostile world that would see them destroyed."

Sound like a rag tag bunch of races with similar circumstances being put together.

Let me remind you that you started, before Cataclysm, as neutral with the Forsaken and the Blood elves. And that was due to them being former enemies of the Horde. I don't believe they trust each other much or even share much in common. Heck, the Blood elves considered joining back to the Alliance and the Forsaken betrayed the Horde like twice (Wrathgate and BfA). The only races there that are actually close to each other are the Orcs, Troll and Tauren, whom all were part of WC3 Horde that was bound by shamanistic traditions.

Same as with the Nightborne and, somewhat, the Goblins. Nightborne mostly joined the Horde because they share, practically, the same mentality and lifestyle of Blood elves. They don't seem to be much Hordish with their snob postures and regal manners. Goblins fit the scrappy Horde, but i don't believe they are trusted because they change their allegiance every other day and only care about money. They allied with the Horde after being attacked by the Humans.

Don't let me get started on Huojin Pandaren. First of all, Pandaren allying with the Zandalari is a stretch in itself. Not to talk about the Mogu-like orcs, the evil forsaken, the greedy goblins or the magic-obsessed blood elves - which, are all quite contradictive of Pandaren culture.
Then, when they were recruited they were put in a pit, by Garrosh, and were forced to fight giant monsters to prove their worth to the Horde. At the end of the expansion, their leader literally almost got killed by the Warchief and his forces and yet they are still part of the Horde? beats me...

Vulpera match the Horde on the tribal, primitive level. But, they are too god damn cute, adorable, nice and friendly to be part of the savage Horde with the likes of Orcs, Trolls or Tauren.

The Alliance has no such animosity toward each other. Sure, the recent events kinda shook things off with the Night elves and the Alliance, but despite them being rather different from the light worshipping, human-looking Alliance races, they were still on good terms with them (hence, why you started with friendly reputation with all of the Alliance races).

[Beloren]

I'm going to link this again:



"The noble races of the Alliance are bound together by proud traditions of nobility, honor, faith, justice, and sacrifice.

The many different Alliance peoples all contribute their technical, arcane and spiritual wisdom toward the goal of a peaceful and just world."

Sounds like a family to me.

Meanwhile:

"the proud nations of the horde are loosely joined in an alliance of convenience against a hostile world that would see them destroyed."

Sound like a rag tag bunch of races with similar circumstances being put together.

Let me remind you that you started, before Cataclysm, as neutral with the Forsaken and the Blood elves. And that was due to them being former enemies of the Horde. I don't believe they trust each other much or even share much in common. Heck, the Blood elves considered joining back to the Alliance and the Forsaken betrayed the Horde like twice (Wrathgate and BfA). The only races there that are actually close to each other are the Orcs, Troll and Tauren, whom all were part of WC3 Horde that was bound by shamanistic traditions.

Same as with the Nightborne and, somewhat, the Goblins. Nightborne mostly joined the Horde because they share, practically, the same mentality and lifestyle of Blood elves. They don't seem to be much Hordish with their snob postures and regal manners. Goblins fit the scrappy Horde, but i don't believe they are trusted because they change their allegiance every other day and only care about money. They allied with the Horde after being attacked by the Humans.

Don't let me get started on Huojin Pandaren. First of all, Pandaren allying with the Zandalari is a stretch in itself. Not to talk about the Mogu-like orcs, the evil forsaken, the greedy goblins or the magic-obsessed blood elves - which, are all quite contradictive of Pandaren culture.
Then, when they were recruited they were put in a pit, by Garrosh, and were forced to fight giant monsters to prove their worth to the Horde. At the end of the expansion, their leader literally almost got killed by the Warchief and his forces and yet they are still part of the Horde? beats me...

Vulpera match the Horde on the tribal, primitive level. But, they are too god damn cute, adorable, nice and friendly to be part of the savage Horde with the likes of Orcs, Trolls or Tauren.

The Alliance has no such animosity toward each other. Sure, the recent events kinda shook things off with the Night elves and the Alliance, but despite them being rather different from the light worshipping, human-looking Alliance races, they were still on good terms with them (hence, why you started with friendly reputation with all of the Alliance races).

Pretty much this. As it stands you really have 3 factions, if not 4

the alliance
the orc/troll/tauren horde
the forsaken
the blood elves and nightborne

and goblins are the floaters that just won't flush when you want, so they stick around stinking up the place.

[username993720]

Pretty much this. As it stands you really have 3 factions, if not 4

the alliance
the orc/troll/tauren horde
the forsaken
the blood elves and nightborne

and goblins are the floaters that just won't flush when you want, so they stick around stinking up the place.

I'd say 4 factions, based on WC3 playable factions/Shadowlands covenants:

The Horde (Necrolords) - war centric
The Alliance (Kyrian) - good fellas
Sentinels (Night fae) - nature lovers
Scourge (Venthyr) - evil

[Beloren]

I'd say 4 factions, based on WC3 playable factions/Shadowlands covenants:

The Horde (Necrolords) - war centric
The Alliance (Kyrian) - good fellas
Sentinels (Night fae) - nature lovers
Scourge (Venthyr) - evil

Oh yeah.. basically how they should have done most of wow.

[username993720]

Oh yeah.. basically how they should have done most of wow.

It's more RP possibilities and i believed they hinted at it with the Night elves drifting apart from the Alliance after War of Thorns and the Forsaken drifting away from the Horde after Battle for Lordaeron. And the obvious faction resemblance of covenants.

[Smallfruitbat]

I'd say 4 factions, based on WC3 playable factions/Shadowlands covenants:

The Horde (Necrolords) - war centric
The Alliance (Kyrian) - good fellas
Sentinels (Night fae) - nature lovers
Scourge (Venthyr) - evil

This actually makes sense in terms of alliances. I'm trying to round up a few more of the surviving Night Elves so we can annex ourselves from the Alliance -who else is with me?

[Thundering]

That's certainly the stated intent, but what they show makes all of that pure bullshit. The Alliance formed in response to a demon fueled army of monsters that later expected everyone to just forget about the masses they slaughtered and places they burned.

Outcasts my foot.

Trolls are incredibly xenophobic and have a massive superiority complex, historically attacking on sight and eating any other humanoids. Oddly enough, that doesn't do wonders for their social calendars with other races. Outside the Horde, that largely hasn't changed. Inside the Horde, they merrily go along with every slaughter du jour and just like Orcs, wonder why people fear and hate them. Can't imagine why people would fear and hate serial killers...

Tauren have increasingly been shown to be fools for staying in the Horde, as Cairne is dead and his oath was to Thrall. They're simply thought of as dumb muscle by the Garrosh types. They're judged for going along with the Horde chimp outs, with only Baine ineffectively protesting. (In before the Baine foaming at the mouth hate posts)

Goblins are canonically despised by Azeroth herself for destroying everything they get near. They're not family, they use the rest of the Horde as muscle and meat shields.

Blood Elves are Horde for Kael'thas pouting and blaming the entire Alliance for one jackass human. They've flirted with leaving multiple times because they view the rest of the Horde as barbarians and beasts.

Undead are Horde because Tauren are stupid and thought you can cure death and decomposition. From vanilla onwards, it was made clear the Forsaken are using the Horde for protection, not any real loyalty.

Zandalari are Horde because BfA was a train wreck that was transporting industrial waste.

Pandas are Horde because it was MoP's gimmick. There ought to be stories about pandas conflicted about killing friends and family who chose Alliance, but all logic goes out the window for the idiotic faction divide.

Nightborne are Horde because Thalyssra was lobotomized at the end of Legion and they wanted Horde to have a non Blood Elf model.



The Horde might have been family in WC3 and Thrall era, but now it's composed of races that by all rights should be at each others' throats. In before someone completely fails to understand my point is Blizz SAYS one thing and SHOWS us something else entirely.

Yep this is very true, and this is 1 huge reason to why wow destroyed warcraft lore since Blizzard always been trying to protect the horde due to their own built bias.

[Beloren]

This actually makes sense in terms of alliances. I'm trying to round up a few more of the surviving Night Elves so we can annex ourselves from the Alliance -who else is with me?

@ravenmoon probably

[Saltysquidoon]

"The noble races of the Alliance are bound together by proud traditions of nobility, honor, faith, justice, and sacrifice.

"the proud nations of the horde are loosely joined in an alliance of convenience against a hostile world that would see them destroyed."

Here's my problem with this, it's bad writing (In wow? I know a shocker) that completely ignores the actual history of the world and the factions. It also reads like it was written by (or for) someone who only knows the universe through WoW.

The alliance has always been fractious dickheads, in fact being fractious dickheads with what drove the events of WCII and lead to the events of beyond the dark portal, RoC and TFT.
The entire arc of Thrall's horde in WCIII and vanilla is 'together strong' and 'muh bonds of friendship'. The allies of convenience has always only ever been a flimsy justification for 1. The vanilla devs wanting playable forsaken (to quote 'badass monsters') and 2. The nakedly business decision to boost the horde player base through the elf dollar.

And this is coming from an alliance stan.

[username993720]

This actually makes sense in terms of alliances. I'm trying to round up a few more of the surviving Night Elves so we can annex ourselves from the Alliance -who else is with me?

The Sentinels would be lead by the Night elves, but the Worgen would probably join them (as they are part of the Sentinels themselves and have good relations with them after they accepted them in Teldrassil). The second race i can see joining them is the Pandaren - once close allies of the Night elves and nature lovers (alongside ale) themselves.

Here's my problem with this, it's bad writing (In wow? I know a shocker) that completely ignores the actual history of the world and the factions. It also reads like it was written by (or for) someone who only knows the universe through WoW.

The alliance has always been fractious dickheads, in fact being fractious dickheads with what drove the events of WCII and lead to the events of beyond the dark portal, RoC and TFT.
The entire arc of Thrall's horde in WCIII and vanilla is 'together strong' and 'muh bonds of friendship'. The allies of convenience has always only ever been a flimsy justification for 1. The vanilla devs wanting playable forsaken (to quote 'badass monsters') and 2. The nakedly business decision to boost the horde player base through the elf dollar.

And this is coming from an alliance stan.

I've mentioned that Orcs, Trolls and Tauren have a strong bond. But, that's about it (and constitutes only half of the faction - though, the iconic part of it). Undead, Elves and Goblins aren't part of it.

As for the Alliance, they didn't really have any fracture, except for with the High elves. Dwarves and Gnomes have always been natural allies, as they share a common ancestor (and look humanish). Night elves were always the odd one, but were never received with disdain or hatred by the others. Draenei, although alien, share their faith in the light with the other races of the Alliance. And Worgen, although not be trusted at first after they abandoned the Alliance in the second war and bear a dark curse that turns them into savages, seem to be on friendly terms with both the Night elves and King Anduin.
Dark Irons are the most distant, as they were enemies of the faction for so long. But, apparently, they have made themselves friendly after MoP. Void elves, although dealing with dangerous forces, do not seem to be sinister and evil like a dark elf should. So, while the light-centric Alliance races maybe wary of them, they don't seem to look down upon them.

[Ardenaso]

Completely missed the part where they join the horde because Kael'thas instructs Rommath to instruct Silvermoon to do exactly that, right. horde journey begins because of Kael'thas, should have ended once he was exposed to be a traitor, but can't do that in warcraft.

my former "allies" ignored us for 6 years and left us to rot on our own at the mercy of the Wretched, Amani, and Scourge; we'd prefer to remain with our new allies whom we owe our freedom

[Feanoro]

my former "allies" ignored us for 6 years and left us to rot on our own at the mercy of the Wretched, Amani, and Scourge; we'd prefer to remain with our new allies whom we owe our freedom

Yeah, those allies were twiddling their thumbs with no problems of their own, the selfish bastards!

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Well the Alliance races could use the same argument, reminding the elves that they didn't lift the little finger to help their former allies during their own time of need and that they were the ones who chose to tell their allies who saved them twice, from the Amani Trolls and the Orcs, to fuck off and abandonned them first, and had no problems leaving humans to be slaughtered by the Scouge until they were the ones targeted by the undead onslaught.

[Ardenaso]

Yeah, those allies were twiddling their thumbs with no problems of their own, the selfish bastards!

yes, while they were sending adventurers far and wide from Silithus, Eastern Plaguelands, Stonetalon, and whatnot but for some reason not on Ghostlands which is literally just north of Eastern Plaguelands

[geco]

It's probably been stated before but the miscommunication here is both sides are have a different definition of bias. I will step back as neutral as I can and state what I see for both, based on the better posters here. I'm doing so in a good faith effort, believe that as you will. I won't address aesthetics as that's completely subjective.

Alliance view:
- Horde drives the story, Alliance is along for the ride.
- Horde gets away with atrocities, while Alliance looks like losers and chumps even when they "win".
- Alliance advantages are NEVER used or pressed, e.g. Malfurion's powers or the superior technology.
- Alliance characters end up neutral, working with Horde.
- Horde has superior racials, driving the playerbase there for an advantage.
- Horde benefits from usually being developed first, while Alliance doesn't receive as much dev time.
- Writers have openly stated they 1) don't like writing Alliance, and 2) find writing Alliance races besides humans too hard.

Horde view:
- Horde is always villain batted and loses characters.
- Horde wins battles, never wars. Horde is forced to be divided.
- Horde victories feel hollow because Alliance phones it in, not using their full powers.
- Alliance characters end up neutral, giving Horde orders.
- (No counterpart to racial advantages that I've heard. Maybe "Players feel forced to be Horde when they'd rather not"?)
- (No counterpart to first development that I know of.)
- Writers flip flopped the faction models because they want to write GoT drama with the Horde characters.

Alliance perceives Horde bias in the form of development effort and story focus, a Doylist view. Horde perceives Alliance bias in the form of better story treatment in victories and not losing characters, a Watsonian view.

Can we agree on this much?

May Elune bless you and Brosword take care of your soul.

[qwerty123456]

The Alliance is a normal family where not everyone gets along all the time while the Horde is the type of family where a mom and daughter go around seducing men together then robbing and murdering them.

[Beloren]

The Alliance is a normal family where not everyone gets along all the time while the Horde is the type of family where a mom and daughter go around seducing men together then robbing and murdering them.

Sounds like one of my least favourite horror flicks - the tale of the man hunting murdering banshee - beware her seductive wiles... only death stalks her kisses.

[Feanoro]

yes, while they were sending adventurers far and wide from Silithus, Eastern Plaguelands, Stonetalon, and whatnot but for some reason not on Ghostlands which is literally just north of Eastern Plaguelands

You're not helping the "Blood Elves are selfish, entitled bastards" meme, you know.

My point is the former allies WERE dealing with huge threats, and the BElves had already stomped off in a huff. Unless you have some evidence of them reaching out to the Alliance for help and being rebuffed, there's no argument here. Go play through Classic on Alliance and you'll see they had their hands full.

[ravenmoon]

my former "allies" ignored us for 6 years and left us to rot on our own at the mercy of the Wretched, Amani, and Scourge; we'd prefer to remain with our new allies whom we owe our freedom

From context alone, who do you think is making that statement.. the blood elves in Silvermoon who weren't in that situation? or the very Kael'thas who was and is issuign instructions. Go check the lore. Kael'thas ordered the elves to join the horde. It was his instruction.

[Tanaria]

From context alone, who do you think is making that statement.. the blood elves in Silvermoon who weren't in that situation? or the very Kael'thas who was and is issuign instructions. Go check the lore. Kael'thas ordered the elves to join the horde. It was his instruction.

And the Horde sent allies, whilst Alliance sent hostile spies and infiltrators.

So, joining the Horde was only natural, plus being close to Lordaeron and Sylvanas, it only strengthened the presence of the Horde in the Eastern Kingdoms.

I mean, we get it - you want Blood Elves on the Alliance, yet they along with the Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, Nightborne and Pandaren all share the image of how the Horde should be and currently, Lor'themar is leading the Horde, whilst Thrall and Baine are away.