Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Fugus]

Good luck, explaining to BernieBros how the senate works. How do you undo 5 years of magical thinking? Which may or may not have been negatively reinforced by "the Algorithm".

You really need to take a deep breath and take a few more layers of tinfoil off that hat when it comes to your Sanders Derangement Syndrome.

[shimerra]

Some days I’m relieved you’re Canadian. So much wrong with these ideas just on the basis of the US constitution. I’d say more but I’m at work.

Based on your post history you know about as much as you do about the basics of the US construction as you do about the feasibility and math behind faster than light travel or nuclear engineering. Aka next to 0.

Agree with his opinions or not, I'd swap him for someone like you in a heart beat because at least there'd be some assurance he'd take the time to be minimally informed unlike yourself. I mean this post is demonstration enough when you compare it to his. You should probably be embarrassed a Canadian has a better understanding of the US constitution and government than you do. But you wont be.

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I think people forget that the Dems aren't actually in control and Manchins nonsense holds left-wing policies back. You can argue that Manchin can cross party lines...when the Dems aren't counting on one or two votes to get anything passed. Too much time and effort is being placed in one man who doesn't share values with half the party and willing to drag it down to get his way. His usefulness is margin, the effort used to placate his salty ass doesn't yield half the results the party gets out of it. What would the party lose if Manchin were to go Republican tomorrow? Not a damn thing to be quite honest, not like he was a vote to be counted on anyway. Resources would be better spent preparing to flip vulnerables seats in other places than counting on one wishy washy guy out of WV. Same goes for Sinema.


Numbers don't mean shit if you can't actually use them.

They have been used. Without Manchin the recent COVID stimulus never would have passed as it saw 100% Republican opposition. I'd go on but honestly, I feel it's a wasted effort. Unfortunately due to the nature of the senate, something folks like yourself don't seem to understand, is with such a slim non-majority you can't use your numbers on much even if everyone is in perfect agreement outside of reconciliation and certain appointments. But even the temporary blocking of Republican fucker is massively useful or do you prefer McConnel packing another few dozen life time federal judges which he can't do in part because of the two pseudo Dems that would almost assuredly be replaced by someone who'd vote Republican 100% of the time? That feature alone is worth a lot in the short term.

So thus far your entire rant has fallen flat on its face at the first hurdle. And again at the second. And things aren't looking good for the 3rd hurdle. We haven't even discussed cabinet or judge appointments that Biden can now make. The reality of the world we live in directly conflicts with your assertions. And resources are being spent to flip vulnerable seats. Unless you're dense enough to think that you can't try and persuade Manchin in the mean time while you prepare to try and flip seats to generate a larger majority which is happening. I'd argue that pissing yourself until 2023 and making zero effort to flip Manchin on any issue and only focusing on policy that would take effect in 2023, or potentially later because you seem to forget Dems can lose the senate in 2022, is a worse idea than putting some effort into flipping Manchin to get some things in the mean time and also try to win more seats in 2022.

Even if you want to hand waive away everything I said even you have to admit that Manchin essentially holding right wing policies back, while advancing some minor left wing policies back, is 100% objectively better than zero left wing policies being advanced and some right willing policies advancing.

[Milchshake]

Who saw this one coming?

Correlation of Biden voter and being Covid vaccinated; rate is now at .847.

[PACOX]

I think people forget that Manchin is the reason we can appoint judges and get them confirmed. Or bring up legislation to be voted on. To even be able to use Reconciliation.

Numbers mean a lot when you know what you're talking about.

No one has forgotten you need a majority appointment positions and pass legislation. I'm saying Manchin ain't shit and is replaceable. The narrative that he is some kind of Blue Jesus that that party can't survive about is insane and concerning. Of course the party is stuck with him now but he should treated like the contract your are not going to renew at the end of its term because it ain't shit. What I see is that Dems are afraid of shopping around for better options, instead they will settle for lopsided crappy deal, maybe because they think if they are nice enough they would stop getting tossed around? Manchin is half-assed and only works for the party a quarter of the time, he is a lost but not a substantial one but he hasn't been doing too much for the party anyway.


The party is nuts if they are not exploring other options to work around him. The practically non-existent majority is not sustainable anyway. Manchin's value plummets if the party makes a real grab at the Senate, in which you will wonder why so much was done to kiss his ass and why you are surprised when he switches parties.

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l
Even if you want to hand waive away everything I said even you have to admit that Manchin essentially holding right wing policies back, while advancing some minor left wing policies back, is 100% objectively better than zero left wing policies being advanced and some right willing policies advancing.

Manchin is holding right-wing policy back when the party has to shift to the right to get him to vote? One of his only 'redeeming' values is that he can pull in right-votes out of WV.

[DarkTZeratul]

What would the party lose if Manchin were to go Republican tomorrow?

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

[PACOX]

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

You forget that Schumer and McConnell more or less split the job 60/40?

[cubby]

No one has forgotten you need a majority appointment positions and pass legislation. I'm saying Manchin ain't shit and is replaceable. The narrative that he is some kind of Blue Jesus that that party can't survive about is insane and concerning. Of course the party is stuck with him now but he should treated like the contract your are not going to renew at the end of its term because it ain't shit. What I see is that Dems are afraid of shopping around for better options, instead they will settle for lopsided crappy deal, maybe because they think if they are nice enough they would stop getting tossed around? Manchin is half-assed and only works for the party a quarter of the time, he is a lost but not a substantial one but he hasn't been doing too much for the party anyway.


The party is nuts if they are not exploring other options to work around him. The practically non-existent majority is not sustainable anyway. Manchin's value plummets if the party makes a real grab at the Senate, in which you will wonder why so much was done to kiss his ass and why you are surprised when he switches parties.

You're the first person to mention him as some kind of Blue Jesus (funny term though). My entire point has only been that people shouldn't bitch too much about him, because his (D) is the only reason we can control the agenda. Without him and Sienna we'd have Senate Majority Leader Moscow Mitch.

[Milchshake]

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

A big part of the "dems always Suck" mythos, is ignoring the agency of Mitch McConnell.

[DarkTZeratul]

You forget that Schumer and McConnell more or less split the job 60/40?

Versus the 100/0 split under McConnell, where any Democratic legislation died on his desk and he refused to bring any Democratic nominees to a vote and he openly bragged about grinding the machinery of government to a halt? Where the question he asked wasn't "how do we bring the Democrats on board?" but "how do we do this without requiring the Democrats at all, because we're not even going to invite them to work with us in the first place?"

The current situation is not great, but the alternative is objectively worse in every way.

[shimerra]

You forget that Schumer and McConnell more or less split the job 60/40?

And you seem to for some perplexing reason think that it being McConnell literally 100% is some how better. As well as a complete loss of control over all comities, and the ability for any liberal judge to be put on the bench lost until at least 2023 and possibly beyond.


Most of us aren't saying the current situation is preferred or ideal. But it's a damn sight better than the alternative you've concocted in your head would be.

[PACOX]

Most of us aren't saying the current situation is preferred or ideal. But it's a damn sight better than the alternative you've concocted in your head would be.

What have I concocotted in my head? I argued that the party should not on Manchin or elevate him as if he does much for the party. He is replaceable and the party should jump on any and all opportunities to do so. That's not saying he doesn't come with one or two, it's that he only comes with one or two perks.

Critism towards Manchin is often met with, to paraphrase, "you can't say that because we need him. He is single-handedly holding back McConnell!". He is advantageous but not needed. One man who is replaceable. If the only argument for him is that he is a seat filler so the Dems can hold a 'majority' the he will addressed as such.


I think the need to jump over backwards to defend any criticism thrown his way is telling. No one said to remove Manchin tomorrow, what's been said that he ain't shit.

[Paranoid Android]

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell says it is "highly unlikely" he would let President Biden fill a Supreme Court vacancy in 2024 if GOP wins back Senate https://t.co/aFJPNH12JB

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/stat...627877385?s=19

Holy mother bleep!

McConnel does this a lot, giving out his playbook. If you want to give him credit, this is the signal to the base.

Now jeez, you idiot Dems talking about bipartisanship (cough Manchin and Sinema) and Republicans talking again to freeze out a possible Justice. This time for two years.

The Dems, who refuse to play the game, with Justice Breyerrefusing to retire and if course adding more Justices, which is dead.

[PACOX]

Versus the 100/0 split under McConnell, where any Democratic legislation died on his desk and he refused to bring any Democratic nominees to a vote and he openly bragged about grinding the machinery of government to a halt? Where the question he asked wasn't "how do we bring the Democrats on board?" but "how do we do this without requiring the Democrats at all, because we're not even going to invite them to work with us in the first place?"

The current situation is not great, but the alternative is objectively worse in every way.

McConnell does floor left policies. Manchin doesn't vote for any of them. At least I know McConnell is an enemy, I'm not worried about my own 'teammate' screwing me over as well.

[postman1782]

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/stat...627877385?s=19

Holy mother bleep!

McConnel does this a lot, giving out his playbook. If you want to give him credit, this is the signal to the base.

Now jeez, you idiot Dems talking about bipartisanship (cough Manchin and Sinema) and Republicans talking again to freeze out a possible Justice. This time for two years.

The Dems, who refuse to play the game, with Kagan refusing to retire and if course adding more Justices, which is dead.

Yeah, good luck McConnell, since you forced ACB through, you have no fucking right to stop anything.

[DarkTZeratul]

McConnell does floor left policies.

When? When, exactly, did the self-proclaimed "grim reaper of progressive legislation" floor left policies?

[Edge-]

When? When, exactly, did the self-proclaimed "grim reaper of progressive legislation" floor left policies?

When he knows that Democrats don't have the votes for it and it'll fail, so there's absolutely no risk in the move and it lets him talk about how he brings bills from both parties to a vote and it's just that those Democrat ones are unpopular!

[shimerra]

What have I concocotted in my head? I argued that the party should not on Manchin or elevate him as if he does much for the party. He is replaceable and the party should jump on any and all opportunities to do so. That's not saying he doesn't come with one or two, it's that he only comes with one or two perks.

Critism towards Manchin is often met with, to paraphrase, "you can't say that because we need him. He is single-handedly holding back McConnell!". He is advantageous but not needed. One man who is replaceable. If the only argument for him is that he is a seat filler so the Dems can hold a 'majority' the he will addressed as such.


I think the need to jump over backwards to defend any criticism thrown his way is telling. No one said to remove Manchin tomorrow, what's been said that he ain't shit.

Then you phrased that absolutely miserably and your criticism basically amounted to a bunch of pointless winging about shit people already knew while claiming the clear downsides to Manchin being a Republican didn't exist. Especially with your multiple comments that basically ignore/handwave quite a few of the useful things his seat has provided. The one about "focusing too much on Manchin instead of vulnerable seats" as is literally fucking every DNC campaigner isn't trying to do exactly that and ignores that fact that any intelligent person would clearly focus on both.

Literally no one in here elevated him. And you're perfectly willing to bend over backwards to post nonsense like this:

What would the party lose if Manchin were to go Republican tomorrow? Not a damn thing to be quite honest, not like he was a vote to be counted on anyway. Resources would be better spent preparing to flip vulnerable seats in other places than counting on one wishy washy guy out of WV.

Which unless you're particularly stupid, and you doubled down on it in later posts, making McConnel Majority leader is an objectively worse feature than having to move to the right on some issues but still see some advancement leftward. Like it's not hard to see that. If you'd like I can get the crayon and coloring book out to point out the rest, but you're bending over backwards to ignore any positives you're hardly better than the imaginary people calling Manchin Blue Jesus.

Again if Manchin were to flip R, or any other dem if you wish to get the focus off him, there would not be a single liberal justice on the bench until a minimum of 2023 and possibly even longer. That makes his, and all Dems seats, very important. But his particularly so because if you hate him you'll hate 99.99% of whoever WV puts out even more.

There's plenty to criticize him for. Some of us just don't need to lie about the positives like you seem to need to or downplay the positives because he's been an overall pita blocking leftwing policies and advancing less then we'd like. I for one wont downplay the keeping control out of McConnels hand's for a second considering in his time as Majority leader he has done far more damage to left wing policies with his reworking of the Supreme court and Judiciary. That damage will last for decades and will outlast anything Manchin can ever do to hamstring left-wing efforts. Manchin is a small price to pay to take that power away while we try and build a larger majority.

Assuming Themus's numbers are correct it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that flipping 75% in your favor to 25% in your favor is an objectively bad thing and your efforts to get people to see the light on Manchin just end up coming across as ignoring reality.

[Omega10]

People take action when it becomes clear their political leaders won't or can't.

That's the big problem, right now; American democracy is under direct and systemic assault by Republicans, and everyone else can either dick around trying to play "nice" with an enemy that will shank them for half of two-day-old sandwich, or they can get serious about taking actual fucking action against the architects of that assault.

In this context, that means strong prosecutorial efforts against anyone who supported the Jan 6 insurrection. For starters. I mean anyone who ever pushed a supportive tweet, anyone who ever suggested it was Antifa there not Republicans, anyone who ever supported the motives behind it, any of that. One tweet, and that should be all that's needed for a conviction for Rebellion or Insurrection under the law, under the "giving aid or comfort" clause of that law.

A tweet's not a huge deal. I'm not saying you Tweeted out a "woo, go patriots" at the white supremacist dingbats on Jan 6, so you should go to prison for 10 years, here. Just that you should get a felony conviction, and that last little clause there should apply; barred from holding any office in the federal government, ever again in your life. If it's just a tweet, no fine, no jail time. Just a felony record and a GTFO stamp on your file.

That's a bare-minimum start.

I have to hope that the Biden DOJ is just getting all their ducks in a row to get their first Insurrection conviction on someone, so they can snowball those convictions through by the precedent it sets, but the snail's pace of prosecutions doesn't make me feel strongly that this is the case. And if it isn't, if people like Lauren Boebert aren't going to face criminal convictions for their actions, then the law doesn't matter and the USA is well past the tipping point and it's probably not even possible to save the country. It's already too deeply, hopelessly corrupt to be salvaged, as it stands, if that's the case. Its legal system would rather slaughter innocent black citizens and prosecute people caught with a joint in their pockets than actual armed insurrection against the federal government, and the worst attack on the Capitol since 1812.

This 100%. The details can be a bit different, but the idea has to be true to what you wrote here.

[Bodakane]

Who said anything about undoing all McConnell's work? It's about preventing him from continuing that work and slowly working to push back by appointing more neutral/progressive nominees to openings instead of the short-list from the Heritage Foundation/Federalist Society.



Except not? Neither one of those has anything to do with federal judges confirmed to their respective benches. I'm not even sure how you'd connect the two.



I'm not wearing blinders and focusing only two (important) issues at the expense of everything else, actually.



No, y'all just saw that the battle for real control was lost and are out here talking about how the war is lost and we need to go to X or Y extreme or some shit.

It's a limited victory, but taking control of the Senate away from the Republicans is a HUGE step forward. Sure, it may not deliver everything we/Democrats/progressives hope for, but it's a big step forward that y'all pretend is meaningless.



Cool, and reform takes a big majority. Hopefully Democrats will somehow get it come 2022, but it's more likely they either hold their "majority" or gain/lose a few seats. If they gain a few great, but that won't even be enough for big reform like you're talking about. You need a lot more than a few seat majority to push these kinds of reforms, and Republicans aren't going to sign on board with any of them.

You think that what is an extremely challenging task is just so easy if it weren't for that darned Manchin. Or at least that's what it sure consistently seems like.

You don't understand.

Without voter protections and filibuster reform, they will take control of Senate and lessen or take the House. We didn't;'t take enough control away to make the future fair. They are set up sweet going forward. They will lie and cheat their way to power and we can't stop them from doing it, because this wafer thin majority you guys are creaming your jeans over is weak.

[Omega10]

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell says it is "highly unlikely" he would let President Biden fill a Supreme Court vacancy in 2024 if GOP wins back Senate https://t.co/aFJPNH12JB

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/stat...627877385?s=19

Holy mother bleep!

McConnel does this a lot, giving out his playbook. If you want to give him credit, this is the signal to the base.

Now jeez, you idiot Dems talking about bipartisanship (cough Manchin and Sinema) and Republicans talking again to freeze out a possible Justice. This time for two years.

The Dems, who refuse to play the game, with Justice Breyerrefusing to retire and if course adding more Justices, which is dead.

Of course he is advertising this. This will HUGELY enhance republican turn out, and democrats will barely notice. It's obvious that this is what he would do, but his announcing is a very strong political statement geared towards republicans winning the 2022 elections.