1. #1701
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Purchasing any sort of advantage is winning.

    Nobody here is complaining and attacking Blizzard for the wow token. So why do you get so pissed off and feel the need to lash out?

    We're only stating facts here.
    No, it is not. Are you purposely being glib?

    You purchase a subscription, you purchase items from the auction house, you purchase items from other players, you used to be able to purchase items with dkp systems if your guild ran those. Like... that is what the game is about.

    It's mindboggling that you think gold, can lead you to "win" anything in wow. Because one thing gold can't give you, is skill.

    Pay to win, the term in MMOs is typically only meant towards monetization of the cash shop resulting in direct power gains over top players. Which NOTHING in Blizzard's cash shop does that. Literally fucking nothing. So yeah, it's very fucking annoying that you don't even understand the basic argument going on, yet feel the need to reply stating incorrect facts repeatedly.

  2. #1702
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    So true...Why is this too hard to understand?
    Because with all the gear in the game you still haven't won the game, why is that hard to understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Which NOTHING in Blizzard's cash shop does that.
    Yes there is: The Token and The Boost.
    Nothing you can get with the token will make you MORE powerful than top players

    and if the player is shit they won't even be AS POWERFUL as top players lol
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  3. #1703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Give me, right now you definition of Pay To Win.
    I have given it to you many times. Paying for an advantage of power. The level boost Blizzard sells is an example even though the power is not relevant to end game. Tokens are not buying power because you are buying gold. Wins obtained through gold rely on players and is not a direct cash transaction and gold is not a currency just for buying power.

    If the gold from the token was generated by Blizzard it would change things. If the win was provided by Blizzard it would change things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Everything, you consider important in the game is a win.
    So if I consider logging into the game as a win then any game I log into is pay to win? That is silly. The definition of win in pay to win is not something that is subjective or changes based on the individuals goals.
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  4. #1704
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Because the definition of "WIN" is being set by players. For some people is the achievement, others Power in terms of higher item level, other people like collectibles....etc.

    What is a win for you?
    Nothing lol, nothing in wow would make me feel like I won wow.

    Provide example of this...?
    No matter how much gold people buy their peak power is no greater than the best players peak power because there isn't like 'Super cash shop gear' that is better than in game gear.
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  5. #1705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    The gold is provided to you by Blizzard, with a transaction created by Blizzard, where you had to pay Blizzard real money to get that gold.
    You do not understand the token. The gold from the token is provided by players and not blizzard. The transaction is between two players a token for gold. Blizzard provides the token for a $5 transaction fee. You pay Blizzard $5 and are paying the player $15. Because that is the value of the token. If you are broke you are not even able to subscribe to the game. So either way you won't be able to get yourself anything game related. The game is behind a pay wall. Gold is not behind a pay wall of the token because you are free to earn gold yourself. Just like those who provide gold for the token do.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  6. #1706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    This is trolling, because considering logging into the game is not a pay to win. I paid my access to the server like everyone else. Is already clear, that is a requirement, in order to play WoW.
    So a win is not defined by the individual player? Make up your mind. Can the individual define what is a win for them or is the definition of the win a non-subjective one?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    The gold provided to you, comes from Blizzard. You paid them Money, they send you an email with the gold attached, and the other player gets Game Time. The Transaction is being facilitated by Blizzard, created by Blizzard and set by Blizzard to earn Cash from Players. You paid cash to Blizzard to get gold = P2W.
    So why does a player have to buy the token with gold if Blizzard provides the gold? Gold comes in an e-mail now? How do I get the gold from g-mail into the game? The token only gets you gold when you list in on the Auction House and the gold comes from another player just like any other AH transaction.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #1708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Its an MMO, players choose what they want to accomplish
    Unless that accomplishment is logging on. You exclude that from being a win so it isn't up to the player to choose what they want to accomplish. You can't have it both ways just because you don't like a potential individual goal for a player. That is the problem when you subjective define something like "Pay to Win". And the reason why the definition of win is important and excludes things.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #1709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Pay Blizzard Cash, Blizzard Gives you GOld =P2W
    Blizzard doesn't give you the gold. A player purchasing your token gives you the gold. If no player buys the token no gold will be given to you. Also it isn't trolling if you actually used e-mail. I was asking you to clarify your remarks. Because you might actually believe it comes from an e-mail since Blizzard does send out confirmation e-mails when redeeming tokens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Service = Game Time, Race Change, Faction Change...etc
    The token is game time so you already don't define it correctly. Stop giving definitions that you yourself don't even follow.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #1710
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How is that a dodge? You don't win anything by having a mount. You don't win anything by having transmog. If a win is subjective to the individual then logging into the game can be defined as a win. Which means WoW has always been pay to win and renders any use of the term "Pay to Win" silly. Because if everything is pay to win then nothing is.
    Again a reply and again no definition of what "Winning" is in a MMORPG, to you. Another dodge. Amazing!

  11. #1711
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    They can't define what would constitute a "win" in an MMO because it would become immediately apparent that whatever it was could be purchased with gold. Unless they say "the friends I made along the way"

    So, of course they're gonna dodge.
    To be fair, it's very difficult to state what a definitive win means in a MMORPG because there are so many types of goals that the players can persue and achieve.

    It's just very entertaining to see those that insist that "X isn't Winning" squirm so hard at not being able to declare what a Win is, lest their intellectual dishonesty show it's ugly head.

  12. #1712
    You can buy gold.
    Gold can buy anything.

    Yes this game is p2w.
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  13. #1713
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    If nothing is important to you.
    Something being important to me doesn't also require me to feel like I've won when I've accomplished it.
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  14. #1714
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What power do you get from having gold? Does 1 g translate to 1 item level? The cash doesn't let you purchase any power. The gold does.

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    How is that a dodge? You don't win anything by having a mount. You don't win anything by having transmog. If a win is subjective to the individual then logging into the game can be defined as a win. Which means WoW has always been pay to win and renders any use of the term "Pay to Win" silly. Because if everything is pay to win then nothing is.
    Don't know what to tell you. Cash gets me power, directly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    No, it is not. Are you purposely being glib?

    You purchase a subscription, you purchase items from the auction house, you purchase items from other players, you used to be able to purchase items with dkp systems if your guild ran those. Like... that is what the game is about.

    It's mindboggling that you think gold, can lead you to "win" anything in wow. Because one thing gold can't give you, is skill.

    Pay to win, the term in MMOs is typically only meant towards monetization of the cash shop resulting in direct power gains over top players. Which NOTHING in Blizzard's cash shop does that. Literally fucking nothing. So yeah, it's very fucking annoying that you don't even understand the basic argument going on, yet feel the need to reply stating incorrect facts repeatedly.
    Factually speaking, I am using cash to buy gold to buy power.

  15. #1715
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    for me I still think its hilarious that people equate having good gear from being carried is pay to win.. you can't make this up, the thread is 97 pages long and people just can't understand that a game they havent even played for 10 years is still better than they are

    Go back to Final Fantasy 14 Remastered or whatever its called lol
    Realm Reborn is the tag for the new version of FFXIV, just wanted to say, I experienced it before the rebirth, and witnessed horrors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Give me, right now you definition of Pay To Win.
    Purchase of advantage directly from the developer. The only thing classifying in that category, if time is an advantage, is the boost (It is a huge stretch for me, but the part I'm willing to agree on, as some people are not as good with managing time).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Before boost, people used to grind. I don't remember, since it was years ago, but i remember The Stockades being a good place to farm XP to reach high level. Also people used Deadmines. idk really....there used to be so many methods to grind, but that was time consuming and a long process. Now you can slip the Credit Card and get it instantly, or just play the game for hours or days and get it. Is still pay to win to use the boost.
    Funny, in the old days, Stockades, Deadmines, Shadowfang Keep, and the Scarlet dungeons were some of the most used dungeons for boosting. Back then, a lot of gold though was either more braindead grinding than today or by breaking ToS.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  16. #1716

    uh

    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    Yes, it is.
    1) You can use $$$ to buy a token which is equal to WOW gold.
    2) WOW gold can buy you: BOE gear and boosts (more gear).
    You can basically use $$$ to buy raid achieves (AOTC, KSM) and gear now.
    Blizz does nothing to stop the boosting because it drives token sales (goto line 1)
    Pay 2 win strictly means that in order to win you must pay real money. In games you can't actually win like MMORPG, in order to meet end game content and be able to play on par with other people means you have to pay real money or it wont be something you can do without carries. Which is false. People pay money where they don't need to because they suck or are lazy.

  17. #1717
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    You can buy gold.
    Gold can buy anything.

    Yes this game is p2w.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Correct: Anything from the AH and Players
    Wait wait wait... You said correct to the top comment (I know he's banned) even though that is false?

    It is factually false.

    You buy GAME-TIME
    You trade GAME-TIME
    you earn GOLD

    You do not buy the gold.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  18. #1718
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    That is up to you.
    That's what I've been saying this entire time lol, what is and isn't P2W and what is and isn't acceptable once agreed that something IS p2w is an opinion and that's why this discussion is pointless because everyones opinion of it is different and no ones stance is going to change.
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  19. #1719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Factually speaking, I am using cash to buy gold to buy power.
    Factually speaking, you are using cash to buy game-time, to trade for gold, to earn gold, to then trade for a chance of power.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  20. #1720
    Pay to win is when you have to pay real money to be on par and play with others at end game content. Which is not WoW. People pay money for carries and gear and gold because for the majority , 1 Suck at the game and are not competent or they are just lazy. Might have alts, might be really busy and can afford it. Since you can earn your own gear and reputation and gold and everything WoW is not pay 2 win because it offers things to players that cost real money.

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