From now on and during 2 weeks avoid pugging HC dungeons

[RobertoLarcos]

So until now it was a good time to pug HC dungeons.

Players pugging dungeons were quite good, all the groups I got into were from good guilds in the server. This is because doing HC require revered and players already attuned were the ones putting in the effort and the time so they were skilled and knowledgeable.

However, right now the average andy has hit revered and is doing hc dungeons in questing gear without a clue of what he is doing.

Best avoid pugging HC dungeons for a couple of weeks till average andys get some badge gear and kara gear and they start outgearing the dungeons

A couple of hints to see if you are in an andy group:

1- The group composition is messed up, like having 1 fury warrior and 1 retry paladin in the group, or 2 shadowpriests, or a retry paladin in general.

2- Members of the group don't eat food between pulls and expect the healer to top them off instead of eating.

Feel free to add more hints.

[Prag]

I don’t think the generalization is needed but I get the sentiment.

A better practice is to just add decent players you know/pug with that do well, and use process of elimination: guild > friends > Russian roulette with pugs.

Or just have a throwaway Discord server for pug groups and require its use (even if just to listen). If you don’t know the pulls well enough to explain them, it’s a sign you’re also an average Andy with good friends/guild mates. Most people can execute well if they know what to do, at least to the degree of complexity that is TBC HC and classes.

[Gamingsince1981]

Whats a retry paladin ?

[Prag]

Whats a retry paladin ?

“I didn’t out-DPS the tank, let me try again”

[arkanon]

Whats a retry paladin ?

Ret - A Retribution Paladin.

Just people getting upset that their pugs are not a perfect group of meta P-Server players who have all available BiS gear. You need to understand that heroic dungeons are EXTREMELY serious business for some of these players.

[Holyseizure]

Whats a retry paladin ?

Regularly top damage in my heroic groups as ret unless there is a lock seeding. I do have Lionheart Champion though...

[Sting]

Good take & solid advice

[DazManianDevil]

Ret - A Retribution Paladin.

Just people getting upset that their pugs are not a perfect group of meta P-Server players who have all available BiS gear. You need to understand that heroic dungeons are EXTREMELY serious business for some of these players.

If this thread was about M+ in the first 2 weeks of a season there would be an outcry of elitism bashing.
"Don't do any keys if there's an off meta spec" etc
I haven't bothered to hit 70 yet, these heroics can't be as hard as pre-nerf cata dungeons right?

[Bigbazz]

There is literally nothing wrong with a Ret Paladin, they bring really good buffs and do good dps when played right. Fury Warriors need an enhancement shaman or above average gear due to their rage mechanic, Rogues similar but they have some more mob control.. Every spec is completely capable in heroics, the issue comes when you combine the wrong classes, resulting in no synergy or CC.

[Vampyrr]

If this thread was about M+ in the first 2 weeks of a season there would be an outcry of elitism bashing.
"Don't do any keys if there's an off meta spec" etc
I haven't bothered to hit 70 yet, these heroics can't be as hard as pre-nerf cata dungeons right?

Well BC dungeons were some of the hardest dungeons of any expac before they were adjusted. Cata dungeons were hard but not micro manage min max hard. I remember some dungeons taking HOURS to do especially early on for attunements. I do not recall any such nonsense with cata when it was current. Hard yes but overtuned no.

[arkanon]

If this thread was about M+ in the first 2 weeks of a season there would be an outcry of elitism bashing.
"Don't do any keys if there's an off meta spec" etc
I haven't bothered to hit 70 yet, these heroics can't be as hard as pre-nerf cata dungeons right?

Depending on gear, they could feel about the same. Mechanically, not even close, but things hit pretty hard if people havnt reached caps etc, and you may be forced to go a little slower if your dps is lower thane expected. If you join a random pug, just like for ANY content in ANY version of the game, you get what you get and should roll with the punches. If you have a strong expectation for the dungeon, for example wanting to farm quickly and have highly geared players, the same solution exists in all versions of the game too - form your own group and make your expectations clear.

[Sting]

If this thread was about M+ in the first 2 weeks of a season there would be an outcry of elitism bashing.
"Don't do any keys if there's an off meta spec" etc
I haven't bothered to hit 70 yet, these heroics can't be as hard as pre-nerf cata dungeons right?

Most are pretty easy, blood furnace is the only one where I would advice using hard cc even with a good group

[oplawlz]

If this thread was about M+ in the first 2 weeks of a season there would be an outcry of elitism bashing.
"Don't do any keys if there's an off meta spec" etc
I haven't bothered to hit 70 yet, these heroics can't be as hard as pre-nerf cata dungeons right?

Nah, they're pretty easy if you know basic mmo mechanics. I guess if you're an impatient douche they can be pretty taxing though.

[arkanon]

Nah, they're pretty easy if you know basic mmo mechanics. I guess if you're an impatient douche they can be pretty taxing though.

The "difficulty" comes when you have some players just doing some casual heroics for fun, mixed with some diehard people playing all day and night since launch with a completely min/maxed character hoping to complete all heroics in a few hours. Neither party is right, nor wrong, but they do not mix well. This is not a new "problem".

[oplawlz]

TBC Heroics. Nothing hard. Had to have run them thousands of times as a tank in the past.

If people think they are too hard, well, that's a strange thing. Did people forget how to play?

(The real problem is the tryhards.)

If you read between the lines the Op is basically saying any run that isn't done in 20 minutes is a horrible failure. I mean eating between pulls, really?

[arkanon]

If you read between the lines the Op is basically saying any run that isn't done in 20 minutes is a horrible failure. I mean eating between pulls, really?

You cant win with some people to be fair. I was in a run on the weekend where the healer got angry at the tank for stopping to eat/drink between pulls - "ill keep you topped up bro just hurry up" but in the same run, got angry at a warlock for tapping, and yelling at the mage for not drinking between trash pulls and doing low dps on some pulls due to going oom.

[kail]

Regularly top damage in my heroic groups as ret unless there is a lock seeding. I do have Lionheart Champion though...

Seen one tear up the meters with his pocket enhance shaman.

[Tyris Flare]

There is literally nothing wrong with a Ret Paladin, they bring really good buffs and do good dps when played right. Fury Warriors need an enhancement shaman or above average gear due to their rage mechanic, Rogues similar but they have some more mob control.. Every spec is completely capable in heroics, the issue comes when you combine the wrong classes, resulting in no synergy or CC.

I admit I chuckled at "played right" when the class is almost entirely auto-attacking

[Saltysquidoon]

Well BC dungeons were some of the hardest dungeons of any expac before they were adjusted. Cata dungeons were hard but not micro manage min max hard. I remember some dungeons taking HOURS to do especially early on for attunements. I do not recall any such nonsense with cata when it was current. Hard yes but overtuned no.

IDK man you had shit ozruk needing ranged classes without dots to physically auto him or the ettin having an ability combo that could one-shot the tank (or even just the stun flame arrow rng), hell Edrudax springs to mind as one of the tightest dps checks in a 5man basically ever (now I think about it pre nerf erudax was probably the tightest 5man dps check ever accounting for gear availability).
By comparison, TBC heroics have trash that white hits too hard if you don't bring correct CC comps.

I feel like the only reason the cata heroics aren't remembered with the same infamy as the TBC ones is a mixture of the gutting, nostalgia, better-designed classes and better optimised gear.
I expect quite opposite from the OP once more TBC classic players start getting them on farm the myth of TBC heroics will be shattered as fast as 'hardcore vanilla' was when nef died in 42 minutes.

[arkanon]

IDK man you had shit ozruk needing ranged classes without dots to physically auto him or the ettin having an ability combo that could one-shot the tank (or even just the stun flame arrow rng), hell Edrudax springs to mind as one of the tightest dps checks in a 5man basically ever (now I think about it pre nerf erudax was probably the tightest 5man dps check ever accounting for gear availability).
By comparison, TBC heroics have trash that white hits too hard if you don't bring correct CC comps.

I feel like the only reason the cata heroics aren't remembered with the same infamy as the TBC ones is a mixture of the gutting, nostalgia, better-designed classes and better optimised gear.
I expect quite opposite from the OP once more TBC classic players start getting them on farm the myth of TBC heroics will be shattered as fast as 'hardcore vanilla' was when nef died in 42 minutes.

You know whats weird? I have said this a few times, but when cata launched, i played almost exclusively with a tight guild and group of friends. We didnt really frequent any forums or "communities" and were entirely unaware of any drama over the cata difficulty. We had a LOT of fun doing them early in cata, and it wasnt until Blizzard officially acknowledged the 'situation' that we were made aware that for many, they were "too hard".