1. #27421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    We've seen her sneak past Wights. It involved her being extremely quiet and using a favorable environment to avoid a half dozen of them. That's very different from magical ninja running past the entire army, plus the Walkers, to jump out of nowhere at her target which she's never been even close to doing previously. The entire scene is just clumsy as fuck besides the killer soundtrack.
    Which means she can do it. And you're confirming that she can. So she can sneak and she can jump. Not much too it. You're literally saying she can't do it and immediately after explaining precisely why she can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The Night King as he is seen in the show doesn't even exist in the book. It's a legend about the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, we've no idea what the structure or leadership of the Others is. Not sure what your point is there.
    Because people bitch and moan about "how could Arya know the NK weak spot" when it literally doesn't exist in the series. That's the entire point, which you just bolstered. Her killing of the NK is just using a "cool" move, which had already been shown, to kill the head WW with valerian steel. There is nothing more to that kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    They tried to imply she jumped from a wall, which would be... physically impossible for her to do given the layout of Winterfell's Godswood.
    Could have jumped from a cart. If you look at the scene, she doesn't really even come in from that high.

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    While some apologists will say "why does it matter in a show about dragons?" it matters because the show established rules early on that grounded it in realism. Get stabbed, you die. Fall from building, die.
    You mean like Bran? Like Sansa/Theon? They aren't apologists, they are people trying to explain to haters why their points suggesting a "bad" ending aren't entirely correct. Or at least "grounded in reality".

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    The show heavily implied she ran past the walkers, yet is then shown flying through the air. Where exactly she managed to jump from is unknown.
    She got passed through stealth and jumped. Stop reading too much into the scene - they literally don't explain it, so enjoy or don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    It's frustrating the lengths to which people will go to defend the show, even years later. Sometimes the ending is just half-assed. Better to admit that and be angry at the ass clown showrunners who wanted out to go do a dumb Star Wars project that they got fired from for failing with this ending.
    It's frustrating the lengths at which haters will continue to shit all over a great show with a terrific ending.
    Love that you think they got fired from the Star Wars project. Let us know when you're ready for reality. I swear, some of the GOT-ending haters sound just like Trump supporters with their lying and twisting of facts.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-06-15 at 01:04 AM.

  2. #27422
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Which means she can do it. And you're confirming that she can. So she can sneak and she can jump. Not much too it. You're literally saying she can't do it and immediately after explaining precisely why she can.



    Because people bitch and moan about "how could Arya know the NK weak spot" when it literally doesn't exist in the series. That's the entire point, which you just bolstered.
    You're being intentionally reductive. The point is that she can do it but not easily, she has to be cautious and use the environment to her advantage. She doesn't do that when assassinating the Night King, just jump from somewhere over the literal entire army surrounding the dude. She was shown to be adept at stealth, not to be a WoW Rogue who vanishes in thin air, much like, say, Jon being adept at fighting doesn't mean he could suddenly take an undead dragon head-on. One character was limited by his known skillset, the other was given superpowers so the plot could move along.

    They literally said in a behind the scenes that the King only died because he got stabbed at the right spot using the right material- at least one of these things Arya had no possible way to know or was told offscreen which is just as bad. You'll say that wasn't mentioned in the series itself, true, which only helps my point- that the entire scene was botched from start to finish, again aside from the great soundtrack.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  3. #27423
    It's 2021, folks. Go home.

  4. #27424
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    (rereading this I seem to repeat myself a lot - sorry about that)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    You're being intentionally reductive. The point is that she can do it but not easily, she has to be cautious and use the environment to her advantage. She doesn't do that when assassinating the Night King, just jump from somewhere over the literal entire army surrounding the dude. She was shown to be adept at stealth, not to be a WoW Rogue who vanishes in thin air, much like, say, Jon being adept at fighting doesn't mean he could suddenly take an undead dragon head-on. One character was limited by his known skillset, the other was given superpowers so the plot could move along.
    Nice word. But no, I'm not. You're just reading WAY too much into the scene. She had the skills, she was a great choice for the kill (what do we say to death), and they forecasted the move in a previous episode.
    Arya killing the NK was NOT a superpower - not sure where you got that idea, at all.

    Edit: let me put it another way. Arya's kill on the NK is justified by her knowledge only within the series. She could stealth. She could jump. She had that wicked move in the spar with Brienne. Within the knowledge from the series itself, Arya's kill of the NK makes sense. However, you have knowledge outside the series - interviews and book. That knowledge is impacting your view of the scene, because you know more than the characters do. So the NK kill scene is at least irritating to you because of that knowledge, which is outside the knowledge of the series characters. Not sure that helps explain better what I'm getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    They literally said in a behind the scenes that the King only died because he got stabbed at the right spot using the right material- at least one of these things Arya had no possible way to know or was told offscreen which is just as bad. You'll say that wasn't mentioned in the series itself, true, which only helps my point- that the entire scene was botched from start to finish, again aside from the great soundtrack.
    Literally, behind the scenes. So no character knew about it, so the location didn't matter. The scene was fantastic. You don't have to like it, but don't read more into it than was there or provided.

    Not being mentioned in the series is a point in my favor, not yours. The kill stroke was a coincidence - that you and those who know info outside the series are reading into it, rather than just the simple facts that happened. Recall - Arya's fight with Brienne where Arya did that move, exactly, previously. That's where it comes from, not from some unwritten, unknown, special kill move for the NK - which didn't even exist in the books.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-06-15 at 02:24 AM.

  5. #27425
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    In a way, I’m not bothered by Jamie dying with Cersei, even if I didn’t like how their deaths happened. He was always known as the Kingslayer, which was a negative thing because he was viewed as a traitor and his reputation was basically ruined, even in The Book of Brothers, where his page was torn out (can’t remember). Brienne changed that, and he became known as savior, who died protecting his Queen till the very end, as well as listing all his other accomplishments.

    He had his moments, but guy did do some good deeds… like saving thousands from The Mad King. Him dying to a Targaryen while trying to save the Queen, kinda makes up for killing a King… at least in the eyes of the people, who didn’t know the real truth.
    his reputation was ruined, yes. by his chose because he chose personal honor and protecting people even if it meant breaking his oath to the kind. Jamie has always been an honorable person. my problem with him going back to Cercei is that regardless of what people thought they knew about him, it didn't fit Jamie as a character we are gradually shown. him going back to Cercei fits public's perception of him. it does not fit him as an actual person that very few people get to know (like Brienne for one, or his brother Tyrion)

    @cubby.. you keep misunderstanding what i'm saying. the fact that characters in a show are DIFFERENT from characters in the books and yet given the same exact story bits that were planned for the books is part of the problem. its exactly THE problem. they should have been treated as their own characters the moment they started deviating from their book portrayals... but they were not. and that's why there is so much of a disconnect. that's why their actions do not gel.

    and Littlefinger knowing what Roose Bolton is like and still having no inkling that Ramsey, his bastard and someone who wants to be his heir and is very motivated to impresses Roose - may not be a nice person is making Littlefinger look dumber than he is supposed to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post

    It's frustrating the lengths at which haters will continue to shit all over a great show with a terrific ending.
    Love that you think they got fired from the Star Wars project. Let us know when you're ready for reality. I swear, some of the GOT-ending haters sound just like Trump supporters with their lying and twisting of facts.
    and THIS s the point at which arguing with you in good faith becomes pointless and useless. good day.

  6. #27426
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Nice word. But no, I'm not. You're just reading WAY too much into the scene. She had the skills, she was a great choice for the kill (what do we say to death), and they forecasted the move in a previous episode.
    Arya killing the NK was NOT a superpower - not sure where you got that idea, at all.
    No matter how many times it's brought up, you continually fail to address the huge discrepancy that is seen ON SCREEN with these two scenes.

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    "You're literally saying she can't do it [sprint past a dozen white walkers and what looks like a ring of 100+ wights all outside in an open clearing so quickly and silently that not a single one of them even moves] and immediately after explaining precisely why she can [slowly and carefully sneak past about 4 wights in a library filled with bookshelves and tables for her to hide behind]."
    These are two COMPLETELY different skills, and you're being either disingenuous or obtuse in trying to pass the first one off as a reason why the second makes sense. In the first scene we clearly see what she is capable of, and that sets a benchmark for her ability to sneak around. In the second scene, she simply materializes out of thin air having somehow bypassed (off screen, of course) a throng of enemies with no cover to move between.



    That isn't a clear path over on the left, that's where the white walkers are all exploding after just standing around uselessly. The rest of the ring is wights packed in shoulder to shoulder. Don't fucking tell me that a scene only moments prior where she used bookshelves to sneak past less than 6 of those guys over the course of about 3 minutes means she had the skill to essentially teleport through 20 times as many in mere seconds so unnoticed that she could clear an additional open distance of about 25 ft with no one even reacting to her.

    No amount of head canon will change the fact that the writers shit the bed with this scene because all they wanted to do was have this character in this scene regardless of how little sense it made.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-06-15 at 05:59 AM.

  7. #27427
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Which means she can do it. And you're confirming that she can. So she can sneak and she can jump. Not much too it. You're literally saying she can't do it and immediately after explaining precisely why she can.



    Because people bitch and moan about "how could Arya know the NK weak spot" when it literally doesn't exist in the series. That's the entire point, which you just bolstered. Her killing of the NK is just using a "cool" move, which had already been shown, to kill the head WW with valerian steel. There is nothing more to that kill.

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    Could have jumped from a cart. If you look at the scene, she doesn't really even come in from that high.


    You mean like Bran? Like Sansa/Theon? They aren't apologists, they are people trying to explain to haters why their points suggesting a "bad" ending aren't entirely correct. Or at least "grounded in reality".


    She got passed through stealth and jumped. Stop reading too much into the scene - they literally don't explain it, so enjoy or don't.


    It's frustrating the lengths at which haters will continue to shit all over a great show with a terrific ending.
    Love that you think they got fired from the Star Wars project. Let us know when you're ready for reality. I swear, some of the GOT-ending haters sound just like Trump supporters with their lying and twisting of facts.
    Holy shit, this type of delusional really does exist. Honestly, I can't say i'm surprised you're a biden supporter after reading your delusional rubbish it makes sense actually now.

    IMAGINE, imagine being the fucking moron in the room who thinks Season 8 was good and you actively try to explain why stuff makes sense that actually doesn't at all because it's just shitty writing

  8. #27428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    ...These are two COMPLETELY different skills, and you're being either disingenuous or obtuse...
    Or intellectually dishonest. I gave up discussing anything with him because of this. Saying on the one hand that opinions should not be corrected and on the other hand that there is a definite right and wrong with people's opinions was a red flag for me.

  9. #27429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    @cubby.. you keep misunderstanding what i'm saying. the fact that characters in a show are DIFFERENT from characters in the books and yet given the same exact story bits that were planned for the books is part of the problem. its exactly THE problem. they should have been treated as their own characters the moment they started deviating from their book portrayals... but they were not. and that's why there is so much of a disconnect. that's why their actions do not gel.

    and Littlefinger knowing what Roose Bolton is like and still having no inkling that Ramsey, his bastard and someone who wants to be his heir and is very motivated to impresses Roose - may not be a nice person is making Littlefinger look dumber than he is supposed to be.
    I think I'm actually not following your point about the deviation - are you saying when the characters in the book who also appear in the series deviated from their character arcs in the book they should have taken on different arcs at that point? Help me out - I am trying to understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    and THIS s the point at which arguing with you in good faith becomes pointless and useless. good day.
    This comment you're referring to was not directed towards you. I enjoy our discussions and particularly your knowledge of both books and series.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    No matter how many times it's brought up, you continually fail to address the huge discrepancy that is seen ON SCREEN with these two scenes.
    No, I do not. But I do appreciate you laying out the argument so succinctly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    These are two COMPLETELY different skills, and you're being either disingenuous or obtuse in trying to pass the first one off as a reason why the second makes sense. In the first scene we clearly see what she is capable of, and that sets a benchmark for her ability to sneak around. In the second scene, she simply materializes out of thin air having somehow bypassed (off screen, of course) a throng of enemies with no cover to move between.



    That isn't a clear path over on the left, that's where the white walkers are all exploding after just standing around uselessly. The rest of the ring is wights packed in shoulder to shoulder. Don't fucking tell me that a scene only moments prior where she used bookshelves to sneak past less than 6 of those guys over the course of about 3 minutes means she had the skill to essentially teleport through 20 times as many in mere seconds so unnoticed that she could clear an additional open distance of about 25 ft with no one even reacting to her.

    No amount of head canon will change the fact that the writers shit the bed with this scene because all they wanted to do was have this character in this scene regardless of how little sense it made.
    I'm not trying to be either disingenuous nor obtuse to find continuity in the scene. I appreciate the argument you're putting forth, and the layout and pics are helpful. However, you're also ignoring some basic facts as well. The skill set of "sneaking" is pretty much the same idea, just a different location. Also, you ignore the fact that when Arya is advancing on the NK, the remaining WW are all standing around watching the NK about to kill the Three Eyed Raven - their attention was drawn away - hence her ability to move to the jump area.

    But at the end of the day, it comes down to whether a person accepts the scene as delivered or not. I do. You don't. We both have reasons for our opinion, and while I disagree, I do respect them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilrien View Post
    Or intellectually dishonest. I gave up discussing anything with him because of this. Saying on the one hand that opinions should not be corrected and on the other hand that there is a definite right and wrong with people's opinions was a red flag for me.
    Please stop lying.

    And I gave up talking with you because I didn't want to have the bait discussion you were trying to create. What you suggest I said above I never did. You calling out intellectual dishonesty is just a bullshit way to admit you make shitting arguments, and feel the need to lie in order to arrive at a conclusion.

    If you have valid points to make about the series, jump in. But this isn't a place for theoretical discussions on opinion. I addressed your initial points and answered you (if you'd bother to look at your own posts you'd know that) but then refrained from the obvious bait-posts you were throwing out, in an attempt to derail the thread.

    People in the discussions I'm having are making great points, backing opinions on the show with facts, and I for one am both enjoying the conversation and learning some good things about the show and the books.

    So please stop lying. We don't need that here - you can take your bullshit elsewhere.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-06-15 at 05:40 PM.

  10. #27430
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    ...So please stop lying. We don't need that here - you can take your bullshit elsewhere.
    hahahahaha

  11. #27431
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I'm not trying to be either disingenuous nor obtuse to find continuity in the scene. I appreciate the argument you're putting forth, and the layout and pics are helpful. However, you're also ignoring some basic facts as well. The skill set of "sneaking" is pretty much the same idea, just a different location. Also, you ignore the fact that when Arya is advancing on the NK, the remaining WW are all standing around watching the NK about to kill the Three Eyed Raven - their attention was drawn away - hence her ability to move to the jump area.

    But at the end of the day, it comes down to whether a person accepts the scene as delivered or not. I do. You don't. We both have reasons for our opinion, and while I disagree, I do respect them.
    I think you'd agree that "punching is just punching" wouldn't be a good argument when comparing the abilities of Batman and Superman, right? Location and surroundings are important as well when it's something you establish (like that scene in Spiderman Homecoming when Peter finds himself on a golfcourse with no buildings to web sling with). When the writers/directors establish that Arya needs to use cover in order to sneak, and does so with skill but no superhuman ability, then that sets a benchmark for her skills that SHOULD be followed in subsequent sneaky scenes.

    There is no real cover in the clearing, and though you point out that the White Walkers could be distracted, there are two lines of them several deep and when they're exploding they're shown to be standing very close to each other (pretty much shoulder to shoulder). There is no space for Arya to use the sneaking skills that had been established unless she's Scooby-Doo-ing between the legs of the White Walkers which just makes the scene even more laughable.

    I don't "accept" the scene because the people who made it put no effort into having it make sense. Where I'll meet you halfway on is that it doesn't HAVE to make sense. I think it's important because the show/books used to make the effort to keep things grounded. If all you care about is seeing a character you like do something that you think is cool, that's perfectly fine. As I've said before, I too can enjoy spectacle driven action where things don't really make sense and characters just conveniently appear wherever they're needed. The reason we keep going back and forth on this is because I'm arguing that it's a FACT (not opinion) that as the series was coming to a close the showrunners threw out much of the internal logic and consistency that had been built up, and simply moved the characters around to hit the set pieces they had planned without much thought into having things make sense, either due to laziness or lack of talent once the plot wasn't clearly written out for them in novel form.

  12. #27432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I think you'd agree that "punching is just punching" wouldn't be a good argument when comparing the abilities of Batman and Superman, right? Location and surroundings are important as well when it's something you establish (like that scene in Spiderman Homecoming when Peter finds himself on a golfcourse with no buildings to web sling with). When the writers/directors establish that Arya needs to use cover in order to sneak, and does so with skill but no superhuman ability, then that sets a benchmark for her skills that SHOULD be followed in subsequent sneaky scenes.

    There is no real cover in the clearing, and though you point out that the White Walkers could be distracted, there are two lines of them several deep and when they're exploding they're shown to be standing very close to each other (pretty much shoulder to shoulder). There is no space for Arya to use the sneaking skills that had been established unless she's Scooby-Doo-ing between the legs of the White Walkers which just makes the scene even more laughable.

    I don't "accept" the scene because the people who made it put no effort into having it make sense. Where I'll meet you halfway on is that it doesn't HAVE to make sense. I think it's important because the show/books used to make the effort to keep things grounded. If all you care about is seeing a character you like do something that you think is cool, that's perfectly fine. As I've said before, I too can enjoy spectacle driven action where things don't really make sense and characters just conveniently appear wherever they're needed. The reason we keep going back and forth on this is because I'm arguing that it's a FACT (not opinion) that as the series was coming to a close the showrunners threw out much of the internal logic and consistency that had been built up, and simply moved the characters around to hit the set pieces they had planned without much thought into having things make sense, either due to laziness or lack of talent once the plot wasn't clearly written out for them in novel form.
    I definitely see the point you make here - it's absolutely a stretch of the imagination (even on my end of enjoying/"accepting" the scene) to say she was able to sneak through there and get the jump on the NK, so to speak. I appreciate a willingness to meet half way and find some common ground, and I hope my above is seen in that same light. To me most of this scene does make sense, including and especially her "kill shot" with the dagger. My conversation with Witchblade77 explains my position pretty well, but I can elaborate if you want. I think if I were going to criticize any part of the scene and/or build up, it would be with the "sneak/leap" at the very end.

    IMO that Arya scene and the notion of LF not knowing much about Ramsay are two very hard pills to swallow - if that makes sense. And I'm certainly not unaware that the show certainly had a different look and feel to it when the GRRM material ran out. And even D&D (I can't stop thinking of them as Dumb & Dumber now, even if I don't agree with that assessment - whoever labeled them that in here did well) knowing the outline ending still wasn't enough to maintain the rich character arcs that had been built up. I think @Witchblade77 makes a very good point, if I understood it correctly, about characters who change from book to series but aren't kept true to their new, changed arc (I hope I'm characterizing his point correctly, if not, the mistake is mine, not his).

    And of course everyone can agree the ending was rushed - I certainly wish they kept to 10 shows per season for S7 and S8.

    Where we diverge the most is regarding the internal logic and consistency of characters and story lines - I feel they kept true to most of it, especially the main characters arcs and endings. However, I know you and others here feel the characters were pushed out of their arc and fed into convenient or "showy" endings, and their original characters weren't held true to the end. I, of course, disagree.

    For instance, just as a short summary:

    Jamie - held true to always being for Cersei, even in E6.8 saying "he would do anything to be with her, [including catapulting babies into a castle wall]" - and reiterating "the things we do for love". So to me, him going north was staying true to his promise to Dany (because he's an oathkeeper), but once the dead were defeated, heading back to Cersei.

    Dany - tipping over in the end, was a slow burn with evidence of her "madness" in previous seasons (burning the slaver cities to ashes in S6, for example). She loses everyone she ever loved, and has people betraying her, and finds out her claim to the throne wasn't legit, aka Jon Snow.

    Bran - interesting choice for King, certainly one that no one probably saw coming.

    Varys - always putting the realm first. His machinations towards the end were a little abrupt, but still in character, as he knew those actions could greatly influence the outcome, whereas once Dany actually sat on the throne he would have to revert to the long game. Also - didn't Varys know Dany couldn't have children....

    (I still say there is an Artificial Intelligence analogy between him ruling and our modern society and future thoughts on AI's running parts of future government/society, but I digress)

  13. #27433
    The defense of this show past s6 is hilarious to watch.

    If this is someone's idea of good storytelling, your taste is suspect.

  14. #27434
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The defense of this show past s6 is hilarious to watch.

    If this is someone's idea of good storytelling, your taste is suspect.
    And we wonder why more people who did enjoy it (and there were millions) don't come on here to say as much.

  15. #27435
    I touched on a lot of these in a post from a week or so ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Jamie - held true to always being for Cersei, even in E6.8 saying "he would do anything to be with her, [including catapulting babies into a castle wall]" - and reiterating "the things we do for love". So to me, him going north was staying true to his promise to Dany (because he's an oathkeeper), but once the dead were defeated, heading back to Cersei.
    So you're essentially saying he has no character arc. If he begins the story as a man willing to push a child out a window for Cersei and ends the series as a man willing to still do anything to be at her side then that invalidates all the growth that was shown throughout the series.

    This is kinda where having read the book makes a difference since as a POV character we get a bit more insight into Jamie's inner thoughts. Jamie's arc involves his progression from a jaded, arrogant man to a more selfless, honorable one who can truly live up to the knightly code he has always aspired to. Being humbled by his injury, interacting with characters like Catelyn and Brienne, and being put into a position of responsibility help him work towards that path, while his connection to Cersei is the strongest link to the toxic path he is trying to stray from.

    If it were truly GRRM's style to string readers along with 6 books worth of character arcs for the main POV characters only to reverse them all in the final book then that would make him a pretty terrible writer. I don't think that's his style.

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Dany - tipping over in the end, was a slow burn with evidence of her "madness" in previous seasons (burning the slaver cities to ashes in S6, for example). She loses everyone she ever loved, and has people betraying her, and finds out her claim to the throne wasn't legit, aka Jon Snow.
    Again, noooooooo. There is zero indication of madness before The Bells.

    She doesn't burn the slaver cities, she burns a few of their warships (because she needs the rest to reach Westeros) and mercifully allows one of the masters to live in order for him to convince the other cities not to follow the path of Meereen. There's nothing crazy or cruel about that. It's tactically sound and is an effort to avoid more unnecessary bloodshed.

    Her losing people and being betrayed is not unique. Jon has lost family and been betrayed (murdered, even), yet no one is worried his Targaryen blood will suddenly turn him into a genocidal maniac. Arya watched her father executed and watched her oldest brother's headless body paraded around with his direwolf's head attached to it, yet she becomes a super cool ninja. Bran has literally had all his humanity sapped from him, yet he's voted king.

    Executing soldiers during war time after giving them the opportunity to join her side doesn't foreshadow madness. Crucifying slavers who crucified children doesn't foreshadow madness. Losing people she cares about doesn't foreshadow madness. Why is everyone else (Jon included) allowed to get sad and/or angry when bad things happen to them, but for Dany it's "evidence of her madness"?

    It's fucking STUPID to use these points as reasons why Daenerys would take a 7 season arc of learning to balance strength and mercy, always caring for the helpless innocent folk, willing to listen to advisors and come to grips with her family heritage, and then throw it all away in the blink of an eye for apparently no reason. She didn't go mad when Drogo died, she didn't go mad when Selmy died, she didn't go mad when Viserion died, she didn't go mad when Jorah died, she didn't go mad when Rhaegal died, she didn't go mad when Missandei died. Nope, she acted like a normal person through all of these events. Instead she went mad when she heard some bells, and THAT is why people say it makes no sense and was terribly written.

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Bran - interesting choice for King, certainly one that no one probably saw coming.
    I don't even feel like talking about Bran since half his time on the show was as a useless character with absolutely zero personality. While it might make sense to install your omniscient automaton as king, there was nothing enjoyable or satisfying about the character by the end.

    The show unfortunately abandoned a lot of the more interesting features pertaining to wargs, so Bran's arc from a child resentful over having been crippled to one who has mastered being a skinchanger never really felt like it panned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Varys - always putting the realm first. His machinations towards the end were a little abrupt, but still in character, as he knew those actions could greatly influence the outcome, whereas once Dany actually sat on the throne he would have to revert to the long game. Also - didn't Varys know Dany couldn't have children....
    Yeah, as we've agreed several times now, Varys is clear that he puts the realm first. His motivation isn't in question. However, what I've also pointed out several times is his very clear methodology. He says whatever he needs to say to keep himself alive while working quietly behind the scenes. You agree that his machinations are abrupt towards the end, and that is the reason why those actions are out of character.

    I also touched on a few other important details in my other post, the most important one being that Varys had no indication that Dany would be a bad ruler.

  16. #27436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    So you're essentially saying he has no character arc. If he begins the story as a man willing to push a child out a window for Cersei and ends the series as a man willing to still do anything to be at her side then that invalidates all the growth that was shown throughout the series.

    This is kinda where having read the book makes a difference since as a POV character we get a bit more insight into Jamie's inner thoughts. Jamie's arc involves his progression from a jaded, arrogant man to a more selfless, honorable one who can truly live up to the knightly code he has always aspired to. Being humbled by his injury, interacting with characters like Catelyn and Brienne, and being put into a position of responsibility help him work towards that path, while his connection to Cersei is the strongest link to the toxic path he is trying to stray from.

    If it were truly GRRM's style to string readers along with 6 books worth of character arcs for the main POV characters only to reverse them all in the final book then that would make him a pretty terrible writer. I don't think that's his style.
    And I think this is where series-only vs series-and-books conflict, with really no resolution possible. Because if you look at Jaime's character in the series only, there is no knightly code full progression. He hints at it, and the "oathbreaker" issue certainly is a piece of it. But in the series, he consistently and constantly points to Cersei being his only priority, all the way up to E6.8.

    I would bet that the "I would catapult babies into a castle to get back to Cersei" conversation with Lord Tully we see in S6E7 never even happens in the book. In the series we do see him humbled by the injury and his full character borne out with his interactions with Brienne, but the toxic connection to Cersei never falters.

    You mentioned that you touched on these points last week, as did I, and it might be that we've found our impasse, at least on this character/subject.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Again, noooooooo. There is zero indication of madness before The Bells.

    She doesn't burn the slaver cities, she burns a few of their warships (because she needs the rest to reach Westeros) and mercifully allows one of the masters to live in order for him to convince the other cities not to follow the path of Meereen. There's nothing crazy or cruel about that. It's tactically sound and is an effort to avoid more unnecessary bloodshed.
    You're literally, objectively wrong on this point. Episode 6.9 she is wanting to burn the slaver cities who revolted to the ground, and Tyrion talks her out of it. You're right that she only ends up defeating the attackers of Meereen, but she wanted to burn the other cities - and that alone is evidence of her internal madness. And even more so, we constantly see people tell her she doesn't want to be her father, that she isn't her father. That kind of writing is used sometimes to show that someone will actually become what they didn't want to be. I forget the writing term.

    There are several others that come in Season 7 and 8, and a few indications of her internal/growing madness prior to S6. I've listed them previously.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Her losing people and being betrayed is not unique. Jon has lost family and been betrayed (murdered, even), yet no one is worried his Targaryen blood will suddenly turn him into a genocidal maniac. Arya watched her father executed and watched her oldest brother's headless body paraded around with his direwolf's head attached to it, yet she becomes a super cool ninja. Bran has literally had all his humanity sapped from him, yet he's voted king.
    I never said Dany losing people was unique. The whole point is that it affects her differently than others, and we see those affectations in her words and actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Executing soldiers during war time after giving them the opportunity to join her side doesn't foreshadow madness. Crucifying slavers who crucified children doesn't foreshadow madness. Losing people she cares about doesn't foreshadow madness. Why is everyone else (Jon included) allowed to get sad and/or angry when bad things happen to them, but for Dany it's "evidence of her madness"?
    Because these events affect her differently than others. And we see it almost immediately. Because she's different. Why do you insist that everyone have the same reaction to events. How is it impossible for Dany to be affected differently than other people by similar circumstances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It's fucking STUPID to use these points as reasons why Daenerys would take a 7 season arc of learning to balance strength and mercy, always caring for the helpless innocent folk, willing to listen to advisors and come to grips with her family heritage, and then throw it all away in the blink of an eye for apparently no reason. She didn't go mad when Drogo died, she didn't go mad when Selmy died, she didn't go mad when Viserion died, she didn't go mad when Jorah died, she didn't go mad when Rhaegal died, she didn't go mad when Missandei died. Nope, she acted like a normal person through all of these events. Instead she went mad when she heard some bells, and THAT is why people say it makes no sense and was terribly written.
    Not if you look at it objectively. None of the events you list above immediately turn her to madness, but it does build it up inside her, slowly, and we see that in her actions and statements throughout the series. All the way up to the end, after she loses battle after battle, 2/3 of her dragons, her best friend, her advisers betray her, Jon has a better claim on the throne, etc. Ignoring these events doesn't mean they didn't happen and do have a negative impact on her psyche.

    I'm literally pointing out examples of her showing madness and you're ignoring them, and the inserting other arguments that I've never made. She was going to burn the slaver cities to asses until Tyrion intervened. I told this to you already and you brushed it aside, and pretended I said something else. Then you called me stupid. Take a step back and think about the ramifications of her already wanting to burn cities to ashes in Season 6. Before all the really bad shit happens to her.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I don't even feel like talking about Bran since half his time on the show was as a useless character with absolutely zero personality. While it might make sense to install your omniscient automaton as king, there was nothing enjoyable or satisfying about the character by the end.

    The show unfortunately abandoned a lot of the more interesting features pertaining to wargs, so Bran's arc from a child resentful over having been crippled to one who has mastered being a skinchanger never really felt like it panned out.
    Frankly, I agree with you about him. I never really liked the character. That scene of a young Ned fighting the Sword of the Morning was pretty sweet though.

    I would have liked to see more of the warg's skill in the series - that was pretty interesting.

    (I still think there is a wholly separate conversation to have about Bran being analogous to real world AI, but I digress)


    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Yeah, as we've agreed several times now, Varys is clear that he puts the realm first. His motivation isn't in question. However, what I've also pointed out several times is his very clear methodology. He says whatever he needs to say to keep himself alive while working quietly behind the scenes. You agree that his machinations are abrupt towards the end, and that is the reason why those actions are out of character.

    I also touched on a few other important details in my other post, the most important one being that Varys had no indication that Dany would be a bad ruler.
    At times I have trouble keeping track of good-faith posters points - you and Witchblade77 are great, but you two also disagree on some points, including Varys - so apologies if I'm comingling your points.

    However, in my opinion he has to break out of the quiet behind-the-scenes Machiavellian work he normally does because everything is coming to a crux, and he won't be able to influence events nearly as much once Dany is on the throne.

    Varys knew Jon was the rightful heir though, right? Had a better claim on the throne, and as far as anyone knew could still have children. I also thought Varys had some indications she wouldn't be a good ruler, but I could be wrong about that.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-06-15 at 11:53 PM.

  17. #27437
    It's just funny watching her basically Super Mario her way to what's supposed to be one of the greatest threats to the entire world. Or is she Luigi?
    How joyous to be in such a place! Where phishing is not only allowed, it is encouraged!

  18. #27438
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    And we wonder why more people who did enjoy it (and there were millions) don't come on here to say as much.
    I mean, I love lots of things this forum hates, like The Last Jedi and the 2nd and 3rd Matrix movies. But as someone aspiring to writing, and someone who's paid to write clearly and coherently (albeit in a technical area), D&D's writing was......very bad. Objectively.

  19. #27439
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I mean, I love lots of things this forum hates, like The Last Jedi and the 2nd and 3rd Matrix movies. But as someone aspiring to writing, and someone who's paid to write clearly and coherently (albeit in a technical area), D&D's writing was......very bad. Objectively.
    I too liked The Last Jedi and all three Matrix movies.

    That aside, I find it fascinating that you think screenplay writing can be objectively "very bad" - when so clearly millions of people disagree with you. And your focus is on technical writing, right? Not fiction writing. And you read the books, right?

    And you know that D&D were hired on to three other projects past GoT, right? And, contrary to liars in this forum, there weren't "fired" from the Star Wars project (the project was canceled by Disney execs, after Solo failed). Moreover, D&D were given the keys to the kingdom with The Three Body project, along with two other projects.

    So when you say that D&D put out "objectively" "very bad" writing, really you're confirming is that you can't speak to the quality of this show.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Interesting. Episode 7.2 - Dany was given advice by more than one person to take Kings Landing immediately, and forgo everything else (and this was prior to Jon paying her a visit). Had she done that, the Seven Kingdoms probably would have been hers. And she then could have defeated her enemies from a defensive standpoint (I can't even begin to imagine how good a Dragon would be at defensive fighting). And then rode north to fight the dead.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-06-16 at 03:30 AM.

  20. #27440
    Screenwriting, like any aspect of filmmaking/television production, can be objectively bad. There are theories and areas of studies in all these things. D&D's writing wouldn't pass a 100 level course in screenwriting.

    Just like you can say that, no matter how much you may like the "world" built by the Star Wars prequel trilogy, the directing and screenwriting (especially the dialogue) were objectively bad. The former was too static, and too filled with shot/reverse shot with stationary characters (mainly because of the amount of green screen they were shooting in front of so goddamn always). The latter was filled with flat characters, unbelievable acceptance by various characters (like Padme's falling in love with Anakin), and so on, and so forth.

    And saying "millions of people loved it" means nothing. Popularity has never been a measurement of quality. The Fast and Furious movies are a multi-billion dollar franchise, and Michael Bay has had a thriving career. Now, if GoT had, from its inception, been a mindless action fest with nudity and blood and gore and fantastical action - then fine. The quality of the latter seasons would have been fine. But that wasn't the thematic premise of the series, either in the books, or the earlier seasons, which were dialogue heavy (and rich), grounded and realistic, and filled with rational characters even when they were acting rashly (like Stannis, whose actions were all batshit crazy, but "reasonable" inasmuch as he saw how much power Melisandre had in killing Renly Baratheon).

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