Is there any chance alternative power systems will disappear?

[Glorious Leader]

Why would you ever think the game outside of mythic is or needs to be balanced? What would be the purpose of doing so? What reward scheme from level one?
?

This is a complete and total lack of understanding of not only what I said but how human psychology and reward engineering works. It's not that the rest of the game necessarily needs to be balance in the micro sense but rather the rest of the game is balanced AGAINST the mythic raiding scene. The reward scheme from level one is.. character progression. Duh. I mean it's gear and levels and then levels run out and I"m sure you don't want them getting fat loot for doing dailies so...

- - - Updated - - -

"Alternative power systems" existed for very long, just in different forms (reps, badges, leggos etc), there was always something to farm outside of raids with exception of WoD that we all know how it turned out.
.

Precisely this. Now for awhile they kept increase the offerings so your badges at one point got you a full tier set. Then they decided to cater to the raid crowd who cried about forced badges and it was gutted. This all sort of culminates in WoD where theres nothing left to do outside of raid which I'm sure is perfect for some. It was a disaster for the rest of the game. The fact that SL has started to swing this balance back in favor of less "mandatory" things to do is pretty telling. I've come to the conclusion that a key factor in the success of the game or at least one thats indicative of how casual friendly it is is the degree to which mythic raiders feel "forced" to participate in other content. They should feel "forced" and the more they are the better the game is for everybody else.

[Crimson Spears]

There is no point in arguing when you are completely wrong in first sentence. 100% difference is not "somewhat". So please don't talk about credibility, you either did not play this game before WoD or you have some terrible memory. Back in MoP we had specs who were able to deal twice as much as lower tiered specs.

Arguments are all above, just because you chose to ignore them doesn't mean they stopped existing, here have a link:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53230899

O so you are going to double down on the weird balance argument and try to downplay the absurd things you posted. Look im not going to pretend nor do I honestly care if all 36 specs are close to each other. It is usually rare that a class isn't represented at all. I don't aim for perfect balance and you still have no argument.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a complete and total lack of understanding of not only what I said but how human psychology and reward engineering works. It's not that the rest of the game necessarily needs to be balance in the micro sense but rather the rest of the game is balanced AGAINST the mythic raiding scene. The reward scheme from level one is.. character progression. Duh. I mean it's gear and levels and then levels run out and I"m sure you don't want them getting fat loot for doing dailies so...

- - - Updated - - -



Precisely this. Now for awhile they kept increase the offerings so your badges at one point got you a full tier set. Then they decided to cater to the raid crowd who cried about forced badges and it was gutted. This all sort of culminates in WoD where theres nothing left to do outside of raid which I'm sure is perfect for some. It was a disaster for the rest of the game. The fact that SL has started to swing this balance back in favor of less "mandatory" things to do is pretty telling. I've come to the conclusion that a key factor in the success of the game or at least one thats indicative of how casual friendly it is is the degree to which mythic raiders feel "forced" to participate in other content. They should feel "forced" and the more they are the better the game is for everybody else.

There is a lack of understanding if you want to keep leveling at max level and believe that a difficulty curve isn't something to balance around...

[draugril]

Alternative advancement systems are fine.

Removing and reinventing them every two years is not.

[Crimson Spears]

Alternative advancement systems are fine.

Removing and reinventing them every two years is not.

I can't see how the two can't be one and the same... The whole idea is you fill a bar forever doing easy content. If you ever fill that bar the system breaks.

[draugril]

I can't see how the two can't be one and the same... The whole idea is you fill a bar forever doing easy content. If you ever fill that bar the system breaks.

That's what WoW has led you to believe. A myriad of other games - including Blizzard games and games that even predate WoW - have had successful alternate advancement systems that don't need to be adjusted for two years before they work as intended just so they can be thrown out and start that process over again.

[Gorsameth]

That's what WoW has led you to believe. A myriad of other games - including Blizzard games and games that even predate WoW - have had successful alternate advancement systems that don't need to be adjusted for two years before they work as intended just so they can be thrown out and start that process over again.

Then please, give us examples instead of simply saying they exist and do what they need to do because you say so.

[draugril]

Then please, give us examples instead of simply saying they exist and do what they need to do because you say so.

EverQuest. Diablo 3. Elder Scrolls Online. To name a few quick ones to get you started.

[Gorsameth]

EverQuest. Diablo 3. Elder Scrolls Online. To name a few quick ones to get you started.

... so I'll take it as a No then, since you failed to list how any of these clearly superior systems actually work.

Your the one claiming to have a better solution, its not my job to research what those solutions are.

[draugril]

... so I'll take it as a No then, since you failed to list how any of these clearly superior systems actually work.

Your the one claiming to have a better solution, its not my job to research what those solutions are.

Here, here, and here. Done. All of these are better solutions. I've led the horse to water.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Here, here, and here. Done. All of these are better solutions. I've led the horse to water.

The Paragon System of D3 is a good thing for you? It's mindless busywork each season anew...

[draugril]

The Paragon System of D3 is a good thing for you? It's mindless busywork each season anew...

That's like saying you can't progress your character in WoW because you keep making a new account every month.

[kaminaris]

O so you are going to double down on the weird balance argument and try to downplay the absurd things you posted. Look im not going to pretend nor do I honestly care if all 36 specs are close to each other. It is usually rare that a class isn't represented at all. I don't aim for perfect balance and you still have no argument.

When you are wrong on very first sentence you need to be prepared to lose all credibility. No amount of word salad is going to change it. Ignoring arguments also doesn't look good. Re-read all posts from Glorious Leader until you understand them.

[Gorsameth]

Here, here, and here. Done. All of these are better solutions. I've led the horse to water.

Thank you, its much easier to have a discussion when your not vaguely pointing out the window.
(tho your links are still shit and barely explain the system, so if I get some stuff wrong, well your own fault for not providing better sources)

EQ sounds like the mother of all bloat, piling on endless amounts of player power that runs into the same issue of needing to be reset regularly or run into an overwhelming situation.
2 seconds of extra googling with "EQ AA bloat" tells me this system is infact 100x worse then what WoW had even before moving heavily into borrowed power.

D3's paragon system, same problem tho less bloated then EQ. Its endlessly stacking player power with no cap. Not only would it require regular resetting it would also require even more powerful catchup mechanics. You endlessly dump points into mainstat (after maxing the rest) which directly scales you damage to the point where the mainstat on your gear barely matter because they are insignificant compared to the power provided by your Paragon levels.

ESO's champion system is, imo, clearly the best of the 3 and could easily be used as the 'borrowed power' system of an expansion but your point is that it doesn't need to be 'reinvented' after 2 years. So... how does it scale? It has a cap, you can increase the cap with a new expansion but then your running strait into more bloat, not to mention leaving new players with another long grind.

WoW's borrowed power systems give an extra progression beyond max level and don't add undue burden to new players by having them grind 10+ years of alternate power progression to compete. It resets every expansion to provide a level playing field to start off from and to stop bloat from endless piling on new stuff.

Diabloprogress tells me the highest paragon in the world is apparently 9932. every level over 800 is 5 primary stat. thats 45.660 primary stat. When his pimped out gear gives 6.7k.
How is that not out of control bloat? The very thing Borrowed Power is aiming to prevent.
You cannot with a strait face says this is a superior system to solving the problem that borrowed power seeks to address.

[Crimson Spears]

When you are wrong on very first sentence you need to be prepared to lose all credibility. No amount of word salad is going to change it. Ignoring arguments also doesn't look good. Re-read all posts from Glorious Leader until you understand them.

The only thing remarkable about you is your arrogance only eclipsed by your ignorance on the topics being discussed.

[Thirtyrock]

before legion it was just a different flavor.

-valor points/badges to upgrade all your gear.
-extremely powerful trinkets/set bonusses/legendary item quests.
-glyphs/enchants/gems used to be bigger deals.
-every expansion has always had big changes in player spells/talents/etc, with some just being shuffled around but some just being expansion only.

the big nasty change legion made was the whole "if you wait a few weeks you get the same result for a quarter of the work", grindy systems have always been there.

I agree there were systems that you had to keep up with and borrowed power in the form of tier gear. I think my problem is not with borrowed power, it's the fact that I have to relearn HOW to get my borrowed power with every expansion or even every tier. With Tier sets, it was straight forward, kill bosses, get token, buy set piece, repeat until you have set of 4. It was the same every tier and every expansion.

Now it changes significantly even from tier to tier, like from Azerite power being the main thing to corruption being the main thing. That makes it really hard to follow everything.

[Glorious Leader]

When you are wrong on very first sentence you need to be prepared to lose all credibility. No amount of word salad is going to change it. Ignoring arguments also doesn't look good. Re-read all posts from Glorious Leader until you understand them.

How could he ever understand? His ideal conception of what the game should be is the just the most narrow vision that would ultimately exclude everyone else who didn't participate. On some level I think the devs would dearly love to make that game and I wish they would just so they could be fired and replaced and not this weak ass bullshit they peddle every expansion with half hearted gestures to casual players.

[Crimson Spears]

How could he ever understand? His ideal conception of what the game should be is the just the most narrow vision that would ultimately exclude everyone else who didn't participate. On some level I think the devs would dearly love to make that game and I wish they would just so they could be fired and replaced and not this weak ass bullshit they peddle every expansion with half hearted gestures to casual players.

Its a vision of a game that respects your time and what the game first got its clout from. It is what made wow the most popular casual mmo on the market.

New wow doesn't respect the players time. It has so little faith in its content it relies on chores and busy work rather then trusting in itself that it can make interesting and compelling content. I honestly question if players like you enjoy the game or if you simply use it to kill time. I don't ever see you praises content that is made. You simply drone on about rewards you could get.

The content isn't the focus for you. You simply want to gain rewards from inputs and I can't be convinced that is a interesting or enjoyable way to interact with something.

[Mike tang 1991]

What is this "alternative power systems" and "borrowed power systems" your talking about ?

Was it present in cataclysm ? (Haven't played since cata so not sure what your talking about)

[Gorsameth]

What is this "alternative power systems" and "borrowed power systems" your talking about ?

Was it present in cataclysm ? (Haven't played since cata so not sure what your talking about)

Its ways to give players a progression path after having reached max level, outside of gear.

First really introduced in Legion with artefact weapons where you spend the entire expansion gaining Artifact Power (AP) to make your Artifact more powerful.

Its called "Borrowed Power" because the system goes away at the end of the expansion to be replaced with something else.

[kaminaris]

Its a vision of a game that respects your time and what the game first got its clout from. It is what made wow the most popular casual mmo on the market.

I don't know how can you even say that with a straight face... or perhaps you are trolling, thats got to be it.

Because WoW from beta was literally all about busywork. Your entire assumption is completely wrong.