[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[cubby]

Screenwriting, like any aspect of filmmaking/television production, can be objectively bad. There are theories and areas of studies in all these things. D&D's writing wouldn't pass a 100 level course in screenwriting.

Just like you can say that, no matter how much you may like the "world" built by the Star Wars prequel trilogy, the directing and screenwriting (especially the dialogue) were objectively bad. The former was too static, and too filled with shot/reverse shot with stationary characters (mainly because of the amount of green screen they were shooting in front of so goddamn always). The latter was filled with flat characters, unbelievable acceptance by various characters (like Padme's falling in love with Anakin), and so on, and so forth.

And saying "millions of people loved it" means nothing. Popularity has never been a measurement of quality. The Fast and Furious movies are a multi-billion dollar franchise, and Michael Bay has had a thriving career. Now, if GoT had, from its inception, been a mindless action fest with nudity and blood and gore and fantastical action - then fine. The quality of the latter seasons would have been fine. But that wasn't the thematic premise of the series, either in the books, or the earlier seasons, which were dialogue heavy (and rich), grounded and realistic, and filled with rational characters even when they were acting rashly (like Stannis, whose actions were all batshit crazy, but "reasonable" inasmuch as he saw how much power Melisandre had in killing Renly Baratheon).

That's just so obnoxious of you to say that - so arrogant. You might think that, and you're welcome to you subjective opinion, but you're wrong - objectively.

The thematic premise of the series wasn't lost in the last two seasons, and the characters remained "rational" in their decisions and choices - even Dany tipping over made perfect sense. I swear you people haven't really watched the last two seasons (of course you have, but your words indicate that you must have missed something). I'm watching the series again, and I'm in Season 7, and it's ALL dialogue so far - good dialogue. So for you to claim that the writing was "objectively very bad", when other people who know what they are talking about liked it very much, just shows that you are the one who really can't be objective in your evaluation.

And while popularity has never been a true measurement of quality, the continued piling on of fantastic projects is - and I as pointed out above, D&D continue to get newer and greater projects.

[eschatological]

And while popularity has never been a true measurement of popularity, the continued piling on of fantastic projects is - and I as pointed out above, D&D continue to get newer and greater projects.

What new projects?

Last I heard, no one has heard shit about the supposed SW trilogy they were given. Never mentioned at any Disney meetings or anything. And they tried to develop a "Man-in-the-High-Castle"-esque series where the Confederacy won the Civil War and modern day America still had slavery which.......was a project that died before it ever reached production.

It's not arrogant to judge art. Opinions on art will always have some subjectivity, but there are standards and theories to be upheld (and broken by truly visionary artists). Just because it's entertainment doesn't mean "everything's great if you like it."

[cubby]

What new projects?

Last I heard, no one has heard shit about the supposed SW trilogy they were given. Never mentioned at any Disney meetings or anything. And they tried to develop a "Man-in-the-High-Castle"-esque series where the Confederacy won the Civil War and modern day America still had slavery which.......was a project that died before it ever reached production.

So you don't even know the history of the people you're "objectively" judging - you're literally calling out your own lies at this point. You say their writing is objectively bad, but don't know what D&D are doing now. You're so fucking arrogant in your ridiculously subjective and largely unfounded opinions.

D&D were given the Star Wars trilogy project to work on (because they were so "objectively very bad", right?) and they walked away from it because of a $200M deal from Netflix. Same with the Confederate project.

Do you think Netflix hands out $200M deals to "objectively very bad writers"? Or can we put your ridiculous claim to bed now. Shout if you need more info about things you're talking about but can't be bothered to learn about.

It's not arrogant to judge art. Opinions on art will always have some subjectivity, but there are standards and theories to be upheld (and broken by truly visionary artists). Just because it's entertainment doesn't mean "everything's great if you like it."

But it is arrogant to call your opinions "objective" - which is precisely what you did above. And I'll go ahead and take the word of people who objectively know what they're talking about over someone like you.

[Adamas102]

I know you don't want to reference the books, but since the show made a point to follow them so closely at the start, then added details from the page are valid when trying to interpret scenes in the show.

And I think this is where series-only vs series-and-books conflict, with really no resolution possible. Because if you look at Jaime's character in the series only, there is no knightly code full progression. He hints at it, and the "oathbreaker" issue certainly is a piece of it. But in the series, he consistently and constantly points to Cersei being his only priority, all the way up to E6.8.

I would bet that the "I would catapult babies into a castle to get back to Cersei" conversation with Lord Tully we see in S6E7 never even happens in the book. In the series we do see him humbled by the injury and his full character borne out with his interactions with Brienne, but the toxic connection to Cersei never falters.

The knightly code isn't talked about as much compared to the books (less detail on the show for tertiary characters connected to Jaime), but it is referenced in the show. That's where his obsession with keeping his oaths comes from. He joins the Kingsguard to stay close to Cersei, but he does take those vows seriously (to his father's dismay). The show only barely references the knights that came before him when Joffrey is flipping through the Kingsguard book and noting that Jamie's section is so much smaller than the others. In the books, it's just Jamie himself flipping through the book and lamenting that he hasn't really done any deeds to earn his place in that book.

I don't see any issue with the baby in the trebuchet line (which is indeed in the books, though he doesn't mentioned any desire to return to Cersei at this point). He is trying really hard to be diplomatic now that he's in a position of command, and doing his best to find a way to avoid storming the castle, causing more death, and going against his oath to Catelyn. He's rebuffed and mocked multiple times by Edmure and in frustration resorts to using the threat against his unborn baby. The way I interpret the scene is essentially him saying "if this is who you expect me to be then fine", but I don't think at that point in the story he would truly be as cavalier about killing children as he was at the very beginning of the series when he pushes Bran. He's assuming the role of "bad cop" even though he knows that unwavering dedication to his sister is wavering. In fact, in the book his inner thoughts after making that threat is that he sounded like his father, a man he has never aspired to be.

His connection to Cersei does falter on the show, multiple times. From sending Brienne back out to find the Stark girls, to helping his brother escape imprisonment for Joff's murder, to giving Olenna Tyrell a more dignified death, to finally leaving Cersei to go join the fight against the dead. If it weren't for his final act trying to get back to Cersei, all those moments would be part of his character arc and its trajectory to break away from Cersei and be a decent person. Unfortunately, the show negates all those steps with a couple lines in his last few scenes.

In the books his desire to return to Kings Landing is to be with his son Tommen and to help him rule, not to be with Cersei. When he receives a letter from Cersei begging for his help (when she is captured by the High Sparrow and ordered to stand trial) he has the letter thrown into the fire after reading it, the presumption is that he has finally broken away from her grasp.

I'm literally pointing out examples of her showing madness and you're ignoring them, and the inserting other arguments that I've never made. She was going to burn the slaver cities to asses until Tyrion intervened. I told this to you already and you brushed it aside, and pretended I said something else. Then you called me stupid. Take a step back and think about the ramifications of her already wanting to burn cities to ashes in Season 6. Before all the really bad shit happens to her.

You're pointing out things that happen to her, not examples of madness. The only one you really bring up is her saying she should burn the slavers cities, but I don't see that as madness. Part of her arc is her growing into a ruler, and part of that is learning to listen to her advisors. Remember, she's also a very young queen, so frustration and immaturity are part of that. She sacrificed a lot to try to keep the peace and yet there she is with her city under siege. Her wondering whether she should take the easy route of destruction over diplomacy (having tried the latter and almost being killed for it) isn't madness, and in the end she listens to her advisors anyway.

The Mad King was cruel, paranoid, and utterly delusional man. He's willing to burn down his own city rather than having it fall into the hands of his enemies, and believed he would be reborn as a dragon. Daenerys isn't like that. Does she ever execute anyone who hasn't actually done something against her? Pretty sure every one she has killed has either betrayed her or taken up arms against her.

However, in my opinion he has to break out of the quiet behind-the-scenes Machiavellian work he normally does because everything is coming to a crux, and he won't be able to influence events nearly as much once Dany is on the throne.

Varys knew Jon was the rightful heir though, right? Had a better claim on the throne, and as far as anyone knew could still have children. I also thought Varys had some indications she wouldn't be a good ruler, but I could be wrong about that.

But Varys doesn't care about claims. He doesn't care about any particular monarch, only the people (his words). There's also the fact that Jon's claim is tied to his grandfather, the Mad King Aerys. How would that be something Varys values that highly? His scenes with Dany have proved to him that she's a charismatic, grounded, decent ruler. The only thing he invokes when pitching treason to Jon is the whole Targaryen's MIGHT go crazy thing, but there has been no madness at that point.

I think it was also pretty sloppy that they made Jon's place in the defunct line of succession such a big deal when part of Dany's uphill battle was that her family was no longer viewed all that favorably in Westeros. Jon's claim comes from that very same family line, but no one says to him "well, you're going to have a hard time convincing people you should be king given that your grandfather was a real dick". Dany hasn't committed war crimes and Jon doesn't want to pursue his (relatively tenuous) claim to the throne, so where is Varys' motivation to rock the boat to violently?

Why would he not be able to influence things once Dany is on the throne? When does he say that? Remember, she's the 4th monarch he's served and up to that point a big step up from the other three. What particular event is so insane and unforgivable that he abandons decades of quiet, careful, behind the scenes planning for immediate and sloppy assassination attempts?

[eschatological]

So........they're adapting two more novels as another project, and a third show they're executive producing, which Amanda Peet is writing and showrunning.. Good on them, they adapted the written material of GoT well. They're very good adapters.

Have you looked at their resume before GoT? It was literally godawful. One of them helped write the X-Men Origins: Wolverine movie, which was so bad they sewed shut the mouth of Deadpool, a character notorious for his wisecracking. Benioff also wrote Troy, which was meh, at best.

But also Netflix is notorious for tossing money on shit they cancel at many various stages, including and up to after 2 seasons. Netflix is profligate, as a production company. It's kind of a known thing in Hollywood.

I mean, are you D&D's publicist or something? An article about how they "walked away" from Star Wars (their childhood dream) is a publicist puff piece for saying that LucasFilm wanted to cut ties and they looked for something else before it was announced. Notice that they're mainly attached as EPs on these projects, and, as far as I can tell, aren't writing any of them.

[cubby]

I'm up to E7.3 and a couple of observations:

There is deep and tragic irony to Dany's end. She could have taken the Seven Kingdoms upon her arrival by burning tens of thousands of people. But she doesn't because her thing is to protect the innocent. Eventually she burns Kings Landing to ashes after tipping over to madness, having already secured the city.

The dialogue driven plot is still strong and spot on - most of the first part of Season 7 is all dialogue, and good dialogue at that. Terrific conversations between Dany and Jon; Cersei's dungeon meeting with the Dawn mother/daughter; Jon and Tyrion's conversation about insurmountable problems. It goes on and on - good plot, good dialogue, characters continuing to develop.

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E7.3 - Jaime confirms again, as he has the entire series, that Cersei is who he will die with. In his conversation with Olenna Tyrell after Jaime takes High Garden, Olenna says to Jaime "it's gone beyond your control" in regards to his love and commitment to Cersei, and he nods. Two other times in that conversation he confirms to being fully committed to Cersei. To me, that is episodic evidence that Jaime remained true to his character, at least the character that was built in the series, and fully justifies his ending and death.

[tomten]

Do you think Netflix hands out $200M deals to "objectively very bad writers"? Or can we put your ridiculous claim to bed now. Shout if you need more info about things you're talking about but can't be bothered to learn about. .

Short answer? Yes.
Long answer? Hell yes they do.

[Berndorf]

I mean, I love lots of things this forum hates, like The Last Jedi and the 2nd and 3rd Matrix movies. But as someone aspiring to writing, and someone who's paid to write clearly and coherently (albeit in a technical area), D&D's writing was......very bad. Objectively.

Which is fair but also expected I think. More so given that these aren't really their characters. It's like I hated watching a lot of the last two seasons but I think they were put in a pretty bad position by Martin. They couldn't fit all of the character and smaller storylines into the show(and even if they had where do they go with them?) and I'm not sold at all on Martin even knowing how all those storylines are going to fit together and finish the story. So they had all of that to tie together based on I believe a 2 hr meeting with George where they asked questions and took notes based on his answers and then also had to write convincing dialogue for all of the characters as the story progressed. So yes it all went off the rails but I'm not sure any writer could have stepped into that situation and done a job that would have made fans happy while also trying to follow the outline which Martin left for the final 2 seasons.

[cubby]

Episode 7.4 - Dany has to be talked out of burning a city to ashes (Kings Landing), again. This time it's Jon who does it. Third time Dany has wanted to burn a city to ashes and had to be talked out of it. Just in case anyone is keeping track of her fall to madness.

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Which is fair but also expected I think. More so given that these aren't really their characters. It's like I hated watching a lot of the last two seasons but I think they were put in a pretty bad position by Martin. They couldn't fit all of the character and smaller storylines into the show(and even if they had where do they go with them?) and I'm not sold at all on Martin even knowing how all those storylines are going to fit together and finish the story. So they had all of that to tie together based on I believe a 2 hr meeting with George where they asked questions and took notes based on his answers and then also had to write convincing dialogue for all of the characters as the story progressed. So yes it all went off the rails but I'm not sure any writer could have stepped into that situation and done a job that would have made fans happy while also trying to follow the outline which Martin left for the final 2 seasons.

I agree with most of what you're saying (aside from "it all went off the rails") - there was no way D&D could live up to what GRRM produced, especially if the circumstances are what your claim above (I'm not doubting you, just that you indicated you weren't sure yourself). D&D had tons of plot and story line to fuse together into an ending that was rushed, probably because of HBO. I thought it went well. Others didn't - and while I don't agree with the others who didn't, for the most part I respect their opinions on the matter.

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So........they're adapting two more novels as another project, and a third show they're executive producing, which Amanda Peet is writing and showrunning.. Good on them, they adapted the written material of GoT well. They're very good adapters.

Have you looked at their resume before GoT? It was literally godawful. One of them helped write the X-Men Origins: Wolverine movie, which was so bad they sewed shut the mouth of Deadpool, a character notorious for his wisecracking. Benioff also wrote Troy, which was meh, at best.

But also Netflix is notorious for tossing money on shit they cancel at many various stages, including and up to after 2 seasons. Netflix is profligate, as a production company. It's kind of a known thing in Hollywood.

I mean, are you D&D's publicist or something? An article about how they "walked away" from Star Wars (their childhood dream) is a publicist puff piece for saying that LucasFilm wanted to cut ties and they looked for something else before it was announced. Notice that they're mainly attached as EPs on these projects, and, as far as I can tell, aren't writing any of them.

Your entire point is based on information I had to provide you and you thinking your opinions are objective reality. Plus, you think Netflix would throw $200M at "very bad writers". You can go on, but I won't be responding to your posts on this matter in this thread. Enjoy your self-produced delusions.

[Adamas102]

E7.3 - Jaime confirms again, as he has the entire series, that Cersei is who he will die with. In his conversation with Olenna Tyrell after Jaime takes High Garden, Olenna says to Jaime "it's gone beyond your control" in regards to his love and commitment to Cersei, and he nods. Two other times in that conversation he confirms to being fully committed to Cersei. To me, that is episodic evidence that Jaime remained true to his character, at least the character that was built in the series, and fully justifies his ending and death.

That's NOT a good thing! Staying true to his character would be to complete his character arc. If he always just remains the man who would do anything to continue the toxic, incestuous relationship with his sister then there is no redemption arc. D&D seem to have made a point to deviate from the books in this respect, injecting lines about how nothing matters to him but Cersei while keeping scenes from the book where he bucks her influence more and more. Making for a confusing mishmash of priorities that is absent from the book. Up to the last few episodes we can stomach it as a "two steps forward, one step back" kind of progression, but if it's all SUPPOSED to culminate in him claiming he's hateful and wants nothing but Cersei then it's a narrative failure that takes 8 seasons to materialize. Sorry, but that's still a big strike against the quality of the show. If that is truly what GRRM intended (and I wholeheartedly believe it is not) then it's also on him for crafting such a pointless, stagnant character.

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Episode 7.4 - Dany has to be talked out of burning a city to ashes (Kings Landing), again. This time it's Jon who does it. Third time Dany has wanted to burn a city to ashes and had to be talked out of it. Just in case anyone is keeping track of her fall to madness.

That's not madness. That's frustration. Continually trying to do the right thing and be the good ruler only to be thwarted at every turn by people who are willing to be more ruthless. If threatening to be ruthless is a quality of someone descending into madness, then the ENTIRE CAST OF CHARACTERS is on that same brink. These examples are her pondering about whether she should take the easy route to conquest over the more difficult, slower one, and NONE OF IT points to her going all war crimes when she finally succeeds in her quest. The only course that would have made sense was for her to LOSE the battle for Kings Landing, and in a last ditch effort to to win takes the path of wanton destruction. Her doing so after a clear and decisive victory makes no sense and doesn't connect with the scenes you're referencing.

That's all they had to do. Have Drogon injured but not crippled, her army routed by the Golden Company, Greyworm killed, and with everything slipping away that's when she finally decides to do conquest by fire. She was never mad, and it was a terrible writing decision by D&D to try to shoehorn that in with a stupid scene of her listening to bells, but she COULD be pushed to unleashing her power in desperation. That would have made sense.

[RobertoCarlos]

That's just so obnoxious of you to say that - so arrogant. You might think that, and you're welcome to you subjective opinion, but you're wrong - objectively.

The thematic premise of the series wasn't lost in the last two seasons, and the characters remained "rational" in their decisions and choices - even Dany tipping over made perfect sense. I swear you people haven't really watched the last two seasons (of course you have, but your words indicate that you must have missed something). I'm watching the series again, and I'm in Season 7, and it's ALL dialogue so far - good dialogue. So for you to claim that the writing was "objectively very bad", when other people who know what they are talking about liked it very much, just shows that you are the one who really can't be objective in your evaluation.

And while popularity has never been a true measurement of quality, the continued piling on of fantastic projects is - and I as pointed out above, D&D continue to get newer and greater projects.

dude come on, how can you defend game of thrones.

I mean explain to me the treatment of Tyrions intelligence alone. Or Jon Snow being brought back to life to say "You are my queen" and "I dont want it" over and over again to only lead up to a pathetic high school play type situation where he stabs his now corrupt lover.

Its trash tier.

[eschatological]

Your entire point is based on information I had to provide you and you thinking your opinions are objective reality. Plus, you think Netflix would throw $200M at "very bad writers". You can go on, but I won't be responding to your posts on this matter in this thread. Enjoy your self-produced delusions.

But again, they're not writing. They've literally been paid "to bring new projects to Netflix." That's in the article you linked. They're literally cashing in on GoT's name, and the fact that they ran a big show (which has its own experience/skillset which maybe they're good at? IDK. Of course, they were showrunners when Emilia Clarke's Starbucks cup showed up in an episode that literally went live without catching anyone's eye).

One of the projects is being written and run by Amanda Peet.

Another project was written by someone else, with the help of the actual author of the book and his English translator.

The third project was pushed by Hugh Jackman, who is also an EP on it, and while it isn't specified who's writing it yet, it's another work based on a book, and a recent one at that, on which I'm sure the author will be consulting.

Again, they're taking Executive Producer roles, based on a combination of running a very large show for 8 years, and the literal branding it can have ("from the creators of Game of Thrones...").

[cubby]

Episode 7.4 - Varys and Tyrion are already questioning Dany's decisions when she start burning people alive.

Those of you who continue to harp on the lack of justification for the characters action in the last two seasons really ought to watch it again - it's pretty clear people missed clear and early indications, from a number of different characters.

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dude come on, how can you defend game of thrones.

I mean explain to me the treatment of Tyrions intelligence alone. Or Jon Snow being brought back to life to say "You are my queen" and "I dont want it" over and over again to only lead up to a pathetic high school play type situation where he stabs his now corrupt lover.

Its trash tier.

It's pretty easy to defend a great series that finishes well. Which has been clearly the case with Game of Thrones.

[jonnysensible]

i think what happened with the show is everybody apart from kit wanted to move on and were being offered other projects. So they slapped it together (which is why coffee cups and shit were knocking about) and got it finished. It was pretty bad.

[cubby]

i think what happened with the show is everybody apart from kit wanted to move on and were being offered other projects. So they slapped it together (which is why coffee cups and shit were knocking about) and got it finished. It was pretty bad.

All evidence to the contrary.

It was rushed though - I think one thing everyone can agree on is that once GRRM's material ran out, the series had to come to a close. No way that group could reproduce the detail that Martin put into each tome.

[Tojara]

I don't think so really. I think it's obvious the producers wanted to move on, and maybe some of the cast? Some of them were already fairly established actors prior to GoT, and others made names off of the series alone. Given what the TV/Movie industry is like, I doubt many of them wanted to jump ship immediately for other projects, let alone if most of them were being offered great roles anyway. Some of them? Sure, but it's far more than just Kit Harrington.

I'm still of the mindset the plot points (except Arya killing the NK) weren't awful, it's just how they went about presenting them. If season 8 were akin to the Alphabet, it went through A,B,C then skipped to K, then went straight to Y and Z. If the pacing had been proper like most seasons prior (which is what made the show so great to begin with) I doubt many people would've complained.

Daenerys being the mad queen over even another season would've made it a better pill to swallow. Jaimie going back to Cersei isn't a stretch in the slightest, but the way it was went about in the show was just dumb. That's just a few of them too.

[cubby]

I don't think so really. I think it's obvious the producers wanted to move on, and maybe some of the cast? Some of them were already fairly established actors prior to GoT, and others made names off of the series alone. Given what the TV/Movie industry is like, I doubt many of them wanted to jump ship immediately for other projects, let alone if most of them were being offered great roles anyway. Some of them? Sure, but it's far more than just Kit Harrington.

I'm still of the mindset the plot points (except Arya killing the NK) weren't awful, it's just how they went about presenting them. If season 8 were akin to the Alphabet, it went through A,B,C then skipped to K, then went straight to Y and Z. If the pacing had been proper like most seasons prior (which is what made the show so great to begin with) I doubt many people would've complained.

Daenerys being the mad queen over even another season would've made it a better pill to swallow. Jaimie going back to Cersei isn't a stretch in the slightest, but the way it was went about in the show was just dumb. That's just a few of them too.

I think that's one of the few problems with the ending that I agree with - the pacing. They definitely sped it up, but again, that comes down to the source material running dry. And Season 7's timeline is all over the place - people moved around too much, and too awkwardly, with bewildering results - the timeline around the fight where Dany lost the dragon to the NK is one example.

Dany's tipping to madness is well documented throughout the entire series - as I've objectively shown. The fact that people still argue against it is exactly why so few people come to this thread to say how much they like it.

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E7.6 Tyrion is discussing Dany's inability to have children. Talking about succession, etc. More fodder for Jon being the better choice for king, once his lineage is revealed to the characters. Also tipping her more towards the "madness".

[Adamas102]

Dany's tipping to madness is well documented throughout the entire series - as I've objectively shown. The fact that people still argue against it is exactly why so few people come to this thread to say how much they like it.

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E7.6 Tyrion is discussing Dany's inability to have children. Talking about succession, etc. More fodder for Jon being the better choice for king, once his lineage is revealed to the characters. Also tipping her more towards the "madness".

Hold on now...

As I noted in the last post, these examples you've pointed to are hardly evidence of madness. When she wonders whether she should burn down the slaver cities, they're in the middle of a siege and under attack be the terrorist group that had tried to kill her in the arena. I would say it's perfectly reasonable for a young, inexperienced ruler to believe her options for diplomacy have been exhausted. She's frustrated that despite her attempts to make peace (marrying one of the masters and allowing the fighting pits to reopen) have done nothing to quell the insurrection. It's not madness for her to think her only recourse is to annihilate these enemies who clearly will never comply with her no-slavery rule. Tyrion convinces her that she only needs to kill a few of them and make a show of force with Drogon, and she apparently takes his advice quite willingly. That isn't a sign of madness.

Daenerys considering a more forceful use of her dragons for conquest isn't a sign of madness. It's what her NON-CRAZY ancestors did. The original Targaryens who conquered Westeros did so with fire and blood and they were not considered mad. Executing people is not a sign of madness when there's a reason for it, such as soldiers who have fought against her and not bent the knee. The reason Aerys was considered mad for burning people was because in his paranoia he would simply burn people he THOUGHT were conspiring against him. He made it torturous and took sick pleasure in it, like when he burned Ned's father while his brother was chained up to watch. Dany doesn't make her executions a sport.

As for the children part, that's just laughable when they (including Tyrion) later determine that Bran not being able to have children is a GOOD reason to crown him king. Or could that have been another example of the writers just forgetting what they'd established in previous episodes, like what the bells mean.

[Witchblade77]

I think I'm actually not following your point about the deviation - are you saying when the characters in the book who also appear in the series deviated from their character arcs in the book they should have taken on different arcs at that point? Help me out - I am trying to understand.



This comment you're referring to was not directed towards you. I enjoy our discussions and particularly your knowledge of both books and series.

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1. you using that comment at all is dismissive and disingenuous. whether it was directed at me or not.

2. bolded - yes exactly. the moment they started changing timelines, plotlines, etc? sticking to the plotlines from the books stopped working, heck its why the scene between Cercei and Jamie at Joffrey's funeral ends up having a completely different feel from the one on the book. they made Jamie into a rapist in that scene. and then completely forgot about it, because in a book - it was not a rape. and I mean.. they pulled the same shit with Dani, but then still had her get all lovie dovey with Drogo... making it far more of a Stockholm syndrome relationship, but they just handwaved away the changes to their early interactions and characterizations. early seasons at least it was relatively minor. it gets worse as the show goes on.

also... this scene is from season 3. we get a small glimmer of what Jamie is really like, when his defensive armor of belligerence is stripped down from him and he allows himself to be vulnerable for a moment.



he wrestles with having to make a difficult, in some ways impossible choice, knowing that it will ruin him, knowing this was the right choice and yet he still wrestles with breaking his oath. and it has NOTHING to do with Cercei. the whole arc they were setting up for him wasn't even redemption. it was him coming to terms with making a choice that he did and living with it. He shares this with Brienne in a way that he didn't even share with Cercei. because Brienne? he trusts. because Brienne? IS honorable.

Jamie and Cercei is Harley and Joker relationship in some ways. and that relationship (between Jamie and Cercei) has been falling apart gradually through the series, and it culminated with him leaving her. not just because he IS honorable and made a promise.

watch how he looks at her, how his speaks to her when he leaves. and then tell me it makes sense for him to go back to her the way that he did?



edited to add. its possible to like something and still realize how flawed it is. just because you liked something, doesn't make it good.

I personaly very much enjoyed wonder woman 84. I also unironically love Dungeons and Dragons movie, the one with Jeremy Irons as a very hammy villain. neither of those movies are particularly good though and i do not have to justify my liking them by trying to explain away how they are "brilliant actualy" not really. I just had fun watching them and it was just fun enough to allow me to turn off my brain for a few hours. you may have loved GoT and that is fine. we all have our preferences and the lines we draw at how far we are willing to suspend our disbelief. but our subjective enjoyment =/= objective quality. and its the biggest issue with your arguments, honestly. well that and dismissing those that don't feel as you do as haters akin to trump supporters

[Jastall]

The thing with Jaime is that it's so incredibly sudden. End of S7 he ditches her, isn't shown longing for her unlike previous attempts, knights Brienne which is the culmination of their mutual respect as I saw it, fights the Walkers, so on and so forth. Then he... sleeps with Brienne, for whatever reason? And immediately after says he's a bad guy who wuvs Cercei, and spends the rest of his runtime either saying he wuvs her or dying in her arms. Nothing happened to visibly trigger this, no soul-searching was even implied, he just suddenly remembered that was where his character needed to end up and so sped back south. Same thing with Bronn who just shows up in Winterfell with his absolute unit of a crossbow, somehow sneaks to the Lannisters, sneaks out after threatening the both of them, and the next thing we know about him he's Lord of Highgarden and Master of Coin. Like, whu? Feels like there's half a dozen scenes missing to explain how the blazes that happened and why.

In general S8 had tons of moments where characters did nonsensical and/or totally rushed stuff to hurry what remained of their arcs along. That's just one reason it was so incredibly unsatisfying.