An AU Azeroth without the Orcs...

[geco]

no horde:

1. Without horde, there would be no alliance.
2. Without horde and aliance there would not be a final stand in hyjal.
3. Legion win.

Again, you are going against word of god with a strawman.

Did you take time to read what he wrote?
How will he see a fight on Mount Hijal without the Horde?

PS or are you rolling that you don't read because you're an Orc?

WC3's event were also pre-alteration from what happened in the War of the Ancients trilogy, so they portray a sequence of events absent Brox's appearance.

That was really what I was going to do. There are 2 timelines.

[Aucald]

That was really what I was going to do. There are 2 timelines.

From a narrative sense, yes. From an internal sense, the War of the Ancients trilogy's story essentially overwrote WC3's story with its alterations (e.g. Brox and Rhonin's meddling, the preservation of the Blue Dragonflight, etc. etc.) But WC3 does depict the unaltered timeline by dint of War of the Ancients not occurring chronologically until later on, closer to the period of the Orc's establishing themselves in Kalimdor. Time travel is weird.

[geco]

From a narrative sense, yes. From an internal sense, the War of the Ancients trilogy's story essentially overwrote WC3's story with its alterations (e.g. Brox and Rhonin's meddling, the preservation of the Blue Dragonflight, etc. etc.) But WC3 does depict the unaltered timeline by dint of War of the Ancients not occurring chronologically until later on, closer to the period of the Orc's establishing themselves in Kalimdor. Time travel is weird.

Chronicles 1 does not have the word Broxigar or the word Orc. (Ctrl + g and PDF)
Now I need to see if it is mentioned in Chronicles 3.

But if so then Cronicas kicked it as "two different lines of time joined."

--Edit--

If you read it, it comes out in Chronicles 3 and then there is a paragraph that gives you to understand that two timelines can "function" in certain situations to the point that the dead can revive.

So there are two realities, one with Broxigar and the one without Broxigar joined in the current one.

[Syegfryed]

Did you take time to read what he wrote?

did you take time to read what i wrote? you know, the part it says without horde there is no alliance?

How will he see a fight on Mount Hijal without the Horde?

it would be a fight that the night elves would fight alone and lose, do you know that right?

PS or are you rolling that you don't read because you're an Orc?

your pitiful attempt of making an unoriginal gag is not going to make your argument any good when it literally goes against word of god, you know that, right? you are still going against the canon.

[geco]

did you take time to read what i wrote? you know, the part it says without horde there is no alliance?



it would be a fight that the night elves would fight alone and lose, do you know that right?


your pitiful attempt of making an unoriginal gag is not going to make your argument any good when it literally goes against word of god, you know that, right? you are still going against the canon.

Who would they fight? because without the Horde there was no Legion in W3.
There would no be the Undead. No would Nerzul be. There will be no Lich king. There would be no Keltuzad. Archiomonde would not be there.

It would be the Elves against some demons.

PS: If the Kaldorei alone in the fight on Mount Hijal lose.
But that fight is not going to happen.

--Edit--
I'm starting to think that "the orcs are important" is rather "the orcs are important to solve the mistakes that we Bronze Dragons make."

[Ardenaso]

methinks the Legion would contact let's say Elisande or Dar'khan instead and let demons from within and then the said demons would do the work of opening the Tomb of Sargeras since no Azerothian can open it

- - - Updated - - -

on the other hand, the Night Elves defeated the demons with some help, I think they can do so again;

[Beloren]

methinks the Legion would contact let's say Elisande or Dar'khan instead and let demons from within and then the said demons would do the work of opening the Tomb of Sargeras since no Azerothian can open it

- - - Updated - - -

on the other hand, the Night Elves defeated the demons with some help, I think they can do so again;

There is a perspective that fate will auto correct any alterations you make tot he timeline.. therefore if there were no orcs, it would happen through an entirely different means.

Its possible, but the way the story is constructed.. the elves ran a very tight ship. The long vigil was very successful, this is what necessitated the way the legion worked.

The high elves were not taking chances too, they were very careful with their use of magic, only going wild with it under the covering the Ban'dinoriel afforded them specifically to make sure the demons won't come.

The demons start returning thanks to the human wizards interefering, perhaps the elves, impressed by the talent of humans and quite a few humans being good students perhaps thought that humans would share their values and views on safegaurding magic and responsibly using it.

remember, the psychology of the high elf is very much that of the long vigil night elf but without banning arcane magic. They agree with everything else. The Legion is terrible, addiction is bad (but can be avoided through discipline and rigour (remember they are surprised to find that they got addicted to the Suwnell's energy - and this is only discovered on its dispersion.. and when you look closely, the "type of addiction" is very different from that attributed to the Night elves (and ofc the nightborne). high elven one is more like you've been in the warm blanket that has a level of enhancement for so long you feel incredibly empty without it when it's gone, almost chronically. they weren't fatally doomed without it.. whereas the night elf addiction, especially the nightborne is more hardccore. Like when prescription medicine, rec drugs or rich foods are over indulged in you become totally hooked to them for the sweet way they make you feel.

The comparisons are not exact but they do indicate differences.

The high elves were very good at what they did, and very careful, all the elven groups were, and the night elves were successful in blocking all avenues.. this is why the legion has to find the orcs, to weaken the human kingdoms, draw their strength and launch against the elves with a battle hardened army they enhance or control which they add to with their forces totally overwhelming the elves regardless of their defenses.

without that route, it's hard to see how the Legion would work unless mother fate or ultimate God, interjects and say causes the elves to slip up, like getting through to an Elisande, Maiev or Dark'han or they do the Latosius trick the dread lords pull on the undead Ravencrest.. successful in posing as key elven figures and eventually weakening them.


Been watching superman and Lois and seeing how kryptionans and swapped into human bodies of townsolk.. then I remember how the Black Ajah in WoT works in secret amongst the Aes Sedai undermining the order to eventually set the Dark One free.. it would likely be a similar ploy like that no?

[Syegfryed]

Who would they fight? because without the Horde there was no Legion in W3.
There would no be the Undead. No would Nerzul be. There will be no Lich king. There would be no Keltuzad. Archiomonde would not be there.

You think all of that, the point is, you are thinking wrong.

Without the horde there would be a legion invasion regardless, that is stated by blizzard.

But that fight is not going to happen.

You are saying it would not happen, again, what you say is wortless compared to word of god, blizzard


without the horde, there would be no alliance and without then azeroth would fall, i don't know how they can be more clear.

[geco]

You think all of that, the point is, you are thinking wrong.

Without the horde there would be a legion invasion regardless, that is stated by blizzard.



You are saying it would not happen, again, what you say is wortless compared to word of god, blizzard


without the horde, there would be no alliance and without then azeroth would fall, i don't know how they can be more clear.

Sure but the question is "when".
If it were say in another 1000 years. Maybe Malfurion finished healing the World and the Kaldorei reproduced again and were much more to leave without help from anyone.

It is more I believe that in 500 years the alliance may form by itself when humans get tired of wars or after a great war (more or less what happened in the real world)

There is a perspective that fate will auto correct any alterations you make tot he timeline.. therefore if there were no orcs, it would happen through an entirely different means.

Then we would always win.

[Syegfryed]

Sure but the question is "when".´

it did not matter when, they would win, because that is made canon by the people who create the lore

You are literally, going against their word by creating headcanons and explanations to fit your point of view

If it were say in another 1000 years. Maybe Malfurion finished healing the World and the Kaldorei reproduced again and were much more to leave without help from anyone.

Again, that would not matter, because without horde and alliance azeroth would fail. horde and alliance are key points to it, if you remove one of then its fucked, no matter if you put a third non existent point.

It is more I believe that in 500 years the alliance may form by itself when humans get tired of wars or after a great war (more or less what happened in the real world)

you can believe all you want on a headcanon, but that does not mean it will happen, there would be no humans left to get tired of wars.

Then we would always win.

we would not, because no orcs, no horde, no alliance.

none of then, Legion win.

[geco]

it did not matter when, they would win, because that is made canon by the people who create the lore
....
none of then, Legion win.

Then we will always win.
Because the lore can't keep selling if we lose.

You are analyzing from a side that is not worth analyzing.

[Ardenaso]

I believe after all these wars, methinks that at least one kingdom would turn to the dark arts and eventually do the Thal'kiel; then boom! Legion!

- - - Updated - - -

There is a perspective that fate will auto correct any alterations you make tot he timeline.. therefore if there were no orcs, it would happen through an entirely different means.

Its possible, but the way the story is constructed.. the elves ran a very tight ship. The long vigil was very successful, this is what necessitated the way the legion worked.

The high elves were not taking chances too, they were very careful with their use of magic, only going wild with it under the covering the Ban'dinoriel afforded them specifically to make sure the demons won't come.

The demons start returning thanks to the human wizards interefering, perhaps the elves, impressed by the talent of humans and quite a few humans being good students perhaps thought that humans would share their values and views on safegaurding magic and responsibly using it.

remember, the psychology of the high elf is very much that of the long vigil night elf but without banning arcane magic. They agree with everything else. The Legion is terrible, addiction is bad (but can be avoided through discipline and rigour (remember they are surprised to find that they got addicted to the Suwnell's energy - and this is only discovered on its dispersion.. and when you look closely, the "type of addiction" is very different from that attributed to the Night elves (and ofc the nightborne). high elven one is more like you've been in the warm blanket that has a level of enhancement for so long you feel incredibly empty without it when it's gone, almost chronically. they weren't fatally doomed without it.. whereas the night elf addiction, especially the nightborne is more hardccore. Like when prescription medicine, rec drugs or rich foods are over indulged in you become totally hooked to them for the sweet way they make you feel.

The comparisons are not exact but they do indicate differences.

The high elves were very good at what they did, and very careful, all the elven groups were, and the night elves were successful in blocking all avenues.. this is why the legion has to find the orcs, to weaken the human kingdoms, draw their strength and launch against the elves with a battle hardened army they enhance or control which they add to with their forces totally overwhelming the elves regardless of their defenses.

without that route, it's hard to see how the Legion would work unless mother fate or ultimate God, interjects and say causes the elves to slip up, like getting through to an Elisande, Maiev or Dark'han or they do the Latosius trick the dread lords pull on the undead Ravencrest.. successful in posing as key elven figures and eventually weakening them.


Been watching superman and Lois and seeing how kryptionans and swapped into human bodies of townsolk.. then I remember how the Black Ajah in WoT works in secret amongst the Aes Sedai undermining the order to eventually set the Dark One free.. it would likely be a similar ploy like that no?

hmm perhaps if not high elves then perhaps Kel'thuzad who is a power hungry mage seeking immortality?

[Triceron]

You can "think" your headcanon all the way you like, without orcs legion would win, that is word of god from blizzard.Likking or not will change little.

Actually, you have it reversed.

Blizzard has said nothing about an AU Azeroth where Orcs never existed, and never once did they say the Legion would take over AU Azeroth if Orcs weren't there to fight. I think you are mistaken because the word of god of Blizzard has never touched an AU Azeroth where this happens.

It's funny you call it headcannon when we're talking about AU Azeroth, not MU Azeroth. It shows a lot about how you wish to argue for the sake of arguing considering you're talking about the wrong thing.

The closest is the alternate reality where Thrall dies and Blackmoore leads the Orcs and takes over the kingdom of Lordaeron. Blackmoore ruled past the time the Legion would have invaded with the Scourge attacks.

[Aurabolt]

The Black Morass Caverns of Time instance explains why the Orcs ultimately needed to come to Azeroth when they did.

Folks need to keep in mind the Legion and the Dreadlords have no problem with the long game. The Legion was basically "invited" to Azeroth by Azshara and that's what sparked the War of the Ancients. The Legion was embarrassed after having suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the mortal races for the first time ever and naturally, they wanted some payback. As others have said, the Legion would've hit Azeroth even without recruiting the Orcs. The Orcs were simply a means to an end. So was the Scourge. Both were meant to weaken the mortal races of Azeroth enough for the Legion to wipe them out once they arrived.

The Orcs were sent to weaken the Human Kingdoms since by that point they had already built an alliance with Quel'Thalas and they would have had some records of the War of the Ancients. The Legion would have been concerned the Human Kingdoms might reach out to the Night Elves and greatly bolster their defenses. That still happened when Jaina joined forces with Tyrande and Thrall but this was after most of the Human Kingdoms had been basically wiped out by the Scourge (Gilneas isolated itself behind the Greymane Wall by this point and Kul'Tiras had only just learned of what happened in Theramore).

The Legion sent in the Scourge as their Plan B when the Orcs were defeated at the end of WC2. The timing was there since the Human Kingdoms let their guards down and by the time they realized what was going on, it was too late. Even if the Orcs weren't used, the Legion probably would have sent in another force. The Scourge had to come after that first wave to clean up the remaining resistance because even with a Lich King, it can be very difficult to keep in check once unleashed.

[Sagenod]

For the sake of speculation I think we can ignore the deus ex machina type-shit Broxigar pulls.

What we know for sure:
The Dark Portal would have never opened, therefore the Blasted Lands would never have been created and that entire area would still be the Black Morass, an area akin to Swamp of Sorrows. The kingdom of Azeroth remains, allowing the humans to dominate the entire southern portion of the EK unimpeded. The sole aggressors to humankind of this area would be the jungle trolls, who would probably lose to the humans as the forest trolls to the north had.

No Orcs means no Ner'zhul and thus nobody to lead Kel'thuzad to start the Cult of the Damned. So the Scourge doesn't happen obviously, meaning Lordaeron survives and Quel'thalas isn't nearly destroyed. So up here the primary aggressors towards human and elvenkind, just like in the south, are trolls. Forest trolls of course! They would lose even harder, and probably be driven to eventual extinction or enslavement/assimilation by the superior forces of Lordaeron and Quel'thalas combined.

No Orcs also means nobody saves the Tauren from the onslaught of the Centaur, so they are probably wiped out, allowing the Centaur to continue growing in power and very likely come to dominate all of the non-forested lands of Kalimdor. It would be them versus the quillboars vying for dominance, with the Night Elves of the long vigil (which was never interrupted by opening diplomatic relations with the other races) continuing to control the forests. It's unlikely the Centaur or quillboars could stand against the Night Elves, Ancients and the myriad forces of nature they command. We could assume the Nightmare still exists, as that was due to the actions of Sargeras/N'zoth during the WOTA. Who knows how the druids' struggles against the Nightmare would have gone without the eventual aid of Tauren and Troll druids, as well as Horde adventurers that wouldn't even be there were if not for the leadership of Thrall.

There's a ton more implications I could look into but I'm busy atm. The world would be very different though, especially the EK.

[Beloren]

The Black Morass Caverns of Time instance explains why the Orcs ultimately needed to come to Azeroth when they did.
.

And it’s that explanation I find dodgy as hell.

Hey you need to be raped pillaged and slaughtered like cattle in order to survive and be stronger.

It’s rubbish philosophy.

They say conflict makes you stronger!


Is conflict the only place you gain strength from?
You survive conflict because you are strong
Sometimes conflict can make you stronger, but these wars devastate you, traumatise you, injure you, kill you and destroy most of what you had. Your end state is definitely weaker than before and you are more messed up.

It is because you are strong that you did survive or win and you are lucky you can endure and recover from mistakes that you survive.

All this rubbish that people feel they are entitled to second chances or it is their right. They are lucky such can even happen.

I guess the blizzard writers, or the philosophers they drew from for that explanation just don’t get it.

I’m sure the night elves would unanimously agree that they were stronger to fight the Legion before it destroyed them than they were afterwards.

All that 10k years hiding in forest on guard duty, fighting instead if rebuilding themselves completely like Illidan had wished for them and Darth’remar had argued for them. Yet without open understanding they literally ditched a core part of their strength, didn’t develop themselves to prepare against a return.

Their tactic was hide in a weakened state and prevent a second return. And that was their only play. No contingency. The first attack broke something in that lot. They could trust themselves with their magic enough to strengthen themselves. Maybe they were too traumatised and in grief. This is definitely not stronger, even if they did regain some measure of strength.

Despite their battle hardiness they were much weaker overall than they were in their pre sundering civilisation. Even with more humility and a better sense of responsibility. They developed some good things by their lifestyle but they could have made so much more of themselves and been much stronger to withstand a second legion invasion.

The war conflict made them weaker not stronger. They never rose to their pre sundering level of strength which while the strongest they’d ever been was not the strongest they can be.

Post WC3 left them even weaker. As did all the conflicts everyone fought from classic to 7’.0. No !!!!!! Azeroth defenders were much weaker because of the orcs and conflicts they had fought when the Legion returned.

It’s nonsensical for blizz to say it’s the fighting with the orcs that was necessary. Or at least for us to say we needed those fights to strengthen for the Legion. That’s bad logic, bad wisdom, in other words, nonsense.

People are saying the legion would have swept an unawares human kingdom apart. But how would they have done that with watching elves and ancients? Isn’t that why they employed the orcs in the first place? According to the story.


The very reason they give as to why the orcs were necessary is negated by the very story itself of the legions plan to infiltrate and use orcs then scourge.

Oh the human kingdoms would have fallen to infighting. Didn’t they still overcome that ? And the war against the orcs would not have left then any stronger than a war against themselves. In fact a war against themselves would have been better off because they had a sense of honour that did not involve mass genocide.

Whoever wrote that line was really not thinking. Either that or Medivh is lying or there is some other cosmic hand at play that saw every eventuality no matter how remote and decided this was the only one they survived the Legion.

But no one should think the orcs attack made Azeroth stronger. All they can say is without the orcs the ultimate victory over the legion would not have happened. But it will not be because the conflict made us stronger.

If I were to stick to the blizz explanation it would instead be how the journey shaped and put the key individuals and items used to bring the help we needed against the legion. Cos we certainly didn’t defeat them with our very weak and nearly utterly shattered armies and extinct populations.

That’s for sure. It was the Titan artifact, Illidan, us and a few key experts like Velen, Xe’ra, Alleria, Turalyon etc that make it possible.

Things that occur to give us access to the key things we need. It is certainly not our strength from being nearly wiped out by orcs then the scourge and then various crazies like Deathwing and Garrosh that lets us win.

[Syegfryed]

Then we will always win.
Because the lore can't keep selling if we lose.

You are analyzing from a side that is not worth analyzing.

You are analyzing from a side that is wrong, full of headcanons, is like saying if murlocs breed enough they could overthrow the legion, and thinking that is a possibility.

We only win with horde and alliance, period, and there is only alliance if there is horde, if you remove any variable is fucked.

[geco]

You are analyzing from a side that is wrong, full of headcanons, is like saying if murlocs breed enough they could overthrow the legion, and thinking that is a possibility.

We only win with horde and alliance, period, and there is only alliance if there is horde, if you remove any variable is fucked.

I repeat it to you.
Without Horde, there is no Legion.
Without a Horde, Alliance, or Legion, win the Kaldorei by default.

[Syegfryed]

Actually, you have it reversed.

Blizzard has said nothing about an AU Azeroth where Orcs never existed, and never once did they say the Legion would take over AU Azeroth if Orcs weren't there to fight. I think you are mistaken because the word of god of Blizzard has never touched an AU Azeroth where this happens.

Au azeroth is pointless and not important ebcause there is no world soul and the legion can give two shits about it.

The thing is, Legion want the world soul, without orcs there would not be horde, no alliance and LEgion win without the two factions, again, i don't know how they can be more clear that two factions are the keys to protect the world, not one, not one with other helpers, but two.

It's funny you call it headcannon when we're talking about AU Azeroth, not MU Azeroth. It shows a lot about how you wish to argue for the sake of arguing considering you're talking about the wrong thing.

AU azeroth have no world soul and the legion does not care about it.

but even if you that escape, it does not matter, AU zeroth would fall like MU, because there would not be alliance or horde, the events would happen the same.

No orcs, no horde, no alliance, without both legion conquer au azeroth anyway.

The closest is the alternate reality where Thrall dies and Blackmoore leads the Orcs and takes over the kingdom of Lordaeron. Blackmoore ruled past the time the Legion would have invaded with the Scourge attacks.

The legion again, would win anyway, sooner or latter, they are freaking immortals, they don't care about how many years it take

and since there would be no alliance or horde, Legion would win.

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I repeat it to you.
Without Horde, there is no Legion.
Without a Horde, Alliance, or Legion, win the Kaldorei by default.

ah yes, cause it was the horde who created sargeras and the demons.

no wonder why you are saying so much nonsense here, that explains a lot.

[geco]

ah yes, cause it was the horde who created sargeras and the demons.

no wonder why you are saying so much nonsense her, that explains a lot.

Because you keep ignoring the lore and comments conscientiously as always.

There is no legion in W3. Tamponco can come in Bc. nor in Legion.
Sargeras exists but there keep looking for how to enter.

And when he enters Azeroth he will have the strength to fight.
I mean, how much do we need to finally avenge the Legion?

PD:
It is more in legion, we beat the legion without the Alliance and without the Horde.