Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Big Thanks]

You shot yourself in the foot there. If the debate is over what should be done, "i don't care about the issue" is a relevant statement. If most people don't care, there's probably no pressing need to take any action at all.

As for your vaccine analogy, it really doesn't fit. You're erroneously presenting an extreme position as if it was common. Most people are interested in a vaccine if for no other reason than that they're sick and tired of the lockdowns.

If it helps we can instead of the word vaccine pick something meaningless.
The title of the thread is "Is WoW Pay to Win?"

Is this object round?
Is this an orange?
Is this a duck?
Is this a monkey?

[huth]

If it helps we can instead of the word vaccine pick something meaningless.
The title of the thread is "Is WoW Pay to Win?"

Is this object round?
Is this an orange?
Is this a duck?
Is this a monkey?

Are your questions meaningless?

The thing is "it doesn't matter" is a valid response to that question that is actually relevant to the discussion.

[arkanon]

If it helps we can instead of the word vaccine pick something meaningless.
The title of the thread is "Is WoW Pay to Win?"

Is this object round?
Is this an orange?
Is this a duck?
Is this a monkey?

Shadowpunk, you are not making any sense here - you are just replying with random thoughts not related to the discussion at hand AT ALL. There is one question being asked directly - is wow P2W, and then from that, others are discussing whether these particular systems are good or bad for the game - then we have you talking about Monkeys and Ducks.

[beanman12345]

I'm willing to wrap it up.

Boost is P2W by direct definition (if we go by a stretch that catch-up is P2W).
Token is P2W by a stretch of calling it indirect P2W.

Token is direct pay to win, despite what the 3-4 deniers in this thread and their terrible arguments otherwise think.

But sure, it's just convenience indirect P2W, like loot boxes ain't gambling, it's surprise mechanics.

[Kithelle]

A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.

I use a transaction called "Token" with real money and it gives me access to gameplay advantages (Getting rich in the game, with 190k or more in gold), which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself. (on this part, it takes weeks or months to get 190k depending on the player and his skills, no life players have tons of crafters and ways to do it....new players...don't).

Your problem here is that you don't believe that the gold is a win. That the gold is OP. Can i have all your gold?. Just tell me your server and i would love to keep it all....

The problem is that gold can be achieved in a reasonable time, just because you can't or wont doesn't mean it's not doable

How do you think people earn millions of gold to buy these mounts? You think everyone is spending hundreds of dollars for them?

[Darkeon]

How do you think people earn millions of gold to buy these mounts? You think everyone is spending hundreds of dollars for them?

Whether it's "Everyone doing it" is irrelevant. Be it gold, boosts, etc. The topic is whether it's possible or not.

[Kithelle]

Whether it's "Everyone doing it" is irrelevant. Be it gold, boosts, etc. The topic is whether it's possible or not.

The topic is if WoW is pay to win...you can obtain the gold is a reasonable amount of time without spending cash.

Just because players may be unwilling or unable to do it doesn't negate the fact it can be done, thus WoW isn't pay to win

[Darkeon]

The topic is if WoW is pay to win...you can obtain the gold is a reasonable amount of time without spending cash.

Just because players may be unwilling or unable to do it doesn't negate the fact it can be done, thus WoW isn't pay to win

Bolded is indeed correct.

The amount of people participating in said P2W components is irrelevant. That's why I challenged your "You think everyone is spending hundreds of dollars for them?"-rationale.

There are players who never touch these features on famous P2W games, namely mobile games. But the fact that the systems are in place are what makes these games P2W, not the amount of whales said game has.

[arkanon]

Bolded is indeed correct.

The amount of people participating in said P2W components is irrelevant. That's why I challenged your "You think everyone is spending hundreds of dollars for them?"-rationale.

There are players who never touch these features on famous P2W games, namely mobile games. But the fact that the systems are in place are what makes these games P2W, not the amount of whales said game has.

Its yet another frustrating thought process where people defend it by saying - yeah but you dont HAVE to participate in the P2W feature, therefore it is suddenly not P2W. Yes, mobile games are infamous for their egregious P2W features - most notably the time gated playtime - "this feature will take 1 week to unlock, OR you could unlock it instantly for 10 crystals! visit our in game store to purchase 10 crystals for $1.99. If you prefer, you can earn the crystals in game! with just a few hours gameplay per day, you could get 1 crystal/day!". In those scenarios, the person could EASILY just wait a week for the feature to unlock (eg the building to be built) or, they could entirely bypass that and pay the $1.99 and unlock it instantly. I dont know anyone who would say "now thats NOT P2W because a) they can just wait a week and b) they dont pay to unlock the feature, they pay for the crystals, so it is not P2W." and yet that is the argument being presented by a few in this thread.

[kaminaris]

Bolded is indeed correct.

The amount of people participating in said P2W components is irrelevant. That's why I challenged your "You think everyone is spending hundreds of dollars for them?"-rationale.

There are players who never touch these features on famous P2W games, namely mobile games. But the fact that the systems are in place are what makes these games P2W, not the amount of whales said game has.

Doesn't matter that "there are people who never touch shops in mobile p2w games". Its literally irrelevant.

Straight fact: People who get best items earliest don't buy boosts. They sell them. And those are real winners.

It is literally impossible to get advantage over them using money. Period.

If you would be able to get even close to them using money it might be considered p2w. But you can't. Without buying another boost you won't kill last boss on mythic, you won't win arena match, you can't do shit without carries, thus you cannot win.

And when it comes to p2w mobile games its pretty damn obvious when you constantly hit artificial walls in progression that CAN be overcame with money.

You can't buy weekly lockout reset in WoW. And that would be P2W.

[arkanon]

Doesn't matter that "there are people who never touch shops in mobile p2w games". Its literally irrelevant.

Straight fact: People who get best items earliest don't buy boosts. They sell them. And those are real winners.

It is literally impossible to get advantage over them using money. Period.

If you would be able to get even close to them using money it might be considered p2w. But you can't. Without buying another boost you won't kill last boss on mythic, you won't win arena match, you can't do shit without carries, thus you cannot win.

And when it comes to p2w mobile games its pretty damn obvious when you constantly hit artificial walls in progression that CAN be overcame with money.

You can't buy weekly lockout reset in WoW. And that would be P2W.

Again you are stuck on this idea that for something to be considered P2W you have to "beat" every single other player of the game - you are stuck on the fact the phrase has the word "win" in it, even though there is absolutely nothing suggesting a "win" is required to qualify, just that there needs to be an advantage. Even then, this advantage does not need to be over ALL players of the game, just an advantage you gained by paying, rather than playing.

A black-box is not black
someone might be driving me up the wall, and there is no wall OR car
And something can be P2W without you actually winning anything.

[Stardrift]

Doesn't matter that "there are people who never touch shops in mobile p2w games". Its literally irrelevant.

Straight fact: People who get best items earliest don't buy boosts. They sell them. And those are real winners.

It is literally impossible to get advantage over them using money. Period.

If you would be able to get even close to them using money it might be considered p2w. But you can't. Without buying another boost you won't kill last boss on mythic, you won't win arena match, you can't do shit without carries, thus you cannot win.

And when it comes to p2w mobile games its pretty damn obvious when you constantly hit artificial walls in progression that CAN be overcame with money.

You can't buy weekly lockout reset in WoW. And that would be P2W.

I can purchase power with a currency I purchased with ash. Factually, and definitively, that is P2W.

[Soon-TM]

The token is direct P2W your opinion is irrelevant.
The TCG lootcards are more complicated, Tcg cardpacks did not guarantee a lootcard. It's not P2W but it is a form of gambling. Peer reviewed research has shown a clear correlation between spending patterns on booster style games and problematic gambling behavior

While I overall agree, as for the bolded part there was a strong controversy in e.g. Path of Exile not long ago about the lootboxes they sell. Why am I bringing PoE forth? Because they had to implement a sort of cap to the amount of lootboxes you can buy per month, since there were people with huge gambling issues.. Even if PoE lootboxes contain strictly cosmetic stuff, and always have.

Now, imagine what would it have been like if those boxes had had player power associated to them via e.g. boosting.

[TheRevenantHero]

Doesn't matter that "there are people who never touch shops in mobile p2w games". Its literally irrelevant.

Straight fact: People who get best items earliest don't buy boosts. They sell them. And those are real winners.

It is literally impossible to get advantage over them using money. Period.

If you would be able to get even close to them using money it might be considered p2w. But you can't. Without buying another boost you won't kill last boss on mythic, you won't win arena match, you can't do shit without carries, thus you cannot win.

And when it comes to p2w mobile games its pretty damn obvious when you constantly hit artificial walls in progression that CAN be overcame with money.

You can't buy weekly lockout reset in WoW. And that would be P2W.

Ok well that's just your opinion about who is and isn't the "winners". The fact of the matter is if you can use real money to purchase power for your character then it's p2w. Which is exactly what the paid character boosts on the Blizzard shop are.

[Soon-TM]

P2W is you pay, you win. But in wow if you're shitty, you will not win even if you throw thousands bucks into game. You can just pay to other guys for win it for you. But its in any game (not nessesary MMO, all other computer games and even games in real life too), so this means any game is P2W.

In this case, there would be no problem with selling full mythic sets in the store, right? Because shitty players would still be shitty players even if decked from head to toes in mythic gear, wouldn't they?

[kaminaris]

Again you are stuck on this idea that for something to be considered P2W you have to "beat" every single other player of the game - you are stuck on the fact the phrase has the word "win" in it, even though there is absolutely nothing suggesting a "win" is required to qualify, just that there needs to be an advantage. Even then, this advantage does not need to be over ALL players of the game, just an advantage you gained by paying, rather than playing.

A black-box is not black
someone might be driving me up the wall, and there is no wall OR car
And something can be P2W without you actually winning anything.

No, that is something you are struck on. You can't beat ANY player that has some skill and puts some effort.

You gain advantage over those who don't care enough to put effort.

You are right about not this not being black-and-white. But in case of WoW you barely can go light gray. Gray is not even reachable with just money.

Your logic is literally like this:

This game is pay to win because I have a better gear from boosts than a dude that just collects battle pets.
This game is pay to win because I easily beat other guy that never played pvp before in arena


Now when it comes to REAL pay to win games, like lots of mobile games, you are literally hard stuck behind RNG/walls like:
- Cant upgrade the hero because you get maximum of 10 random upgrades per month and even if you would be insanely lucky, at best, you would be able to upgrade it in a week, while the alternative is insta upgrade from shop.
- Cant play more because your energy is zero, wait 24h for regen or buy unlimited energy from a shop.

Shadowlands is absolute garbage but even then I wouldn't even think of calling it P2W lol. Seems like some people never saw p2w game in their life.

[arkanon]

You gain advantage over those who don't care enough to put effort.

Cool - so without even realising it, you acknowledge that it is P2W.

- - - Updated - - -

Now when it comes to REAL pay to win games, like lots of mobile games, you are literally hard stuck behind RNG/walls like:
- Cant upgrade the hero because you get maximum of 10 random upgrades per month and even if you would be insanely lucky, at best, you would be able to upgrade it in a week, while the alternative is insta upgrade from shop.
.

Oh right, so EXACTLY like spending a LOT of time earning the gold, relying on RNG and time, OR, insta get the gold from buying a token. In both scenarios, you can do it yourself over time, or, you can pay and get the result instantly.

[InflaterMouse]

The main reason to buy power is to reach the end game goal. The only exception with gear is for transmog fashion. If you are merely buying gear but have no intention of completing the hardest content or are merely stonewalled by it, the person who paid for the end goal still has an advantage over you because they didn't have to waste their time with buying power and still achieved what you didn't.

I'm not sure I am following you. What you do with the gear really has nothing to do with the topic. The conversation is regarding the ability to get the gear in the first place or be able to boost levels. Unless I am reading what you typed incorrectly you actually contradict yourself in a single sentence.

- - - Updated - - -

Purchase gold with cash -> spend gold on power = P2W

/Thread

Where you purchase the gear from matters on P2W. Your still buying something a person farmed in game, with in game currency. Also, if you buy your sub with in game gold is it pay to win then? Because a person who can't afford the sub with real $ and doesn't have the gold in game to buy the token can't even play the game at that point. Think of how far EVERYONE who can will get ahead of them in game....

Edited to add: /Thread

[arkanon]

Where you purchase the gear from matters on P2W. Your still buying something a person farmed in game, with in game currency. Also, if you buy your sub with in game gold is it pay to win then? Because a person who can't afford the sub with real $ and doesn't have the gold in game to buy the token can't even play the game at that point. Think of how far EVERYONE who can will get ahead of them in game....

Edited to add: /Thread

You are quite mistaken here - and it has been pointed out MULTIPLE times to others who have made the same mistake. P2W is gaining an advantage over others who play the game - if they are not subbed, they are not playing the game, so they are not relevant to the discussion. This is an extremely simple concept to grasp, and the only reason someone would rely on such an obviously fallacious statement is because they have no real argument to use.

When i see people desperately clinging to such an obviously false claim, it reminds me of people saying "evolutionists believe we evolved from ROCKS! OMG were either of YOUR parent a fish? Mine wasnt a fish, and neither of them were monkeys either!". They are both really poor arguments, and simply do not hold up at all.

[Stardrift]

I'm not sure I am following you. What you do with the gear really has nothing to do with the topic. The conversation is regarding the ability to get the gear in the first place or be able to boost levels. Unless I am reading what you typed incorrectly you actually contradict yourself in a single sentence.

- - - Updated - - -



Where you purchase the gear from matters on P2W. Your still buying something a person farmed in game, with in game currency. Also, if you buy your sub with in game gold is it pay to win then? Because a person who can't afford the sub with real $ and doesn't have the gold in game to buy the token can't even play the game at that point. Think of how far EVERYONE who can will get ahead of them in game....

Edited to add: /Thread

I mean, I can still spend cash to receive power.