Blood elf fans should view void elves and high elves etc as their race and story

[Tanaria]

Indeed, they do not, because the sin'dorei are a different group, void elf lore isn't sin'dorei lore, but void elf lore and sin'dorei lore are both Thalassian racial lore. just not factional lore.

It is the lore of the same race. depends if your sin'dorei love is purely for for the faction or it is actually for the race itself.


You see, for me it's the race, within that race i like certain groups more, amongst the night elf race, I like the druids the most and the Darnassian faction the most, i hate the naga , but also like their coolness - it's okay not to love every element of the race.

Afterall, renegade night elves, be they satyr, druids of the flame, Nightmare druids, fel wardens, Nightborne invaders or rebel Farondis ghosts - they all add value and volume to the story of the race. Now I would love it if the Darnassians came out on top and grew to be the most powerful and effective night elf group.. same I'm sure you would fel so for the sin'dorei. But the other night elf factions are also night elves. Same with the other Thalassian factions.

Doesn't matter if they are both "Thalassian."

They are two different groups and are treated independently.

And I'd love for the Sin'dorei to just be the ones who get an updated Quel'Thalas, where we see further developments with the Horde races, specifically with the Nightborne and Forsaken. I'm not fussed about them being "the most powerful" because that's a pipe-dream. Sin'dorei are not the most powerful, just like Night Elves are not. Every race has it's merits and cons.

For example: Sin'dorei might make decent Warlocks, but the practice isn't common in Silvermoon and is likely frowned upon. The most powerful of the Warlocks would go to the Orcs (as far as playable races go.)

And I much prefer the Sin'dorei being on the Horde, because we can see how bad things are on the Alliance. Despite how bad BFA was, minus the Highmountain Tauren, each race of the Horde got some lore progression, no matter how big or small.
On the Alliance, it was mainly Humans, followed by Night Elves and then everyone else was just a token force. Void Elves and Dark Iron probably made the most immediate impact on the Zandalari and the Horde at Atal'Dazar, but everything else was just taken up by Humans and then, Night Elves.

[ravenmoon]

So if some original night elves are still alive today as blood elves then are they also part of the night elf story?

The fact this isn't the case si why the two groups are fully separate families at least for this portion of wow, despite their reltaions.

However if they were, I would count those living blood elves in the blood elf family as they continue to relate and operate to the blood elf faction and they are racially in the Thalassian, not night elven family group. They could serve an interesting purpose in relations with Nightborne and night elves whenever they came up, but they are still Thalassians.. and until the groups are presented as bigger family they are different.

Thalassian deal with the Eastern kingdoms, they have body of lore that rivals the night elves that has nothing to do with pre-sundering times nor the times Darth'remar was a Highborne night elf in the long vigil. This si why those portions of the high elf sires as Highborne are all kaldorei lore.. the Thalassian lore starts with the exile because this is where it differentiates from the night elves and has built an extensive identity.



The Nightborne don't qualify as that at all, they are entirely in the night elf identity.. if they were developed for another 7,000 years in a culture, with motiffs, behaviour and identities that used entirely different symbols and different characteristics and spawned all kinds of variations uniquely tied to that body of lore and activity, then they would be their own family. they are not however, they live in a night elf city they've always been , in a night elf civilization and culture, practising their magic in a night elven way, not a blood elven way, with night elven symbols and motiffs etc.

Naga are a bit more varied in that respect, but the same principle can be applied to them and Satyr - there isn't enough independent development for them, Azshara still considers herself empress of the night elves and queen of the naga, she's still an arcane witch, she just has more void powers and has been plotting world domination for herself and her new master - WE identify her as the Night elf queen more than anything, and her group is always tied to that lore.

Naga show up in night elf ruins vast majority of the time, even though their architecture is different it's a variation, they ahve the same ancient legacy and root that endures... unlike the Thalassians, they are not nearly entirely separate elven development, but one that is still night elf lore linked.

Naga will always fall under the night elf l ore category, as will Nightborne - check Chronicles if you don't believe. however, high elves blood elves, void elves have a new chapter and category devoted for them, because of how different and extensive they are.

For me a night elf is who is still a night elf.

the naga are sea monsters and most of them were born as nagas and were never night elves.

illiadari is a multi-racial faction

try and grasp the nuance and context of what I said.

The Illidari are still night elf based, having other races fight for them doesn't stop that, even if some of these races come from entirely different families. It's like saying the night elves are no longer night elf family group because dwarves and tauren and Draenei fight with them.
Truth doesn't only become truth when we realise it, it doesn't wait for us to understand it to be what it is. However when we understand it we awaken to it, and realise it, and can benefit because of it.

[Tanaria]

try and grasp the nuance and context of what I said.

The Illidari are still night elf based, having other races fight for them doesn't stop that, even if some of these races come from entirely different families. It's like saying the night elves are no longer night elf family group because dwarves and tauren and Draenei fight with them.
Truth doesn't only become truth when we realise it, it doesn't wait for us to understand it to be what it is. However when we understand it we awaken to it, and realise it, and can benefit because of it.

It's entirely dependent on whether you regards the Illidari as "Illidan" or if you treat it as a whole faction, where you'll find it is/was extremely multi-racial.

If you just think the Illidari as "Illidan" then you will believe that the faction is "Night Elf based." Even if somebody has a Blood Elf Demon Hunter and is it's new leader. Then the same could be said for the Alliance (Human) and Horde (Orcs.)
Obviously, these factions are not just one race. The Illidari, as far as the lore goes, was made up of different races (Blood Elves, Night Elves, Naga, Shivarra, Demons, Fel Orcs, Broken Draenei.)

[ravenmoon]

Why can't Blood Elf fans just get their wish of an updated Quel'Thalas for the Horde Blood Elves?
.

updating Quel'thalas would be updating blood elves, regardless if void elves , high elves, san'layna nd others are there..


What do you expect it to be? Blood elves going around singing kumbaya? Wouldn't they have to have enemies, and other things, maybe new allies, lore that involves all of Thalassian elves? You realise Quel'thalas is the home of the Thalassian elves right.. why does having night elves and undead scourge in there somehow not make it for the blood elves?

I haven't once seen you complain about the fact alliance dwarf, night elves and scourge undead were there.. did they make it less blood elven? How would the presence of the high elves make it less Thalassian? What is the zone and what does it represent?


No zone in this game is without conflict.. night elves had Ashenvale constantly occupied and eventually lost.. if that loss happened to Naga, Nightborne, druids of the flame, or nightmare, satyr, or trolls - it's still a loss, but at last with some of those groups it is still occupied by night elves just a different group of them.. and if occupied by orcs, it will continue to be a night elf zone until they change the zone have the orcs build over all the night elf sites with orc buildings, fell the great trees and have rolling plains and a few stragglers.. then it would no longer be a night elf themed zone, just one that was once upon a time night elven like all of Kalimdor and the eastern kingdoms was once.

[Rhlor]

The fact this isn't the case si why the two groups are fully separate families at least for this portion of wow, despite their reltaions.

However if they were, I would count those living blood elves in the blood elf family as they continue to relate and operate to the blood elf faction and they are racially in the Thalassian, not night elven family group. They could serve an interesting purpose in relations with Nightborne and night elves whenever they came up, but they are still Thalassians.. and until the groups are presented as bigger family they are different.

Thalassian deal with the Eastern kingdoms, they have body of lore that rivals the night elves that has nothing to do with pre-sundering times nor the times Darth'remar was a Highborne night elf in the long vigil. This si why those portions of the high elf sires as Highborne are all kaldorei lore.. the Thalassian lore starts with the exile because this is where it differentiates from the night elves and has built an extensive identity.



The Nightborne don't qualify as that at all, they are entirely in the night elf identity.. if they were developed for another 7,000 years in a culture, with motiffs, behaviour and identities that used entirely different symbols and different characteristics and spawned all kinds of variations uniquely tied to that body of lore and activity, then they would be their own family. they are not however, they live in a night elf city they've always been , in a night elf civilization and culture, practising their magic in a night elven way, not a blood elven way, with night elven symbols and motiffs etc.

Naga are a bit more varied in that respect, but the same principle can be applied to them and Satyr - there isn't enough independent development for them, Azshara still considers herself empress of the night elves and queen of the naga, she's still an arcane witch, she just has more void powers and has been plotting world domination for herself and her new master - WE identify her as the Night elf queen more than anything, and her group is always tied to that lore.

Naga show up in night elf ruins vast majority of the time, even though their architecture is different it's a variation, they ahve the same ancient legacy and root that endures... unlike the Thalassians, they are not nearly entirely separate elven development, but one that is still night elf lore linked.

Naga will always fall under the night elf l ore category, as will Nightborne - check Chronicles if you don't believe. however, high elves blood elves, void elves have a new chapter and category devoted for them, because of how different and extensive they are.


try and grasp the nuance and context of what I said.

The Illidari are still night elf based, having other races fight for them doesn't stop that, even if some of these races come from entirely different families. It's like saying the night elves are no longer night elf family group because dwarves and tauren and Draenei fight with them.
Truth doesn't only become truth when we realise it, it doesn't wait for us to understand it to be what it is. However when we understand it we awaken to it, and realise it, and can benefit because of it.

So are you telling me that sea monsters lizards are part of the night elf story more than those that are still elves?
The Illidari are a faction. the alliance is a faction that, like the illidari, is made up of different races.

the illidari in general are composed in pairs of night elf and blood elf
korvas and kayn, jace and allari, belath and asha

the second in command is kayn a blood elf

[Tanaria]

updating Quel'thalas would be updating blood elves, regardless if void elves , high elves, san'layna nd others are there..


What do you expect it to be? Blood elves going around singing kumbaya? Wouldn't they have to have enemies, and other things, maybe new allies, lore that involves all of Thalassian elves? You realise Quel'thalas is the home of the Thalassian elves right.. why does having night elves and undead scourge in there somehow not make it for the blood elves?

I haven't once seen you complain about the fact alliance dwarf, night elves and scourge undead were there.. did they make it less blood elven? How would the presence of the high elves make it less Thalassian? What is the zone and what does it represent?


No zone in this game is without conflict.. night elves had Ashenvale constantly occupied and eventually lost.. if that loss happened to Naga, Nightborne, druids of the flame, or nightmare, satyr, or trolls - it's still a loss, but at last with some of those groups it is still occupied by night elves just a different group of them.. and if occupied by orcs, it will continue to be a night elf zone until they change the zone have the orcs build over all the night elf sites with orc buildings, fell the great trees and have rolling plains and a few stragglers.. then it would no longer be a night elf themed zone, just one that was once upon a time night elven like all of Kalimdor and the eastern kingdoms was once.

I've already given ideas on what they could do, in terms of a "void" based expansion.

Obviously, Blood Elves won't be the sole race involved, but the questing/player experience will just be for the Horde.

Put some Naga, High Elves, rogue void elves, Humans, Amani, Scourge - we could have many different things involved, but it'll be a Horde location for the Horde Blood Elves of Silvermoon.

[ravenmoon]

I've already given ideas on what they could do, in terms of a "void" based expansion.
Obviously, Blood Elves won't be the sole race involved, but the questing/player experience will just be for the Horde.

Put some Naga, High Elves, rogue void elves, Humans, Amani, Scourge - we could have many different things involved, but it'll be a Horde location for the Horde Blood Elves of Silvermoon.

Well d'uh Tanaria, ofc.

This is not about void elves gaining Quel'thalas or high elves reigning,

This is not about a void expansion

This is not about alliance expansion

The whole point of this is to get the community to see differently, and maybe stop being so damned faction focused. Too often so consumed with trying to prevent the other enemy from getting your stuff, each can't seem the wider picture and stakes including the white flag and "I don't want to fight with you, but work with you" from a not small portion of the community in their faces.

This isn't even about a Quel'thalas revamp (don't divert to existing topics pls), it's about how you view races and cultures and trying to challenge the faction consumed mindset. We all must be capable of seeing past factional motivations, maybe because it's me suggesting it that makes it harder for some to see sheesh.

It is most logical fill a Quel'thalas revamped quest zones with things and groups pertaining to Quel'thalas regardless of whether they are horde faction or alliance faction or neutral, whether void elves or high elves and it has nothing to do with who "owns " the zone or controls it.. horde fans will argue for blood elves doing so, alliance fans for high elves or void elves - that's not what I'm interested here.

At least you seem to recognise that having them there is part of your adventure. You don't expect a revamp zone to be some sycophant fan service with nothing to do but go around NPCs that say oh look how magical the blood elves, look how wonderful Quel'thalas is, here is a quest, go round and listen to the NPCs view about themselves . Let's have an apple tossing contest. - (although I sometimes wonder if that's exactly what some die hard fans want)

If you want it to be about blood elves, it will have high elves and void elves, because they concern blood elves. this is exactly why night elf stuff will always and often have Highborne and arcane stuff as well as satyr and naga stuff, demon hunter stuff and other things from their lore. it's part of what they are about and this gets explored in their homeland

I'm sure are not going to ignore and deny Quel'thalas is the homeland for high elves and void elves too because you love blood elves and feel the zone should be theirs only. I'm sure you recognise the zone is going to be about Thalassian elves and develop their lore, whether it is blood elves that end up controlling it all through or not, the whole point, in the context of the topic, is that it shouldn't matter either way from the view of the race as a whole .. it will be Thalassian centred and focused. The problems they have to deal with, their internal politics, external politics, factional allies and enemies too etc.

Whether it is ghosts, or demons or high elves or blood elves or scourge, or amani trolls. Troll fans will say it was troll land anyway.

When are we going to view this outsdie the bracket of you're horde, that's not me?

[Dazmalak]

Why should anyone care about any racial lore when they've effectively made everyone the same generic good guy on Team Azeroth?

[Imperator4321]

While i'm neutral on elves in general (across most fantasy not just wow) figured i could comment on this.

Night Elves, Nightborne, Blood Elves and Void Elves all share background & lore but that doesn't mean their individual storylines are as the "same" or always related, the writing for the most part treats these races as seperate entities, rather than part of any whole "elf" story until they intersect.

The Nightborne story in Legion only really became part of Night Elf and Blood Elf "story" when both races showed up to assist the Nightfallen in assaulting Suramar, it served a purpose in advancing their story and characterization by showing the attitudes of both to the Nightborne, Tyrande being scornful and distrusting due to the Nightborne repeating the Highborne's history by aligning themselves with the Legion and Liadrin being supportive and sympathetic since she saw parallel's to her own peoples struggle with arcane dependency.

As for the San'layn/Darkfallen, not really the San'layn only existed to be the "vampiric" part of the Lich Kings Forces (basically replacing the nathrezeim), them being Elves was mostly irrelevant and didn't really do anything to "advance" the lore, story or characterization of the Blood Elves, same with the Felbloods (i'm assuming your referring to Kael'thas forces in the Sunwell Plateu) they existed to be the Burning Legions lackeys, at most they show the fate the Blood Elves avoided by turning away from Kael'thas, the Illidari Blood Elves are more defined by their associating with Illidan than with any aspect of the Blood Elves story.

I'd say it's overall reductive, should trolls players view Elf-related stories as theirs because elves are mutated trolls?, should the human players view the Vrykul story in Legion as theirs because Humans are descended from Vrykul? or how about Darkspear Trolls and Zandalari Trolls? a story that exclusively focuses on the Zandalari wouldn't do anything to advance the story or characterization the Darkspear and vice versa, same with Void Elves/Blood Elves and Night Elves/Nightborne, Kul'Tiran/Stormwind, for a Blood Elf story to also be a Void Elf story they both need to be equally represented in whats being told.

Void Elves and Blood Elves only share stories when the two are equally involved in whatever story is being told, if we got the cancelled Silvermoon Warfront (which presumably would have involved Alleria & the Void Elves) then yeah i'd probably would have called that a "Blood Elf and Void Elf story" since it serves to advance both races story, but if a Void Elf plot just involves them with to representation of the Blood Elves then no it's not a "blood elf story" because it's not something that advances the Blood Elves story or characterization.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

The zone might have high elf and void elf involvement, but telling it from the Horde perspective - these forces will be pushed back and likely, out of Quel'Thalas (probably the Ghostlands and pushing them into the EPL)

And this is about trying to just view everything where one group are involved, counts as lore progression for all...it doesn't, otherwise the Sin'dorei heritage armor questline is extra void elf lore. See how ridiculous that looks..?

I seem to think that this is a follow on from you wanting the main bulk of thalassian lore to be on the Alliance.
Every Sin'dorei fan will tell you that, that is not the case.

So - to the title of this thread:
No, Sin'dorei fans should NOT view void elves and high elves as their story, because they aren't.

[ravenmoon]

The zone might have high elf and void elf involvement, but telling it from the Horde perspective - these forces will be pushed back and likely, out of Quel'Thalas (probably the Ghostlands and pushing them into the EPL)

Still on about the zone huh ... you know if the quests involves other groups, you know you will see their perspective regardless.

Don't feel offended if you see some nice stuff there though. Just enjoy it for what it is. You seem to be so desperate that horde blood elves aren't left behind even in discussions where it is not about being on the horde, your missing so much, including enjoying the adventure and that it's improving your race lore.

And this is about trying to just view everything where one group are involved, counts as lore progression for all...it doesn't, otherwise the Sin'dorei heritage armor questline is extra void elf lore. See how ridiculous that looks..?

Sin'dorei heritage armor is to give you exactly that .. the past it explores is relevant to all Thalassians, not just Sin'dorei.

A void elf /high elf fan and player can do the same quest on a horde toon and enjoy the lore it reveals about their race, even if the reward only exists for the blood elf horde player

I seem to think that this is a follow on from you wanting the main bulk of thalassian lore to be on the Alliance.
Every Sin'dorei fan will tell you that, that is not the case.

THe whole point about this is that it's Thalassian lore, not alliance or horde lore.

Don't confuse my posts in another topic that talked about how to improve the alliance faction's popularity amongst players and the steps I felt would do the trick , with this topic which is about the race.

So - to the title of this thread:
No, Sin'dorei fans should NOT view void elves and high elves as their story, because they aren't.

The title of the thread should not be removed from it's content that gives the context of the title. To do so will be to once again get what's been said wrong. Teh body of the topic expounds to explain to you it's the same race, and you should view it that way because it is.

Try to shift your perspective from it's all about my side, to maybe there is more involved.

[Tanaria]

SNIP.

Same species, but now different beliefs.

The Sin'dorei do their thing, which is for Sin'dorei lore progression
The void elves and high elves do their thing, which is for their lore progression/s.

Void Elves and High Elves are NOT Sin'dorei. Sin'dorei fans won't count them as lore progression for their race, as a whole because the whole "Thalassian" thing is split. You have the Alliance ones and the Horde ones.

I don't even think blizzard would count lore for the void elves as "Sin'dorei lore progression" nor would they expect their Sin'dorei fanbase to do so either.
All of this is just one's opinion. I don't view void elven and high elven lore as Sin'dorei lore.

I mean, if only Void Elves got lore, should that deny the Blood Elves get any lore?
"Well, we've had our Thalassian Elven lore. Maybe Blood Elves should wait until the next expansion."
That doesn't mean anything, accept keep races in very tight boxes, with no room to actually get lore.

[Tarba]

Void elves are a sad joke.
High elves have been renamed blood elves after the scourge invasion. Therefore does not exist anymore.
You are refering to bloodelves who chose to leave Quel'thalas and took arms against their brothers.

Let's just call them "blue elves" so we don't ternish the memory of the fallen who died for their lands by calling them like those who chose to be at war with the survivors.

[HawkonBloodeye]

Read the official high elf thread please. No need to repeat history in this thread. Over 1k posts if I remember correctly.

[Rendark]

But everyone knows void elves suck.

[ravenmoon]

"Well, we've had our Thalassian Elven lore. Maybe Blood Elves should wait until the next expansion."
.

If this is what you think this is about, then you really haven't been listening. you really sound closed minded over this issue. I'm sorry you can't look past our forums banter nor see outside the red and blue line.

This stubbornness is making you fail to see what's been said, or maybe you do see it, but just too stubborn to understand or accept it.

[Tanaria]

If this is what you think this is about, then you really haven't been listening. you really sound closed minded over this issue. I'm sorry you can't look past our forums banter nor see outside the red and blue line.

This stubbornness is making you fail to see what's been said, or maybe you do see it, but just too stubborn to understand or accept it.

Nothing to accept and their isn't an issue.

Sin'dorei fans won't see void elves and high elves as lore progression for the Sin'dorei or see them as the playable Blood Elf race.
It's not an issue, it's never been there...

[Raisei]

Let us face the truth: The Void Elves are what the Blood Elves should have been for years and what they could be again if they stopped following genocidal maniacs for no reason.

Why should anyone care about any racial lore when they've effectively made everyone the same generic good guy on Team Azeroth?

Because not everyone plays the game to be on evil side? In fact few people do.

[Sagenod]

I understand your point OP, but this isn't something that can be fixed.

I often speak on the nuanced nature of the factions of Azeroth and how they should be viewed as such. Of course that's usually not the case due to faction pride that has been built by two decades of storytelling. It's almost like the republicans and democrats at this point isn't it? Some people, many people, are indoctrinated and so far against the other side that they are incapable of having a truly enlightened perspective.

How do most people view the conflict in Game of Thrones? I would argue most people are in the middle, perhaps siding with the Starks (the underdogs) more often than not. But it's the individual characters within the Starks we side with, not necessarily Winterfell as a whole especially after a certain psychotic family takes over. With the Lannisters we love to hate Cersei right? But with Jaime we watch him evolve over the course of the show and grow to understand his motivations and sympathize with his struggles. Daenerys comes from a family of supremacist tyrants but we are on her side all the way through because of her as a person. (season 8 not withstanding)

Point is, having a nuanced understanding of the story is what allows for a greater perspective of it as a whole instead of a close-minded viewpoint borne from a limited experience.

[Ielenia]

Void Elves getting Tempest Keep, Duskwood and sharing Eldre'Thalas does nothing for the Sin'dorei story.

I'd rather not get a copy of the draenei's city for the void elf. The lightforged already have the Vindicaar that is basically another Exodar with slightly different colors.

I prefer if the void elves got their own city with their own architecture.