[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[listo95]

def. not all MSQ .. I've only unlocked flying in maybe 1-2 zones and had to look up what other quest you need.

They're not all MSQ, some are "side quests" but they're marked and therefore easily recognizable and usually pretty short.

Yeah that was my bad, did it after a long work day and misread the location for the currents. But like was mentioned they are easily recognizable because its a quest marker with a blue background and + in the corner.

[cuafpr]

Yeah that was my bad, did it after a long work day and misread the location for the currents. But like was mentioned they are easily recognizable because its a quest marker with a blue background and + in the corner.

no worries and i learned about the blue quest via google when it appeared i needed flying for a quest... and apparently, I'm wrong on when blizz dropped old expac flying requirements.

[Granyala]

maybe for current content but for legacy content not true imo

Been a while since I played WoW but don't you still have to grind reputations gated via daily quests in legacy content in WoW?

[cuafpr]

Been a while since I played WoW but don't you still have to grind reputations gated via daily quests in legacy content in WoW?

not in legacy content you can just fly... it seems i was wrong on when this change was made i thought they pulled pathfinder in from WoD and back during BFA or late legion. I just want a game to give me flying with zero hoops to jump through

[Katchii]

I just want a game to give me flying with zero hoops to jump through

I don't know of any game that does this, really.

This is just laziness or entitlement, I'm not sure which. You want rewards? Earn them by playing the game. And earning it in FFXIV is not even that hard.

[cuafpr]

I don't know of any game that does this, really.

This is just laziness or entitlement, I'm not sure which. You want rewards? Earn them by playing the game. And earning it in FFXIV is not even that hard.

Its neither? It's an enjoyment of flying and think once earned once it should be permanently granted and part of the gameplay as much as ground mounts? Neither WoW or FF14 make it "hard" it's just which is a subjectively better approach based on a person's opinion

[Katchii]

Its neither? It's an enjoyment of flying and think once earned once it should be permanently granted and part of the gameplay as much as ground mounts? Neither WoW or FF14 make it "hard" it's just which is a subjectively better approach based on a person's opinion

In both games flying is permanent once earned on the character you earn it with, or in the case of WoW, once you complete the requisite achievement on the account and then reach the appropriate level and then buy the appropriate riding training on that character.

I'm confused about what you're saying though. You said you want it without jumping through hoops but are also OK with earning it, which is "jumping through hoops."

Can you clarify what you mean?

[cuafpr]

In both games flying is permanent once earned on the character you earn it with, or in the case of WoW, once you complete the requisite achievement on the account and then reach the appropriate level and then buy the appropriate riding training on that character.

I'm confused about what you're saying though. You said you want it without jumping through hoops but are also OK with earning it, which is "jumping through hoops."

Can you clarify what you mean?

in wow it was earned TBC and has to be re-earned each expac so it's not earned once and permanent.. we don't have to re-learn ground mounts over and over (not counting the MAW....) To me, the ideal way is once flying is added to the game you earn it then, and from that point on you can flying in every zone, new content right at the release of new expacs etc..

Imagine if each time WoW or FF14 put out a new expac you had to walk till max level then get a ground mount, I'm guessing most people would not be happy. Does that explain it better?

[Katchii]

in wow it was earned TBC and has to be re-earned each expac so it's not earned once and permanent.. we don't have to re-learn ground mounts over and over (not counting the MAW....) To me, the ideal way is once flying is added to the game you earn it then, and from that point on you can flying in every zone, new content right at the release of new expacs etc..

Imagine if each time WoW or FF14 put out a new expac you had to walk till max level then get a ground mount, I'm guessing most people would not be happy. Does that explain it better?

Yes it does, but my opinion stays the same. That's a bit lazy and entitled. As I said, I'm not aware of any game that does this, and if you want to earn the reward of flying, earn it.

You're asking for flying, a mechanism that allows you to skip over and bypass the ground level content (which is pretty profound), to be given to you after you've earned it once in one specific area and be with you forever after, including in brand new zones that don't even exist yet.

Ground mounts are an entirely different thing because you stay on the ground with them, so having to re-earn them wouldn't be meaningful, whereas with flying it is because of all the benefits flying gives you.

[cuafpr]

Yes it does, but my opinion stays the same. That's a bit lazy and entitled. As I said, I'm not aware of any game that does this, and if you want to earn the reward of flying, earn it.

You're asking for flying, a mechanism that allows you to skip over and bypass the ground level content (which is pretty profound), to be given to you after you've earned it once in one specific area and be with you forever after, including in brand new zones that don't even exist yet.

Ground mounts are an entirely different thing because you stay on the ground with them, so having to re-earn them wouldn't be meaningful, whereas with flying it is because of all the benefits flying gives you.

that's b.c. flying in games currently allows the skip the goal should be flying is just like gound maybe faster sure, but part of gameplay nearly as much as ground mounts, its not hard theoretically ... flying mobs, mobs with ropes/hooks/cannons.. some of this has even been done b4 in-game. And its not like you can't just run through a pack of mobs mounted esp in FF14.... but this is starting to trending off-topic. thus we will just have different opinions

[Granyala]

I just want a game to give me flying with zero hoops to jump through

XIV is as close as can be. Complete story -> fly. The rest is basically taken passive along the way.

[Katchii]

that's b.c. flying in games currently allows the skip the goal should be flying is just like gound maybe faster sure, but part of gameplay nearly as much as ground mounts, its not hard theoretically ... flying mobs, mobs with ropes/hooks/cannons.. some of this has even been done b4 in-game. And its not like you can't just run through a pack of mobs mounted esp in FF14.... but this is starting to trending off-topic. thus we will just have different opinions

I'd rather flying be left as is.

Primarily because I like how flying is such a reward because it allows fast, unimpeded travel, with far fewer obstacles and much more freedom of movement. It's very freeing. That feeling of freedom would be completely diminished if flying mounts had just as many obstacles to worry about as ground mounts.

Which ties into the development perspective, if the intention would be to make flying mounts have just as many things as ground mounts to worry about, why spend the time on developing that stuff? It would be pointless.

[Granyala]

And its not like you can't just run through a pack of mobs mounted esp in FF14....

Actually: you can. Fare more so than in WoW
1) mob density is A LOT lower
2) Mobs have realistic vision, meaning: if you stay behind them, they will not aggro
3) they can't knock you off your mount. Some mobs can apply heavy though.
4) they reset in 1/10th of the distance compared to WoW

Given the fact that you have very little reason to return to any given overworld zone in XIV, I feel that there is no need to make flying annoying. Also, there is no world PvP, so even that argument is not a concern.

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To me, the ideal way is once flying is added to the game you earn it then, and from that point on you can flying in every zone, new content right at the release of new expacs etc.

We had that in Cataclysm and even as a die-hard pro flyer I had to admit that it was lame. The worlds story is best presented on the ground. It just gives the developers a lot more design freedom to guide the player and control what the player sees at any given time.

Flying should be an endgame convenience, when you only enter the world to farm materials or to do repeated content.
TBC, Wrath and MoP did flying right. Cata was "too soon, Executus" and everything that came after MoP was just the DEVs being bone headed idiots.

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Imagine if each time WoW or FF14 put out a new expac you had to walk till max level then get a ground mount, I'm guessing most people would not be happy. Does that explain it better?

Ever played Eureka? There, the DEVs tried that. It sucked.

Imho, most MMOs wait far too long to introduce ground travel. It makes sense to walk when all you do is quest in a very small starter zone. But to walk across half the countryside was nothing more than the lamest of all time sinks. Needing lv f*** 40 to get a slow ass ground mount in WoW was ... not one of it's charms.

[ippollite]

I like the flying mini game in ff14. It's a genuinely fun part of my questing to hunt down the aethyr currents. To each their own of course. I've just started stormblood, and honestly its one of the things im really looking forward to doing. Its nice that i get it in that zone and can flap about there to my hearts content. It beats the crap out of waiting until ive finished the entire campaign before the game lets me. I like that its a nice reward for playing the game.

[Kalisandra]

I like the flying mini game in ff14. It's a genuinely fun part of my questing to hunt down the aethyr currents. To each their own of course. I've just started stormblood, and honestly its one of the things im really looking forward to doing. Its nice that i get it in that zone and can flap about there to my hearts content. It beats the crap out of waiting until ive finished the entire campaign before the game lets me. I like that its a nice reward for playing the game.

I don't know if I got it in Stormblood before I stopped playing. As I said elsewhere, last time I played I logged out on a boat with a storyline dungeon waiting. As a result, if I re-sub I'll probably have to do a bunch of side stuff to relearn how to play before moving along the storyline.

[ippollite]

I don't know if I got it in Stormblood before I stopped playing. As I said elsewhere, last time I played I logged out on a boat with a storyline dungeon waiting. As a result, if I re-sub I'll probably have to do a bunch of side stuff to relearn how to play before moving along the storyline.

If thats a bit of a wall to continuing you could play through another job just to get back into the game? Im just starting a red mage, and figure i'll use that time to level up some of the beast tribes i missed out on in arr and hw (and some other challenge log stuff). I figure that'll catch me up to my main pretty effectively.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

On the topic of flying, it would be nice if maps (or perhaps certain areas of maps, not the whole map/zone) were designed so that you will do the content with flying in mind. Ie, like GW2's HoT maps. Because in pretty much every other MMO, the maps aren't designed with flying in mind; they're designed so that you do the content on the ground... and then after you've done all of the content (in FFXIV you can't fly around a zone until after you finish the story there), you can fly around and skip over all of the obstacles, so there is no gameplay while flying. And the hovering in mid air flying like WoW and FFXIV does it isn't fun gameplay.

The best flying systems are ones that make flying a skill, not a cheat/shortcut.

In WoW, using your glider is really fun, because it requires skill to use. You have to try to find the best way to use your player abilities and items (ie, knockbacks and/or movement speed buffs) to get you the best start you can, and then have to try to navigate around turn and make the best use of your glider before you land on the ground. Usually, your glider falls at a fast enough rate that you can't just fly across an entire zone, so it will help you get across fast but still gives you ample opportunity to explore on the way to your destination, see other players, talk to NPCs, etc.

In GW2's HoT expansion, they added a pseudo flying mount, called the Griffon. It differs from your typical MMO flying mount in that it has limited flight capability. Basically, it's a glorified glider. It can't fly forever. It has a momentum system, where if you dive and lose altitude, you will gain momentum and travel A LOT faster, but if you try to ascend, you will lose momentum very quickly. As you glide at a normal speed, you gradually lose momentum. So the fun comes from trying to get as far as you can towards your destination, while navigating around obstacles and conserving as much momentum as you can. If you are super duper skilled, you can fly very, very far and lose little altitude, but it is difficult. It feels really fun to fly around in GW2, dropping like a rock and gaining speed, and spreading your wings at the last second and soaring across the landscape at high speed for a few seconds.





The problem always seems to come down to FFXIV's engine. Looking at the input delay, a responsive GW2's esque flying system would be impossible, and I am unsure if the engine can support basic physics for something like WoW's gliders.

[Granyala]

I dont think eureka sucked, nor did the devs at the end of it.

The "no riding till max level part" definitely sucked.

[Granyala]

There was no such statement and I even don't know how you arrive at the conclusion.

No clue where you read that I was citing developers, when I obviously spoke about personal and community experiences.
Yeah I know that WoW DEVs had some internal preference shift and suddenly a hard-on for ground travel. Doesn't automatically make them right, even if it is "their game" to do with as they please.

BTW: pretty much all discussions in forums like these is from a personal player PoV, so if you are not interested in that, maybe you should refrain from participating? I'm not aware of any game DEV that would be posting here and giving you "officially sanctioned" preferences.

[Granyala]

There is a difference between the experiences of a player and discussing other stuff or thinks in absolute terms

Which is why I did both.
In absolute terms: yes, restricting players (not just in regards to travel) gives any game DEV more freedom in his design and presentation. When I can fly in Icecrown right away, I can see the big Citadel from the start. When I can't, the DEV can carve a story loaded path, winding through the zone to guide me on an adventure.

That is one reason why I felt (hint: subjective terms inc) that Cataclysm leveling fell flat. Because there was no guidance, just a methodic processing of quests.

However, there is also the opposite side of the coin, which would be needless restrictions just for the sake of timesink and tedium:
Not being able to ride in Eureka served no story driven purpose at all. They just wanted us to take longer.
Not being able to fly once you explored the zone and did the story in WoW, when all that is left is repeatable world quests you already did before did never serve any purpose whatsoever. Except again: timesink.

Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of the whistle. DEVs harping on and on about "immersion" yet somehow some instant bird-teleport whistle is more immersive than my bird that can fly in 80% of the world suddenly not being able to fly in the remaining 20% especially when the whistle calls the same damn bird?!

Give me a break. The motives here were clearly not gameplay or immersion related, I don't care what the DEVs spout as their public excuse.