Blood elf fans should view void elves and high elves etc as their race and story

[Dazmalak]

Let us face the truth: The Void Elves are what the Blood Elves should have been for years and what they could be again if they stopped following genocidal maniacs for no reason.



Because not everyone plays the game to be on evil side? In fact few people do.

I said everyone is a bland, generic good guy, but that doesn't mean we -have- to go in the completely opposite direction and start twirling mustaches and plotting murder.

Well, I suppose you could do that, and then justify it by claiming moral superiority and "it was the right thing to do, their side was evil" when your opponents just don't bow down and do things your way.

But seriously, you aren't even close to understanding what I was getting at so allow me to explain with an analogy.

A plain cake donut is a plain cake donut. You can wrap it in any kind of package you want, but it doesn't change the content inside the box: a plain cake donut. You can make the container red, blue, white, or just brown cardboard. It can have a fancy design or no design, but it will never change the donut inside.

In WoW, the races are represented by the box and their ideologies and goals are represented by the donut. In this case, the particular donut is a plain, boring cake donut (human Alliance) that's been on the shelf for months. It is stale, has little to no flavor, and has simply been repackaged in all kinds of different boxes (the races of Azeroth) to make it more appealing on the shelf, but offering nothing more on the inside.

Night elves, blood elves, draenei, orcs...every single race in Warcraft right now has no culture outside of "generic human goodness". I would argue the human Alliance doesn't even have a culture at all. You can't make the stale donut taste good by throwing it in a different package. It needs to be freshly baked, for starters. And if you're going to make new packaging to sell these donuts, you should probably offer different kinds of donuts in these boxes, otherwise it's just a waste of resources to make different packages.

What we need is more flavors of donuts (personalities and cultures) to go in these boxes (the races themselves). This can be done without villain-batting.

Do you know what occurs when you have a clash of cultures, goals, and ideals between various people? Conflict. Problems. Unrest. These are what drive a story. It doesn't have to be violent, though that is certainly one way to tell a story.

So maybe instead of focusing on 2nd grade views on "good vs evil", we can instead focus on ways to make our donuts a little more delicious and exciting to eat. It's called variety.

I'd love for nothing more than to see the elven groups mentioned in this thread get some progress and diversity to actually set them apart and justify their separate existences. But so long as they are effectively the same groups (high elves) with the same goals (save the world, have peace?) then it's really hard to care about any of it. There's no story to tell. Unite them, call it a day. It doesn't matter.

[GreenJesus]

The rendorei put the sunwell at risk, ended up fucking uo the ritual just as they were warned. And then they had the audacity to want revenge against the people that warned them of those very dangers that could have destroyed their civilization.

After what happened they should have realized how wrong they were, but nope they turn around and now fight against the very people they originally wanted to defend. Such good story.

[ravenmoon]

Let us face the truth: The Void Elves are what the Blood Elves should have been for years and what they could be again if they stopped following genocidal maniacs for no reason.

This or something like them, if blizzard wanted them to be different.

The thing is, when they took them to the horde, blizzard wanted them to be high elves, so they made them that again.. Notice how the WC3 TFT blood elves were panning out to be something very different notice how they turned the Sunfury and Kael'thas blood elves in TBC evil, just like they gave Illidan the villain bat ...b/c they wanted catchy raid bosses

These characters had far better value to the story in their original capacity, especially with the blood elves gone horde.. but just as with the decision to take blood elves horde, gameplay trumps lore.

Ever since the wow project started, lore had been getting less and less important or viewed as a valuable resource on the level of other aspects like systems, art and music.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing to accept and their isn't an issue.

Sin'dorei fans won't see void elves and high elves as lore progression for the Sin'dorei or see them as the playable Blood Elf race.
It's not an issue, it's never been there...

I can assure you, you don't speak for every sin'dorei fan nor every horde fan, as a fan of the sin'dorei, I for one totally disagree. sometimes when you see things more clearly, you perception changes.

[Tanaria]

I can assure you, you don't speak for every sin'dorei fan nor every horde fan, as a fan of the sin'dorei, I for one totally disagree. sometimes when you see things more clearly, you perception changes.

Your not a fan of the Sin'dorei. Your a fan of Night Elves who just wants to take everything about the current Sin'dorei over to the Alliance, because the race has assets and vibes that you like, but they aren't on the faction you want them.

You don't even know which Sin'dorei you want, because it sure as hell isn't the Horde Sin'dorei of Quel'Thalas. It seems more of what you want are those Sunfury hostile Burning Legion Sin'dorei who we already killed, in the main. Any true Sin'dorei fan has moved with the times and the fact is you have not.
If you want to play some odd-style Thalassian Elf, who's all "bad boy" and stuff, role a Blood Elf Demon Hunter or simply role a Void Elf.

As already stated, whole Thalassian lore does not count as all of it being Blood Elf lore. That's your own personal view and we should not be forced and bullied into viewing it that way, just because you have some weird obsession with Tolkien and wanting to turn wow into the next LOTRO.

[Sagenod]

I said everyone is a bland, generic good guy, but that doesn't mean we -have- to go in the completely opposite direction and start twirling mustaches and plotting murder.

Well, I suppose you could do that, and then justify it by claiming moral superiority and "it was the right thing to do, their side was evil" when your opponents just don't bow down and do things your way.

But seriously, you aren't even close to understanding what I was getting at so allow me to explain with an analogy.

A plain cake donut is a plain cake donut. You can wrap it in any kind of package you want, but it doesn't change the content inside the box: a plain cake donut. You can make the container red, blue, white, or just brown cardboard. It can have a fancy design or no design, but it will never change the donut inside.

In WoW, the races are represented by the box and their ideologies and goals are represented by the donut. In this case, the particular donut is a plain, boring cake donut (human Alliance) that's been on the shelf for months. It is stale, has little to no flavor, and has simply been repackaged in all kinds of different boxes (the races of Azeroth) to make it more appealing on the shelf, but offering nothing more on the inside.

Night elves, blood elves, draenei, orcs...every single race in Warcraft right now has no culture outside of "generic human goodness". I would argue the human Alliance doesn't even have a culture at all. You can't make the stale donut taste good by throwing it in a different package. It needs to be freshly baked, for starters. And if you're going to make new packaging to sell these donuts, you should probably offer different kinds of donuts in these boxes, otherwise it's just a waste of resources to make different packages.

What we need is more flavors of donuts (personalities and cultures) to go in these boxes (the races themselves). This can be done without villain-batting.

Do you know what occurs when you have a clash of cultures, goals, and ideals between various people? Conflict. Problems. Unrest. These are what drive a story. It doesn't have to be violent, though that is certainly one way to tell a story.

So maybe instead of focusing on 2nd grade views on "good vs evil", we can instead focus on ways to make our donuts a little more delicious and exciting to eat. It's called variety.

I'd love for nothing more than to see the elven groups mentioned in this thread get some progress and diversity to actually set them apart and justify their separate existences. But so long as they are effectively the same groups (high elves) with the same goals (save the world, have peace?) then it's really hard to care about any of it. There's no story to tell. Unite them, call it a day. It doesn't matter.

Wish I could put this entire reply in my signature. You articulated what I think about the story and ways to improve it better than I ever could!

[ravenmoon]

Your not a fan of the Sin'dorei. Your a fan of Night Elves who just wants to take everything about the current Sin'dorei over to the Alliance, because the race has assets and vibes that you like, but they aren't on the faction you want them.

Oh so you know me now, and what I like.

I don't need to stand up for the sin'dorei here, we have you, and the majority of the users here, you correct most of the errors, you are often very accurate concerning them, and mostly like very nearly right all the time.

You conflict with me because of your bias, you don't see it that way, but because you can't view things objectively it seems I am only a fan of the other side.

Night elf fans are very few, no one hardly sticks up for them, most don't understand them well because they aren't interested.. at least on these boards.. the regulars here are mostly belf fans, the nelf fans are very occasional, so i tend to stick up for them a lot. But don't you assume what I like or don't like.

You don't even know which Sin'dorei you want, because it sure as hell isn't the Horde Sin'dorei of Quel'Thalas. It seems more of what you want are those Sunfury hostile Burning Legion Sin'dorei who we already killed, in the main. Any true Sin'dorei fan has moved with the times and the fact is and you have not.
If you want to play some odd-style Thalassian Elf, who's all "bad boy" and stuff, role a Blood Elf Demon Hunter or simply role a Void Elf

There you go again, I just don't view things like you do, nor do i have your unfair and biased view. You ONLY advocate positively for the sin'dorei all the time, and you put them above everyone else, if something clashes with them or puts them at a disadvantage you will work against it.

I won't.

The things I love I am also critical about.. you've never read me criticise Malfurion, or the long vigil night elves, only the Highborne and queen Azshara's group huh.

You mistake the good comments I make as proof of my exclusive night elf fandom... I usually have to make those comments because you and the haters, tend to keep wrongly and incorrectly dismissing, putting down and saying outright things about this race that aren't so.

Admittedly you don't do that anywhere near as some of the haters, at least not nowadays, your thing is that it's okay as long as it doesn't interfere or clash wit h your blood elf top spot.

You're so male it's unbelievable, so competitive and aggressive about the things you love.. I don't know if that's how you behave in real life with others, but here, you are an open book, this is the real you - funny , the place most people think they put on the mask, is where they actually take it completely off. it's not all of you, I am guessing if I met you in real life, I'd like you very much, and we'd have passionate disagreements on elves when we start talking..but it's only one part of your life dude. And i don't consider you an enemy because we disagree often here.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

The other option is to just accept that this is a none-issue...I mean, did this whole thing, going on a slight attack at sin'dorei fans, really need to be made? I mean, do you hate sin'dorei fans because they love the sin'dorei over the precious nelfs?

And I am a true Sin'dorei fan because I don't rate the Sin'dorei as being at the top at everything. A real fan acknowledges where the strengths and weaknesses are of their favorites and not afraid to state it as it is. I don't need to make up stuff to try and put Blood Elves above Orcs, in the "Warlock" field.

They make extremely good arcanists and mages, with decent rangers and blood knights. Are they "Fel Masters?" No, as playable races go, Orcs are the best Warlocks going. Yes they have Demon Hunters, but being a Warlock and being a Demon Hunter are two very different things.

And night elf fans being fewer is not a Blood Elf fan problem. Sorry, but that's how it is. It's like demanding something from the Orc fans to make night elf fans feel better...I don't know what it is you want from Sin'dorei fans, but the fact that your favorite race got it's lore butchered in BFA is not the fault of Blood Elf fans.

[jellmoo]

This may sound harsh, but... it's really, really, really hard to care. Like, at least with the Night Elves and Nightborne we have thousands of years of spearation and isolation. They have become very distinct and operate very differently. Having the lore and story be separate for the two makes sense.

But Void Elves are just Blood Elves that made a boneheaded decision like 3 weeks ago and then decided to sulk about it. They are quite literally the same group of people, just one has moved away. Their stories right now are really one and the same.

And honestly, its hard to sympathize when so many other races in the game have seen so much less story time and development in comparison. I get that Elves are intrinsically popular as a race choice, but it starts to get maddening watching them get so much more lore and story and it gets worse as new "types" of Elves get added that further dilute the narrative from others. Let Blood Elves and Void Elves share their story time, so that others get their time to shine as well.

[ravenmoon]

The other option is to just accept that this is a none-issue...I mean, did this whole thing, going on a slight attack at sin'dorei fans, really need to be made? I mean, do you hate sin'dorei fans because they love the sin'dorei over the precious nelfs?

Not at all, just pointing out the prejudice and how it's clouding vision. You're unable to see the bigger picture for more than what you favour or see more to a thing because of the prejudice or bias for one thing only.

Can't ever consider situations with void elves or high elves involved in Quel'thalas as a typical example because you're so into blood elves, they must have it all no matter what.

Look I have similarly advocated for kaldorei to have all the kaldorei related stuff and the best of it, but not once have I actively rejected the opposite. In fact i often propose opposing things, as I am looking at it from a birds eye view or developer stand point and different options can be different for different things.

I was the first I notice to propose Nightborne joining the horde, and explored it's positive merits, which there were some, that i am aware of on the forums (I did this in Legion beta official forums) I believed then and still do the kaldorei was the better way to go, for better reasons, but going with the horde could have positive benefits too and was not implausible. you would only catch me arguing that hte option i favoured was the better one. I don't reject an opposite because it doesn't float my boat, i honestly admit that i don't like it, but will point out it's merit. I may share why i don't like it. If i vehemently oppose something, there is always a reason I state, and it's not always an in game reason based on liking a race or not.

Your type of fandom, would completely reject that, you would never admit it or propose it, you would only highlight it to point out why it was bad, but never why it was good.. because you are campaigning for blood elves, not simply enjoying them or the game. You have an agenda and a fight, for which your favourite blood elves must always win and get the things you like most about them, and be the greatest etc.. I get wanting the group you like to be amazing, but when ti's them and no one else, and you can't even see different scenarios that have merits for other purposes.. it's a clear indication of bias and it isn't a healthy one for developing options. It's great for favouring only the sin'dorei ofc. But if you want to develop in a project like this or simply want to have a broader more open and thorough exploration of possibilities, it's not good to only see what's good for the sin'dorei above every one else.

[Maljinwo]

Elves are just hideously mutant trolls

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Everybody goes gah-gah and total fandom for what they like. It's no different for Blood Elf fans to Orc fans to night elf fans.

Nothing is being clouded in terms of what is Sin'dorei lore progression and void elf and high elf lore progression, is only "Sin'dorei" lore progression when the Sin'dorei are involved. If it's just void elves and/or high elves, then it's simply not lore progression or story development for the Sin'dorei. That is just totally ludicrous and it probably isn't something Blizzard considers.

They probably count each race as an individual, regardless of elf, human, troll, orc or whatever species, which is fine.

[Jackstraw]

Don't you think? Just because they are on the other faction and alliance fans love them, doesn't mean they aren't your story and race.

Alleria, Vereesa and all that lore that pours in, it's blood elf lore.

No.

Alleria has her story, Vereesa hers as well and that's without the loathe towards Sin'dorei in general.
There's interesting stories to be told about high elves and their willful abstinence from magic, a great potential in the Silver Covenant and of course something for the Ren'dorei as well, as much as a wasted potential not having at least the Locus Walker intervene in some shape or form during 8.3.

But to clump them up as a single race?
You yourself don't accept Nightborne advancement as Kaldorei, and why would you or anybody who's any sort of investment in any of the two races.

Quel'thalas is there both for the High Elves who want to visit it and the Void Elves who cannot approach it anymore. In both cases, the story drove those people apart, and they have to grow separately. What would be the point in splitting them up if not for separate growth?
And if it has to be one unified development, why not reuniting them back under the Quel'thalas banner?

There's no reason for splinters to acquire gravity if the main branch is healty enough to receive them back.

[ravenmoon]

Everybody goes gah-gah and total fandom for what they like. It's no different for Blood Elf fans to Orc fans to night elf fans.

It's behaviour better suited to a political campaign or one of those aggressive trading companies, or a fight club. Except this is a video game, over a fantasy race that's not even real, not a matter of life and death or real high stakes ... while I know you surely love them very much, just enjoy and relax over it.

However let's never cross the line to actually be angry with one another over something like this and try to open up and see things from another perspective. zooming out really helps here.

[Tanaria]

It's behaviour better suited to a political campaign or one of those aggressive trading companies, or a fight club. Except this is a video game, over a fantasy race that's not even real, not a matter of life and death or real high stakes ... while I know you surely love them very much, just enjoy and relax over it.

However let's never cross the line to actually be angry with one another over something like this and try to open up and see things from another perspective. zooming out really helps here.

Exactly.

So why bother making this thread then?

[pinkz]

Don't you think? Just because they are on the other faction and alliance fans love them, doesn't mean they aren't your story and race.

If your affection for the high elven lore as a whole? or just for the factional half that resides on the horde? What about San'layn? Darkfallen? and fel elves? non horde/alliance ones? Isn't their involvement all part of the same Thalassian tapestry?


Are fans only concerned with hating things pertaining to the race they play because they are enemies in game?

You see I see things differently. When I see the Nightborne, the naga, the satyr, the demon hunters, the Highborne, the Farondis ghosts - I see night elf lore and night elf characterisation. I don't see them as my personal enemies because some of these groups are enemies to the night elves or on the horde.. I view it collectively as part of the night elf story that is shared all over and not confined only to the alliance.

People complained about high elves getting screen time a lot in the earlier days, but I was surprised to see it coming from blood elf fans until I realised it was a protest against alliance getting playable races as the main motivation. but I think somewhere along the way, the intense factional divisions amongst the community simply blinded them from seeing that High elves were a tool furthering the blood elves.. and vice versa. If you loved that race, whether you stuck by the alliance or horde, blood elf and high elf activity was more development for your favourite race.


It is easy to get swept up in factional conflict and siding though, I know that, I may have hated night elves joining the alliance and preferred them to be their own faction, yet i have argued a lot for night elf stuff to be on the alliance. in my defence, I was suggesting the alliance simply because night elves were there, not because I wanted Suramar or Nightborne to join the alliance faction because I love the alliance. It seems a tiny difference, but it actually is a big one. My old school view still sees night elves as a titanic race described in WC3 manual and a faction with multiple components.. as such I did want to see it all come together under one banner.. and since the main group was on the alliance it was alliance. However it isn't ultimately necessary.

Every time you see void elves, and high elves, San'layn, and dark fallen it is the story of the Thalassian elves expanded. People hate the idea of Silvermoon going to the alliance or the blood elves turning back to high elves (on the horde)... I can understand that, because that is faction transference, and you have a right to be understandably upset about that.

however having void elf and high elf presence and involvement in Quel'thalas and things blood elves are involved with should please you. Lore that shows void elves and high elves is also lore of your race.. you can hate them in game for being the other side, but you should delight in seeing more of them as it's more of your races story.

I am happy to see more naga and Queen Azshara stuff, I was really annoyed that it was only a patch, and I felt it would have made a much better expansion focus than the debacle that was Battle for Azeroth faction war, which should have been the side story instead.

Night elves, Thalassian elves, all of these actually belong to the Warcraft universe, not the horde or alliance, and while we engage with these racial families via the factions, we should appreciate they are actually our racial lore. I was annoyed that Tyrande, Farondis or Malfurion wasn't their against Azshara.. where were the night elves I sometimes thought and argued? Truth is they were all over the place, they were the ghosts in Zin'Azshara and they were the naga we were killing, and both Thalyssra and Shandris each were the representations of them from the factions. Occuleth was there for a short time too. In truth they dominated that zone, just not in the form I supported the most.



Alleria, Vereesa and all that lore that pours in, it's blood elf lore. Blood elf is the identity of the race on the horde. But it is the same umbrella race high elves, void elves, San'layn, Darkfallen etc are all from. When you see them whether as NPC enemies, faction enemies, neutral entities etc, it's your race. will you always hate or deny involvement?

What if they do up Quel'thalas again, and blood elves, avoid elves and high elves are all given a stake too, as well as San'layn - would you hate that too because of the role of only the alliance elves? or will you hate the presence of all non-blood elf identifying elves there?

If you were to sit down and group the races according to their families, you might be shocked just how much involvement your race actually has through all its connected groups, even though they are not in your faction.

I know it is easy to forget, but only because we get swept up in faction politics. I did complain for while about the lack of night elves showing up in legion. My bros had to point out to me, that All the Nightborne, Dreamwarden, Farondis, Moonguard, Nightfallen, Fal'dorei, Naga, and Satyr that showed up in legion was all night elf lore and it wasn't limited just to the alliance faction. I should be happy enough. HE was right, but yet I still keep arguing for more to come ot the alliance faction !!

Well, that's faction bias However my motivation isn't quite what a lot of people think, I looked at the alliance objectively and said.. it needs more lore from it's heavy weigthts, not because I like the alliance, but because it was suffering. I like the night elves. so any lore that doesn't turn them into another race, blood elf or otherwise, is actually enjoyed an appreciated by me.

blood elves are high elves. blood elves were part of the HU faction...alliance in WC3 FT, blizz retconned them to give horde a pretty race....blizz's words

blood mage hero http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...loodmage.shtml
spell breakers http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...lbreaker.shtml

read race description in links

[TheRevenantHero]

This is like saying that when Nightborne got story, the night elves were ALSO getting story. And that's just asinine.

[breadisfunny]

void elves are a mistake and must be eradicated.

[Ardenaso]

On a Blood Elf perspective, yes: Alliance High Elves and Void Elves are part of our story. Traitors, that is.

[TheRevenantHero]

void elves are a mistake and must be eradicated.

A lot races are a mistake and must be eradicated. Vulpera, worgen, and mechagnomes immediately come to mind.

[GreenJesus]

Void elves are a sad joke.
High elves have been renamed blood elves after the scourge invasion. Therefore does not exist anymore.
You are refering to bloodelves who chose to leave Quel'thalas and took arms against their brothers.

Let's just call them "blue elves" so we don't ternish the memory of the fallen who died for their lands by calling them like those who chose to be at war with the survivors.

Blue elves are literally just militant vegans that refused to see the bigger picture.

- - - Updated - - -

It's behaviour better suited to a political campaign or one of those aggressive trading companies, or a fight club. Except this is a video game, over a fantasy race that's not even real, not a matter of life and death or real high stakes ... while I know you surely love them very much, just enjoy and relax over it.

However let's never cross the line to actually be angry with one another over something like this and try to open up and see things from another perspective. zooming out really helps here.

Lol you of all people telling others to just relax and enjoy the story. You're the one writing pages and pages about how blizzard ruined elves every day.