Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Dracullus]

I'm surprised they didn't add Tazavesh to the world map honestly, seems like it'll be a nice little hub even outside the dungeon.

Does Tazavesh use one of 'empty' spots in Oribos flight master area?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Are we still upset about Ret-cons? Like really?

[Hugnomo]

I don't see why a few years time skip is so outrages to some.

Let the franchise breathe a little.
The way they are currently bombarding us with one mega threat after the other is just suffocating the story.

A time skip would give them a space to re-establish the world, and allow them to properly expand upon what they have been introducing the last couple expansions.

Yeah. To me it'd just make sense for a lot of reasons. Maybe not a very large timeskip because you'd have to age all characters and that'd be hard.
But enough where you'd come to a world with something like a rebuilt Lordaeron, or a new Hyjal capital for Nelves and enough time had passed for that to happen.
Also, someone like Calia or Lilian or Rokhan would get the needed time to actually establish themselves as leaders.
It could also work as a way to breathe new story into the world, as in, you'd get to learn about what happened during that time and experience how this updated world came to be,

[therumblings]

Does Tazavesh use one of 'empty' spots in Oribos flight master area?

I believe it does

Are we still upset about Ret-cons? Like really?

Considering Blizzard has heavy handed retcons every single patch at this rate, yes.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Are we still upset about Ret-cons? Like really?

It's the status quo, at this point. It's more surprising when they don't retcon something with a new patch.

[Dracullus]

Nice, you still don't know what retcon is.

Sargeras gets corrupted by Eredar (old lore) -> Sargeras coming to Argus and corrupting KJ & Archimonde. THAT is a retcon.

In SL we have new lore they try to fit with old lore. Maybe I missed something, cause I'm not really into this stuff, but give me real example of real retcon in SL.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Nice, you still don't know what retcon is.

Sargeras gets corrupted by Eredar (old lore) -> Sargeras coming to Argus and corrupting KJ & Archimonde. THAT is a retcon.

In SL we have new lore they try to fit with old lore. Maybe I missed something, cause I'm not really into this stuff, but give me real example of real retcon in SL.

It's actually more wishy washy, especially when taking in the original authorial intent.


Retcon

noun: retcon; plural noun: retcons; noun: ret-con; plural noun: ret-cons

(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.

Also under the retcon wikipedia page of different types:

Addition

Retcons sometimes do not contradict previously established facts but instead fill in missing background details, usually to support current plot points.

Retcons don’t necessarily mean it contradicts the narrative. It can mean it changes the context and interpretation of the previous narrative. For example: Though Sherlock Holmes died at the Reichenbach Falls, the author, Arthur Conan Doyle, retroactively declared that his death had been staged in what has been described as an early example of a retcon.

The cinematic showing that, "Akshually, Dreadlords are behind it all" doesn't contradict old lore, but it's definitely a retcon.

[TomatoBisque]

that definition of retcon completely undermines and devalues the term "retcon" as in any way remotely being useful for discussion

literally any sort of new information becomes a retcon with this definition

[Revamp Man]

Nice, you still don't know what retcon is.

Sargeras gets corrupted by Eredar (old lore) -> Sargeras coming to Argus and corrupting KJ & Archimonde. THAT is a retcon.

In SL we have new lore they try to fit with old lore. Maybe I missed something, cause I'm not really into this stuff, but give me real example of real retcon in SL.

when sarg gets frostmourne its been retconned from the dreadlords stealing it to them giving it to him

[TheFirstOnes]

Whatever the First Ones are, whether they are the 6 Great Powers that started off an imbalanced before they came together and brought shape to everything, or whether they are the Primal Forces that made Light, Shadow, Order, Disorder, Life, Death, and a secret 7th power (That likely keeps things numbered and whatnot), and also brought form upon their design (AKA the Cosmic Influences) hence creating everything, the end factor remains they same...

Unless there is this 1 above all God, the First Ones are these High Outerversal beings, possibly even pure 0 beings that made the entire Warcraft Universe.

Ian Bates assumes they're dead. I literally highly doubt that unless there is an Evil First One (Which actually COULD be the case).

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I'm surprised they didn't add Tazavesh to the world map honestly, seems like it'll be a nice little hub even outside the dungeon.

It is stuck in the In-Between, I think it's clever they didn't give the place a map.

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"The First Ones came after the Big Bang btw"

Lmao feels good to see this statement slaughtered.

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I think I have an idea of what this 7th power is. It's Geometry. Math. It's what keeps the Powers in balance!!!! It is the thing the First Ones used to give form to their design (AKA provide a framework for these forces), hence why it's outside the pattern!!!!

HOLY SHIT! I THINK I GOT IT!!!

[Revamp Man]

Someone is posting about a 10.0 leak on 4chan, probably 99% fake but its fun to see people speculate.

Here, if you're bored.

100% fake

lets not even give these guys any possible belief especially when they talk about "oh we are pretty far along with environment already and heres a list of our class stuff and profession stuff

thats a no from me dog

[TheFirstOnes]

Guys, I think I'm reaching enlightenment. I've never been more sure of a theory before in my fucking life...

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

that definition of retcon completely undermines and devalues the term "retcon" as in any way remotely being useful for discussion

literally any sort of new information becomes a retcon with this definition

That's where original authorial intent comes in, as mentioned from the beginning. It's wishy washy.

When people who didn't even work on the narrative that was established 19 years ago do something that drastically alters it and prior character motivations to twist things to suit the story they want to tell? That sounds like a retcon to me.

Edit:
The verb usage might be more appropriate fitting: revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.

[TheFirstOnes]

First Ones pop in > First Ones make the 6-7 Cosmic Powers > Cosmic Powers are imbalanced > First Ones team up and take part of themselves to help balance out the Cosmic Powers > Cosmic Framework is in place > The framework causes the Shadowlands to be made, the Physical Universe to be made, the Cosmic Pantheons to be made, etc.

This 7th Cosmic Power is quite possibly outside the chart, and imo, that power is actually known all along but it's overlooked AKA Geometry, the very thing the Broker in the pages talks about. It's used to the advantage of the First Ones to help construct the framework of the other six forces, and practically set up everything we see ever.

That's my theory. I'll stick to it till the Grimoire comes out (Or maybe that'll only help it out? idk), but until then, this is what I think.

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Cosmic Hierarchy:

1. First Ones

2. Cosmic Powers

3. Cosmic Pantheons and by extension the framework of the Cosmos.

4. Old Gods, Prime Naaru, Titan Keepers, etc.

5. Elemental Lords.

6. Guys such as the Lich King, Azshara, etc.

7. The Faction Leaders.

And 8. You, but without the logic of your player character. So, basically if you lived on Azeroth, and you were nothing but a knight or an average Peasant.

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@zantheus1993

What do you think of my theory?

[TomatoBisque]

That's where original authorial intent comes in, as mentioned from the beginning. It's wishy washy.

When people who didn't even work on the narrative that was established 19 years ago do something that drastically alters it and prior character motivations to twist things to suit the story they want to tell? That sounds like a retcon to me.

Edit:
The verb usage might be more appropriate fitting: revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.

We have no idea what the original authors intended so how can we make this judgement?

for example: Xelnath has said this cosmic stuff we are seeing now was something Metzen was setting up as far back as TBC see the Skra'gath section, but your average forumite is gonna blame Danuser or whoever because Metzen is gone so clearly the new writers are just doing whatever with no respect to what he built

[Revamp Man]

First Ones pop in > First Ones make the 6-7 Cosmic Powers > Cosmic Powers are imbalanced > First Ones team up and take part of themselves to help balance out the Cosmic Powers > Cosmic Framework is in place > The framework causes the Shadowlands to be made, the Physical Universe to be made, the Cosmic Pantheons to be made, etc.

This 7th Cosmic Power is quite possibly outside the chart, and imo, that power is actually known all along but it's overlooked AKA Geometry, the very thing the Broker in the pages talks about. It's used to the advantage of the First Ones to help construct the framework of the other six forces, and practically set up everything we see ever.

That's my theory. I'll stick to it till the Grimoire comes out (Or maybe that'll only help it out? idk), but until then, this is what I think.

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Cosmic Hierarchy:

1. First Ones

2. Cosmic Powers

3. Cosmic Pantheons and by extension the framework of the Cosmos.

4. Old Gods, Prime Naaru, Titan Keepers, etc.

5. Elemental Lords.

6. Guys such as the Lich King, Azshara, etc.

7. The Faction Leaders.

And 8. You, but without the logic of your player character. So, basically if you lived on Azeroth, and you were nothing but a knight or an average Peasant.

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@zantheus1993

What do you think of my theory?

the 7th wishes to claim what the 6 keep balanced

personally i am still convinced that the first ones were argus and azeroth and the eternal ones are the keepers but it is an interesting theory

[TheFirstOnes]

the 7th wishes to claim what the 6 keep balanced

personally i am still convinced that the first ones were argus and azeroth and the eternal ones are the keepers but it is an interesting theory

From what I could gather, maybe the "7th" and the "6th" are in regards to the First Ones. The Broker thing seems to also have some implications that the forces or the Great Powers are not really the Cosmic Influences, but they're actually the First Ones. And there may be 6 or 7 of them, depending on your view. Which implies there may be a 7th First Ones that disagrees with the others ideals of teaming together and giving structure/form to the designs they made.

[Revamp Man]

Everliving Statuette: Hidden from daylight, a sleeping flame rests atop the sixth tree.
im still wondering what this is

Everliving Statuette: Hope. Betrayal. Sacrifice. Faces change. The tale does not.
the story of the titans, the jailer, arthas, sylvanas, all the same

Everliving Statuette: So many secrets, so little time left to share them.
linked to something im not sure possibly the city of secrets

Everliving Statuette: A city of secrets. A history of lies.
hinting that the history we know is a lie and possibly the reason the jailer was imprisoned

Everliving Statuette: How many voices do you heed? How many are real?
the voice of the arbiter is lying to us

Everliving Statuette: The seventh covets what the six hold fast. The fulcrum wavers. All will be undone
THIS THIS RIGHT HERE the first ones are coming

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From what I could gather, maybe the "7th" and the "6th" are in regards to the First Ones. The Broker thing seems to also have some implications that the forces or the Great Powers are not really the Cosmic Influences, but they're actually the First Ones. And there may be 6 or 7 of them, depending on your view. Which implies there may be a 7th First Ones that disagrees with the others ideals of teaming together and giving structure/form to the designs they made.

if there are 7 first ones then im more convinced that Argus and Azeroth werent simply titans

argus is the unmaker and referred to as the death titan

Azeroth is "not the last but the first" meaning she might not be the last titan but a first one

[TheFirstOnes]

Everliving Statuette: Hidden from daylight, a sleeping flame rests atop the sixth tree.
im still wondering what this is

Everliving Statuette: Hope. Betrayal. Sacrifice. Faces change. The tale does not.
the story of the titans, the jailer, arthas, sylvanas, all the same

Everliving Statuette: So many secrets, so little time left to share them.
linked to something im not sure possibly the city of secrets

Everliving Statuette: A city of secrets. A history of lies.
hinting that the history we know is a lie and possibly the reason the jailer was imprisoned

Everliving Statuette: How many voices do you heed? How many are real?
the voice of the arbiter is lying to us

Everliving Statuette: The seventh covets what the six hold fast. The fulcrum wavers. All will be undone
THIS THIS RIGHT HERE the first ones are coming

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if there are 7 first ones then im more convinced that Argus and Azeroth werent simply titans

argus is the unmaker and referred to as the death titan

Azeroth is "not the last but the first" meaning she might not be the last titan but a first one

Azeroth could be a Titan empowered by the First Ones to keep as an anchor to balance out Reality.

Balance can very much hold all Cosmic Powers at bay while also having the power to claim it all. Hence why I also talk about Geometry, since Geometry being the power to destroy all powers would make sense, as by its will it can imbalance and overpower everything.

[Revamp Man]

Azeroth could be a Titan empowered by the First Ones to keep as an anchor to balance out Reality.

Balance can very much hold all Cosmic Powers at bay while also having the power to claim it all. Hence why I also talk about Geometry, since Geometry being the power to destroy all powers would make sense, as by its will it can imbalance and overpower everything.

we are told in chronicles that the pantheon hid azeroth
zovaal is looking for that which the first ones sought to keep hidden
our link to azeroth allowed us to be able to activate a relic of the first one

im not convinced the titans are the ones that hid azeroth and i in no way believe she is simply a titan