Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Darkeon]

I'm fairly sure this thread is now redundant and a new one needs to be created where we actually try to agree on what Pay to Win is since if we can't agree on what it actually is, how can we agree if the game is or isn't it.

It'll probably never happen.

The industry has vastly changed since these stores had crazy power ups available and it has quickly learned that the real money is now towards bypassing time sinks (that are usually deliberate in order to incentivize the purchase) and loot boxes. But some people will forever hold that initial description as to the set-in-stone definition of P2W.

Plus, MMOs are a nasty breed when it comes to objectively pinpoint a Winning state. That divides people even further.

I'd say just scrap the entire thing lol, it has proven useless.

[Stardrift]

So not technically but factually. No ifs and buts.

I don't want to promote those websites (like its hard to google lol) but you can get rough idea that they are still fairly popular despite existence of token.
And I know people who still "work" there.

So it was always P2W. Doesn't matter you consider them unethical.

I agree with you here.

[chiddie]

When I play WoW I want to put effort in and be rewarded for it. Leveling is one of those rewards, and someone with a big wallet can skip it, so it feels less valuable to me.

I also like to work towards cosmetics to make my character stand out, like in old WoW you could get some cool mount and people would be impressed, but now its like theres so many mounts (which was gonna happen with the game expanding over the years) but theres also lots of cool mounts that can be acquired from the store, and a lot more people available to boost others to get rewards than there used to (with cross realms etc). Back in the day you used to just have to be part of a guild to get some of these cool things, communities were smaller and less "pay to win" through the community than there is now.

WoW token made gold buying legit, I kind of preferred it when it wasnt, yea it still happened but felt a lot less, having a lot of gold means nothing now, like anyone can get it with a wallet.

so yea i feel the value of levelling up, raiding, getting cool cosmetics, is a lot less than it used to be. probably why i have no motivation to play right now

Leveling up has a little value in every MMORPG that focuses on what happens when you’re at max level.

You can enjoy the journey the first couple of times, but after that it becomes just tedious, because quests are always the same.

[DeltrusDisc]

So you think that people will be able to buy CE first week of the new raid? That it will be available in enough supply that anyone who wants it can buy it? The power isn't always available to buy with gold. So the token isn't always pay to win since you can pay and not win. Good enough for most people doesn't mean it is accurate.

I did not say they can buy it first week, I said they can buy CE.
Sure, it isn't good enough for everyone, but I guarantee you it would be good enough for most people.

Those who truly want server or world first will either put the time in for it or recognize they have other things in life to attend to and not lose sleep over it.

WoW was once not P2W.

It now is.

Stop trying with this debate. Back in Vanilla, TBC, WotLK, Cata, MoP... remind me when the tokens were implemented please? We could not through any Blizzard-sanctioned methods, buy gold for real world money and then use it to buy stuff like this. One way or the other, you had to put in tons of effort in game to make the gold and then spend it how you will.

[rhorle]

I did not say they can buy it first week, I said they can buy CE.

The comment you took issue with was talking about the first week. The token can't make WoW pay to win if that win is not always available. There is not maybe or chance involved in pay to win. Some one still has to put in the effort for all token sold because the gold is sourced 100% from players. So using your own argument the token is no different then pre-token because tons of effort is still being put in to make the gold.

[Lochton]

I did not say they can buy it first week, I said they can buy CE.
Sure, it isn't good enough for everyone, but I guarantee you it would be good enough for most people.

Those who truly want server or world first will either put the time in for it or recognize they have other things in life to attend to and not lose sleep over it.

WoW was once not P2W.

It now is.

Stop trying with this debate. Back in Vanilla, TBC, WotLK, Cata, MoP... remind me when the tokens were implemented please? We could not through any Blizzard-sanctioned methods, buy gold for real world money and then use it to buy stuff like this. One way or the other, you had to put in tons of effort in game to make the gold and then spend it how you will.

Actually, we could, though more steps. TCG cards (Tradeable BoEs) could be purchased with real money, and then claimed in-game for either usage or sale on the auction house for gold.

WoW was by people's choices of term creation in this thread, indirect P2W since October 2006 as the token is an indirect win as well.

[Doffen]

Well I have bought three max level boosts the 5 last years, with in game gold. So not p2w. Did not pay blizzard a DIME of real money myself.

Funny like that.

[Lochton]

Well I have bought three max level boosts the 5 last years, with in game gold. So not p2w. Did not pay blizzard a DIME of real money myself.

Funny like that.

That is why I love the token. It permits people to utilize their hoarded gold instead of sitting on it like god damn Smaug. I purchased Shadowlands with my gold, and it was brilliant, still sitting on a crap ton of it.

Though, sadly to some in the thread, because we interacted with the token in some form, it is P2W.

[Doffen]

That is why I love the token. It permits people to utilize their hoarded gold instead of sitting on it like god damn Smaug. I purchased Shadowlands with my gold, and it was brilliant, still sitting on a crap ton of it.

Though, sadly to some in the thread, because we interacted with the token in some form, it is P2W.

Yeah, love the token. I did count late in BfA, that I had used more than 1000 dollars of gold on blizzard games, sub, mounts etc, BfA/SL Expansions and other shit. Since Argus launched, I earned in average 42.5k gold PER DAY from the Class Hall with 9 characters doing the thingy. And then you had BoE, gold from WQ(remember when you could get 150g from each WQ, great times) and so on.

But not only for personal gains, cause it makes so that people that have low income, or even unemployed can find a way to pay for the sub

[Lochton]

Yeah, love the token. I did count late in BfA, that I had used more than 1000 dollars of gold on blizzard games, sub, mounts etc, BfA/SL Expansions and other shit. Since Argus launched, I earned in average 42.5k gold PER DAY from the Class Hall with 9 characters doing the thingy. And then you had BoE, gold from WQ(remember when you could get 150g from each WQ, great times) and so on.

But not only for personal gains, cause it makes so that people that have low income, or even unemployed can find a way to pay for the sub

I've helped a good amount of people getting game-time in WoW by offering some coin so they could get some. The wife and I have upgraded the expansion of SL with gold only, and I know a good few who's basically played WoW for free since the token was added, stacking up with the use of gold.

At my current playstyle, rather casual, I still haul in about 300k gold a month without the use of auction house (unless I have a trigger for shopping.. you know.. that one transmog missing).

[Darkeon]

Well I have bought three max level boosts the 5 last years, with in game gold. So not p2w. Did not pay blizzard a DIME of real money myself.

Funny like that.

That's like saying that the extra bars on SWTOR are not a predatory practice just because you were able to purchase them from credits earned in-game, from the marketplace.

[DeltrusDisc]

Actually, we could, though more steps. TCG cards (Tradeable BoEs) could be purchased with real money, and then claimed in-game for either usage or sale on the auction house for gold.

WoW was by people's choices of term creation in this thread, indirect P2W since October 2006 as the token is an indirect win as well.

Okay. Yes. That's a way. It's far more indirect than the token though, let's not equate them.

[rhorle]

Okay. Yes. That's a way. It's far more indirect than the token though, let's not equate them.

Is it far more though? You buy the TCG item, enter the code, get a in-game item and list it on the AH. Someone buys it for gold. You use that gold to buy a BoE or a carry. Why does the level of indirectness even matter?

[Lochton]

Okay. Yes. That's a way. It's far more indirect than the token though, let's not equate them.

But they are the same thing, just more steps.

[DeltrusDisc]

Is it far more though? You buy the TCG item, enter the code, get a in-game item and list it on the AH. Someone buys it for gold. You use that gold to buy a BoE or a carry. Why does the level of indirectness even matter?

But they are the same thing, just more steps.

You guys are both ignoring the fact that having to trust strangers on ebay was involved. Then waiting for it to ship. Then hoping it sells for enough gold.

Right now, you can buy a token in-game and within seconds list it on the AH and Blizzard tells you it /will/ sell for X amount of gold.

There's definitely some differences. Plus, most things people wanted to buy back then weren't exactly cheap to buy on Ebay. $800 spectral tiger? Are you kidding? Now people can just plop $20 in and get ~110k or so gold almost instantly. Be a little more realistic, guys.

[rhorle]

You guys are both ignoring the fact that having to trust strangers on ebay was involved. Then waiting for it to ship. Then hoping it sells for enough gold.

If I am ignoring that, which I never said I was, then are you not ignoring people that bought the loot cards themselves? Indirect is indirect. What level of extra steps makes something acceptable?

[Moozart]

Who cares? How does someone else paying for a Mythic clear effect your gameplay? Do you also get mad because rich people can afford Lamborghinis?

I could care less what other buy in wow, it does not make raids any more or less difficult for me.

[Lochton]

You guys are both ignoring the fact that having to trust strangers on ebay was involved. Then waiting for it to ship. Then hoping it sells for enough gold.

Right now, you can buy a token in-game and within seconds list it on the AH and Blizzard tells you it /will/ sell for X amount of gold.

There's definitely some differences. Plus, most things people wanted to buy back then weren't exactly cheap to buy on Ebay. $800 spectral tiger? Are you kidding? Now people can just plop $20 in and get ~110k or so gold almost instantly. Be a little more realistic, guys.

You even have to trust strangers before being able to get your boost, though?

And TCG has already sold out from vendors, Blizzard has earned their coin on every TCG item existing and thus is claimed in-game, bought from eBay or saved/found/won does not matter, real money was used to gain an in-game advantage. What you earn from TCG which can be millions depending on the item, is still an advantage. We have been told in this thread, that the use of real money to gain in-game currency, is an advantage (so, any currency).

Or is it now only indirect P2W if it has a security feature? It is not P2W because of more steps then?

- - - Updated - - -

Who cares? How does someone else paying for a Mythic clear effect your gameplay? Do you also get mad because rich people can afford Lamborghinis?

I could care less what other buy in wow, it does not make raids any more or less difficult for me.

Good view to have (the bold).

[Cthulhu 2020]

No WoW is not pay to win.

But that's not the question you should be asking. That's a rather dumb question. Games that are blatantly pay to win wear it on their sleeve.

No, the question you should be asking is "Is the cash shop harmful to the overall health of the game?" Which the answer to is unquestionably yes.

[MrFawlty]

Well, it helps the market more than the two other options which are, ToS breaking gold and ToS breaking game-time.

That is a very dubious statement, making it legal has arguably made a bad situation worse. Trying to make out Blizzard are trying to do it for the good of the game would have more credibility if they didn’t profit from it. Boosts for example should be free, so everyone can use them. By selling them they are effectively saying "yes its ok to cheat as long as you pay us".