1. #1

    Gul'dan raising the broken isles, and the nature of magic

    As of Legion we "know" MU Gul'dan only raised parts of it, but it nonetheless begs the question: How did he raise the islands?

    He is a warlock proficient in death (creating death knights in example), fel and shadow magic, none of which are directly capable of performing such a feat to my knowledge. Of course he could have bound some great elemental (as he did to create his volcano), or perhaps struck a deal with another creature with such power (Deathwing comes to mind, but i have seen no indication that it was him).
    The thing is: I do not know for certain.

    But it also raises another question: To what extent are the magics of Warcraft versatile? Of course within their own realms they can freely shape reality, as seen extensively in the shadowlands, but in normal reality such fantastical non-pewpew natured magic seems mostly limited to the arcane; think of effective telekinesis, transportation, creation, etcetera, as well as, of course, magics that are directly relevant to whatever you wish to shape; nature and elemental magic chiefly.

    Can fel/shadow/death/light magic be used to i.e. raise islands directly? Or is it more constrained to its "stereotypical" behaviour of damaging, healing, corrupting and the like?
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Highlord Hanibuhl's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    3,254
    It was my understanding, given how the Broken Isles look (Aszuna being destroyed, Suramar being shielded, Val'Sharah-Stormheim-Highmountain being clean), that the islands were never sunken. Only parts of Suramar, or Thal'dranath and the vast majority of the city of Nazjatar being sunken completely.

    How he raised the tomb, one could argue seeing how the broken shore looks, that fel shackles were used to terraform and explode the island back to the surface.

    Gul'dan is seen 'terraforming' Tanaan to an extend using fel explosions, when talking to Grom at the end of Warlords of Draenor.

    I recon destructive powers such as fel/shadow/death can only be used to a destructive sense, rather than creating something out of nothing.

  3. #3
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,577
    Magic in WoW is highly versatile, with differing schools of magical energies shown to achieve similar and often times inexplicable effects. This is demonstrated in the fact that both Shadow and Light-based magics can heal (e.g. Shadow Mend), or Arcane Mending on its own. Fel magic has performed all manners of feats, from the geological to the transdimensional. In lore Fel magic is nearly as versatile as Arcane magic, which is probably WoW's least defined and most inexplicable school - it is just that its energies arise from a different source (wanton destruction of life as opposed to the energies inherent in ordered creation). I would say sourcing is really the only difference between the various schools of magic in terms of their effects and applications, all the energies of the various schools come from different places and carry with them different connotations - but they are nearly all equally versatile, with perhaps a handful of noteworthy exceptions.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #4
    Fel can't create anything new from nothing the way arcane can, but it can shape things that're already there or reuse their life force to make the Legion's spiky fel constructions. Gul'dan and his warlocks had done it in small ways on Draenor what with inducing famine and drought etc, but also in major ways. Lifting a whole volcano up in Shadowmoon in the main universe and terraforming Tanaan in the alternate universe show the same. The Tomb of Sargeras is the same kind of thing - not only did he have a lot of help doing it that go around, but the most recent image we have of the Tomb has it be corrupted already as he's raising it and it has Sargeras' Avatar put in there for extra fuel.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Fel can't create anything new from nothing the way arcane can, but it can shape things that're already there or reuse their life force to make the Legion's spiky fel constructions. Gul'dan and his warlocks had done it in small ways on Draenor what with inducing famine and drought etc, but also in major ways. Lifting a whole volcano up in Shadowmoon in the main universe and terraforming Tanaan in the alternate universe show the same. The Tomb of Sargeras is the same kind of thing - not only did he have a lot of help doing it that go around, but the most recent image we have of the Tomb has it be corrupted already as he's raising it and it has Sargeras' Avatar put in there for extra fuel.
    can arcane make something from ''nothing''? i cant think of anythinf off the top of my head

    wasnt life created from the clash of light and void?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    can arcane make something from ''nothing''? i cant think of anythinf off the top of my head

    wasnt life created from the clash of light and void?
    You can conjure food and water and shit. Though I suppose that still needs mana, whereas fel needs life force, be it from the caster, victim or environment.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  7. #7
    Shadow and fire and all that under the right conditions can still have mass and body -- they could be conjured beneath the lands, and in that way be used to raise the islands. Extreme heat could play into this a bit, like launching the islands from the sea floor with a powerful volcanic explosion. I think generally speaking Gul'dan was just a prodigy and a genius, and it wouldn't be unheard of for him to know a lot of other magic anyway or to just make up a magical feat like this out of nowhere. It could be that corrupt and defiled areas like the ones present at the Broken Isles was tainted in enough Fel that allowed him to manipulate that, which may be what caused him to raise it that way. He could have tainted the elements beneath the oceans, and saturated them in enough fel to control and dominate them to raise the lands from the ocean. Another method could be using portal or summoning magic to displace the water and to displace other land underneath, thus "raising" it. Gul'dan's cunning is vast, so any number of creative solutions to this problem aren't outside of his wheelhouse. I mean really magic is kind of limitless, there are any number of infinite ways Gul'dan could have raised the islands with the magic we know he has, let alone what other magic he no doubt knew besides.
    Last edited by Razion; 2021-06-09 at 01:27 PM.

  8. #8
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    8,837
    pre-wod lore back when blizz gave a fuck, it made sense since warlocks were ex-shamans that he has ability to raise sunken islands
    post-wod, the answer is fuck you, like almost any question we have about wow lore, like how the 'definite' lore book is from fucking titans pov (btw last time i checked last year it still had the definite title on it at amazon description)

    So if u want easy answer: old lore Gul'dan is one of most powerful shamans, using fel to empower him he can easily force nature to raise the broken isles, i see it make absolute sense and has no problem here, sadly this is confirmed to not be truth post the shittiest exp ever, since new shitlore clearly show that Gul'dan was never shaman who got greedy with power, and elements never accepted him (which beg question how the fuck a very shamanitic society like orcs accepted him in first place, society that values warriors and shamans, and he was neither)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  9. #9
    Thanks for all the well thought responses, i had not considered that the tomb had a source of fel inside it before he found it for one, or that the legion uses it to shape their structures for another.

    It seems magic, regardless of origin, is indeed more versatile than i remembered.

    But then there is a new question: What particular way of raising the isles do you think most likely / most suited for MU Gul'dan?
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  10. #10
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    8,837
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Thanks for all the well thought responses, i had not considered that the tomb had a source of fel inside it before he found it for one, or that the legion uses it to shape their structures for another.

    It seems magic, regardless of origin, is indeed more versatile than i remembered.

    But then there is a new question: What particular way of raising the isles do you think most likely / most suited for MU Gul'dan?
    shaman got massively buffed with fel power, that way, but i admit i'm stuck in old lore and refuse to accept whatever shit WoD said
    think of dark shamans from MoP, but hugely buffed with fel magic
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  11. #11
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,577
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    But then there is a new question: What particular way of raising the isles do you think most likely / most suited for MU Gul'dan?
    I imagine he used Fel magic to exploit tectonic vulnerabilities and fumaroles in the sea, breaking and loosening the sunken island from the sea floor and then propelling it upward. This would be in line with the destructive and chaotic essence of Fel but to a somewhat constructive effect.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    shaman got massively buffed with fel power, that way, but i admit i'm stuck in old lore and refuse to accept whatever shit WoD said
    think of dark shamans from MoP, but hugely buffed with fel magic
    Initially i thought something like that as well, but Aucald's suggestion seems more likely as i've not seen particularly much elemental activity around the broken shore.

    Plus volcanoes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I imagine he used Fel magic to exploit tectonic vulnerabilities and fumaroles in the sea, breaking and loosening the sunken island from the sea floor and then propelling it upward. This would be in line with the destructive and chaotic essence of Fel but to a somewhat constructive effect.
    Now i want one of their comic-style animations showing exactly that.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  13. #13
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
    Posts
    19,105
    Warcraft has one of the softest magic rule systems in fiction. Magic does what the writers need it to do, when they need it to do so. As much as they try to treat it as an integral cosmic force within the universe, it functions more as a plot device to help the writers write themselves out of the corners they keep writing themselves into. Because it exists to fulfill Doylist functions, it's hard to seriously discuss Warcraft's magic system from a Watsonian perspective given how wildly inconsistent it's portrayed--in the Third War, teleportation and invisibility were signs of Jaina's prodigious talents, but just a few years later mages of no name or terrible import are maintaining wormholes between Darnassus and Stormwind to enable a large-scale evacuation with little to no preparation.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  14. #14
    In the Tides of Darkness novel, it included Gul'dan raising the Tomb of Sargeras. It was described as him feeling around for the tomb with his magical senses, then latching on to it and pulling it upwards. When it arose, it was bubbling and steaming like a volcanic island.

  15. #15
    Probably smoushed something on the opposite side of azeroth to counter the water table

  16. #16
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
    Posts
    5,537
    Fel magic is some powerful shift. Top 3, if not top 2, strongest magics in the universe.

  17. #17
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    8,837
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Warcraft has one of the softest magic rule systems in fiction. Magic does what the writers need it to do, when they need it to do so.
    it used to be clear even in books that u can't do whatever u want, jaina need to rest eat and drink from feeling exhausted from doing just 2 teleports in 1 single day
    of course now she move ships and hearthstone became official lore not just gameplay, but wow became stupid in magic, not has, back then warcraft actually respected rpg rules, not brutal as D&D but they had clear distinction between mage and warlock
    One of things that at least few opposed in TBC was give mage spellsteal, a spell lore-wise was never associated with mages, and fit more a warlock than a mage (also neither had it to be clear, it was a clear anti-mage spell give to classes like Spell Breakers)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    As of Legion we "know" MU Gul'dan only raised parts of it, but it nonetheless begs the question: How did he raise the islands?

    He is a warlock proficient in death (creating death knights in example), fel and shadow magic, none of which are directly capable of performing such a feat to my knowledge. Of course he could have bound some great elemental (as he did to create his volcano), or perhaps struck a deal with another creature with such power (Deathwing comes to mind, but i have seen no indication that it was him).
    The thing is: I do not know for certain.

    But it also raises another question: To what extent are the magics of Warcraft versatile? Of course within their own realms they can freely shape reality, as seen extensively in the shadowlands, but in normal reality such fantastical non-pewpew natured magic seems mostly limited to the arcane; think of effective telekinesis, transportation, creation, etcetera, as well as, of course, magics that are directly relevant to whatever you wish to shape; nature and elemental magic chiefly.

    Can fel/shadow/death/light magic be used to i.e. raise islands directly? Or is it more constrained to its "stereotypical" behaviour of damaging, healing, corrupting and the like?
    As you said, he can use death magic to force the elements to do the work for him and he can also use death magic to raise the island the same way the Lich King raised the necropolis or that DKs use force choke.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •