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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Click bait title I know... but the question has been growing on my mind for quite from time on both these forums and the official ones. The more I interact with posters I notice the same trend over and over again.

    More.. "hardcore" as much as I find the term inaccurate when they put forth the point they want to make they often build their arguments around the content in the game. They draw exact examples of what they want and why they want it or why they don't. You might not agree with them but it is almost always easy to see where they are coming from.

    Then comes the casual/average player or at least the self identifying ones. Every point they seem to make, every argument they put forth has to do about rewards. I don't think I have actually seen this type of player ever comment on what they actively enjoy in game beyond the rewards the most damning example being.



    I am starting to believe that the lion's share of wow players are so driven by rewards that they actively don't care what the content of the game is so long as it keeps giving them tasks to advance through for power.

    The progression quest joke made manifest if you would.
    http://progressquest.com/

    Am I way off base with this? I want to believe I am but I am honestly no longer certain.
    First of all, I'm average player. And I can PROVE IT. Wow doesn't provide complete player stats from whole playerbase. But there are other games, that do it. It's PVP game, so it's direct comparison with SKILLS of other players.
    Stats:
    Spoiler: 

    Win/Loss:
    Spoiler: 

    Kill/Death:
    Spoiler: 

    And for me current content is WAY TOO HARDCORE. Clarification: for me casual-hardcore = amount of overall effort, I need to put into game. So, it's something between "Trivial, so it's just time-killer" and "Professional/Job/E-Sport/Requires full work shift". And Wow is closer to Job or E-Sport, than to just game. It's more like business, where you work by yourself or pay to others to work for you.

    Simplified explanation, that counts two factors only:
    Spoiler: 
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2021-06-20 at 07:02 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  2. #42
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    The average player doesn't post on forums or any fansites, etc. So I guess it's impossible to say.

    Considering a majority of the playerbase are those players I'd say it's safe to assume they do, though.
    Hi

  3. #43
    I don't enjoy Anima farming because all activities reward too low amounts of Anima. One of my goals for this expansion has been collecting all Covenant stuff for every armour type... And I really don't know if I can manage this until the next expansion hits. I am currently leveling my 5th alt.
    Though I have really enjoyed the Covenant campaigns this far, I love playing the Ember Court and the Path of Ascension, and I dabble a bit in M+.
    Also try to get a bit more gold again, after BfA and the brutosaur have drained my savings, and this works out quite well with the daily Callings.

    I am mixed on Torghast, because I have expected it to be the prime solo player activity - but you get through much more efficient and safely in a group, so this is a disappointment. I really miss the Mage Tower, and Torghast does not live up to that. But in a group and with a bit of luck with buffs, Torghast can be quite fun. Still better than Island Expeditions or Visions.

    Since I don't pvp usually - Legion was a big exception to that - I cannot say anything about that.

    But overall, from a casual PoV I find Shadowlands pretty decent.

  4. #44
    Mechagnome terminaltrip421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    The average player doesn't post on forums or any fansites, etc. So I guess it's impossible to say.

    Considering a majority of the playerbase are those players I'd say it's safe to assume they do, though.
    I don't know that I ever really thought about it but I think you're right given the number of times I've seen people in chat totally unaware of (big) upcoming changes. that means they're not even following news, let alone posting on a fansite forum about their thoughts on the game.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Most casual players don't even go on or post on Reddit much less the living fossil that is a forum.

    Beyond that, the truly casual player base are the people who log on once or twice a week/fortnight or an hour a day (probably less) and putter around doing nonsense, they simply don't care enough about the game to care about airing their opinions.
    People who do go on Reddit or forums even if they self identify as casual are likely people who have devoted significant time to wow but simply lack the time or inclination to do hardcore content at present.

    To put it another way, the 'silent' casual player hasn't played enough to see the systems behind the themepark so they just don't give a shit. The forum casual very likely knows how the sausage is made.
    This is mostly spot on, though the silent casuals are a LITTLE more advanced than that (A sizeable portion of all active players get to the level cap and get at least basic max level gear/do the dungeons) but the gist of this post is basically correct.

    Average players dont go to the official forums. Even less go to Reddit. Even less than that post here.

    They just putter along, get basic PvP (Honor), World Quest, and Heroic dungeon rewards.

  6. #46
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Different strokes for different folks

    My little brother plays Bus Simulator...a lot

    If you think wows WQs and anima is tedious this is literally a game about driving a city bus through a route...he paid $20 for something they make that much an hour for.

    I don't understand it but I also don't have to...he likes it, they make yearly installments (which makes Christmas for him super easy), they have a mod scene, and a semi decent sized community. That is the average wow player if there's a good chunk of people who enjoy a game about driving a bus in a circle....there's a good chunk of people who play wow
    Truck driver sims are a big thing too. Whatever people enjoy is what they should play. Myself, I'm not a big fan of driving a digital 18-wheeler around delivering things. However I can see some of the attraction of driving a bus route and hitting your stops on schedule.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    First of all, I'm average player. And I can PROVE IT. Wow doesn't provide complete player stats from whole playerbase. But there are other games, that do it. It's PVP game, so it's direct comparison with SKILLS of other players.
    oooff...
    how being average IN ANOTHER GAME have anything to do with wow? like... you can be average in another game and still great or crappy, at wow, you can still be hardcore or barely playing...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by terminaltrip421 View Post
    I don't know that I ever really thought about it but I think you're right given the number of times I've seen people in chat totally unaware of (big) upcoming changes. that means they're not even following news, let alone posting on a fansite forum about their thoughts on the game.
    yep, id say vast majority of casuals dont have ANY contact with wow (or other game they play) other than the game itself
    actualy, thats probably true about any other hobby, people who enjoy something casualy dont usualy have any more knowledge than basic
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-06-20 at 09:28 AM.

  8. #48
    I don't know what the average player is anymore. I play(ed) more than what's considered casual, but I don't do mythic+, raid, or PvP. I hit 60 and noped right out of end game. I find the covenant systems convoluted, there are too many currencies, and too many grinds. I don't like the Maw and I haven't seen that Torghast is worth doing. I hate what they've done with WQs, I never know what I'm signing up for anymore. The rewards aren't worth the hassle either. They're not a good source of gear and, as much as I would like some of the vanity items, I'm not willing as long as the anima amounts are so low.

    I've started doing whatever renown quests I can simply because that's how they've decided to gate flying this time, but it's not enjoyable. I usually love questing, but I only liked Bastion and Revendreth this time. I don't like the way they've designed Threads of Fate where you have to forfeit all the storyline quests if you don't want to do specific zones.

    I was spending most of my time in old content (being an altoholic has been the bulk of my subscription since vanilla), but I've since started playing another MMO. I love all my WoW characters, but there's nothing fun to do with them.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    oooff...
    how being average IN ANOTHER GAME have anything to do with wow? like... you can be average in another game and still great or crappy, at wow, you can still be hardcore or barely playing...
    Yeah, it's just one game of many, but we should find some ABSOLUTE measure of casual-hardcore, because "Wow's measure of casual-hardcore" is definitely biased toward hardcore. Who is considered to be casual in Wow has nothing to do with real casual player. We need to do it, because, as you can see from graphs, who is average in absolute - is majority of overall world's playerbase. So we need to compare Wow to other games. This game is actually relatively hardcore, so being average in this game means being average in absolute.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2021-06-20 at 07:28 PM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  10. #50
    I enjoy certain parts of it & don't enjoy others. I made a thread about it recently saying content you don't enjoy but feel like you should do simply because of rewards is shit content, & the less of that stuff there is the better.

  11. #51
    The average person wouldn't play the game if they didn't enjoy it, it doesn't make any sense to play something you don't enjoy.
    Last edited by Donald Hellscream; 2021-06-21 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Bad formulation

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Hellscream View Post
    The average person wouldn't play the game if they didn't enjoy it, unless they are masochists and really like doing something they don't enjoy, which makes no logical sense.
    No no no, i was about to make a thread titled "Why do some people complain and not play WoW"...but i think it would be too boring of a thread...because of how toxic it would become.

    Anyway...

    There are plenty of reasons to complain (not only because they are masochists)
    First of all one thing is common on all complainers:
    "THEY CARE"
    If they "didnt care" they wouldnt be here...so one thing is for sure "they care"
    They could care just to see the game fail or for their own personal gain or even just to see the game do well.

    Some other possible reasons:
    - WoW is the only MMO on the market they perceive as "playable" so they want this one to change and not others
    - Nostalgia
    - Friends
    - Blizzard listens to player feedback a lot of times so they try to change the game they play for their own good

    And others...that is not masochism

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Hellscream View Post
    The average person wouldn't play the game if they didn't enjoy it, unless they are masochists and really like doing something they don't enjoy, which makes no logical sense.
    Many people seemingly do content they don't enjoy simply for the rewards though, with some I spoke to saying they'd rather do content they dislike/don't care about as long as it's rewarding than do content that they enjoy but offers nothing.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Hellscream View Post
    The average person wouldn't play the game if they didn't enjoy it, unless they are masochists and really like doing something they don't enjoy, which makes no logical sense.
    ...doesn't make sense cause masochists you know..ENJOY pain that's why they are Masochists

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, it's just one game of many, but we should find some ABSOLUTE measure of casual-hardcore, because "Wow's measure of casual-hardcore" is definitely biased toward hardcore. Who is considered to be casual in Wow has nothing to do with real casual player. We need to do it, because, as you can see from graphs, who is average in absolute - is majority of overall world's playerbase. So we need to compare Wow to other games. This game is actually relatively hardcore, so being average in this game means being average in absolute.

    Casual: term used by people to osteicize people who care less about the game than them

    Hardcore: term used by people to osteicize people who care more about the game than them

    There will never be a definite answer
    Last edited by Mysterymask; 2021-06-20 at 11:07 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Most casual players don't even go on or post on Reddit much less the living fossil that is a forum.

    Beyond that, the truly casual player base are the people who log on once or twice a week/fortnight or an hour a day (probably less) and putter around doing nonsense, they simply don't care enough about the game to care about airing their opinions.
    People who do go on Reddit or forums even if they self identify as casual are likely people who have devoted significant time to wow but simply lack the time or inclination to do hardcore content at present.

    To put it another way, the 'silent' casual player hasn't played enough to see the systems behind the themepark so they just don't give a shit. The forum casual very likely knows how the sausage is made.
    I feel like this is a really important point like, the people who are discussing on reddit/forums probably aren't really casuals. I remember a discussion about how there wasn't that much to do in TBC and how someone who's guild only plays "casually" had already cleared all the raid content because there perspective of playing casual is 5hrs/day during week days and 12hrs/day at the weekend. On Forums/Reddit peoples definition of casual is basically someone who isn't devoting every second of their life to it if your still going to work, maybe seeing a friend once during the week then that's considered playing "casually".

  16. #56
    I don't really buy that at all. I can buy casuals not being on forums like this, but Reddit has become incredibly mainstream, and the idea that the only people who would browse, or post, on reddit are non-casuals is just nonsense to me. That being said I doubt "the average casual player" would really care about any discussions, they probably just read the odd thing or view fanart and such. Casual players are, generally speaking, easy to please in any game, if the game is even remotely competently run to ensure they don't have their fun or experience ruined.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  17. #57
    Currently the most fun content in Shadowlands is the Ember Court but that's heavily time gated. Before the patch I would play only that once a week, but unfortunately I'm cheap and pay my sub with gold so I need to grind emissaries to pay for it. And that's something I do not enjoy.

  18. #58
    High Overlord Leiandri's Avatar
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    I am an extremely casual player who stopped participating in the standard endgame activities around the end of Legion. I got tired of the neverending gearing treadmill spiced with RNG with no solid achievable goals to strive towards. I do not enjoy timed challenges so I'd barely done any Mythic+ dungeons since their inception back in Legion. I'd been growing weary of the old and archaic combat system that feels the same no matter which class I am trying to play (but especially spellcasters) since the end of Mists and have completely lost any enjoyment from doing the standard combat gaming loop sometime around the start of the BFA. The last time I've had any fun with PvP was back in Tol Barad during Cataclysm. I have moved exclusively on to roleplaying sometime around the 8.3 release and then completely quit the game around the launch of Shadowlands, completely heartbroken about lack of character customization development and the state of the modern story and lore.

    I don't know whether I should be considered an average WoW player having played the game since 2006 and having tried almost all branches of the gameplay, save for rated battlegrounds but I can say with certainty that I do not enjoy the type of content that Blizzard pads their game with.

  19. #59
    Some people mistook my objection to hyperbole and terrible arguments as a defense of SL - it was not. I just absolutely hate the "sky is falling" crowd who all huddle together under an umbrella constructed from absolutely terrible arguments:

    SL sux because:
    there is nothing to do!
    There is too much to do!
    everything is too easy
    everything is too hard
    M+ ruined the game
    M+ is the only thing that matters
    I cant do M+ because "elites"
    I cant pvp because "Elites"
    I cant do M+ because of "bads"
    I cant pvp because of "bads"

    I have never been able to understand why someone cant just say "I dont really enjoy SL so im not playing it". Why is everyone so keen to dissect it and find out specifically why they dont like it? ITS JUST A GAME. I wouldnt do an activity i didnt enjoy if it was free, and i certainly wont bloody PAY to do an activity i dont enjoy. I do understand some people are invested, To some extent i am as well, having played since vanilla like many of you. But certainly not enough to play when im not enjoying myself.

    For me, something about the core gameplay loop just is not enjoyable anymore, so I stopped playing after completing the raid. I am no longer actively following the updates regarding the plans for SL - its not a minor problem for me, I just do not enjoy anything in SL. But that could be ME, not the game - im an old man now, with far more important things to do with my time than do than play a videogame i dont enjoy. My enjoyment of the game started to go down in legion, although there was more than enough i DID enjoy to keep me playing. BfA was barely enjoyable, but i didnt hate the limited time i did spend in game - SL was the first time since 2004 when i asked myself "why am i still playing? When was the last time i actually enjoyed my time in game?".

    I used what was left on my sub to muck around in TBCC, and ended up extending by 1 month to see if my enjoyment level stays the same there, but having played TBC to death in 2007/8, i dont see that lasting long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Casual: term used by people to osteicize people who care less about the game than them

    Hardcore: term used by people to osteicize people who care more about the game than them

    There will never be a definite answer
    Absolute casual - player, who plays some office game like 3-in-row during lunch at work.
    Absolute hardcore - guys, like speedrunners, who play games 24/7 to squeeze that extra frame or grind perfect RNG in order to have WR in some hard game.
    Absolute average - player, who is overall world majority due to normal skill distribution.

    Back, when I was playing consoles, I was playing games, that were considered very hard. But any of that game required only 1 hour a day to play. Game, that requires whole 8 hour work shift in order to play it "properly" - is extremely hardcore. Game, that requires "learning in university" in order to play it "properly" - is extremely hardcore. Game, where majority of content isn't soloable - is extremely hardcore. Game, that requires management skills in order to be played properly - is extremely hardcore. Game, where only professionals, who are paid for playing it, can play it "properly" - is extremely hardcore.

    I'm not bad player. I'm just average, who can't git gut all way up to "super pro", because average - is my natural limit. I played hard games in the past. I played Wow a lot in the past. Sitting for several hours non-stop in front of computer - is bad for health. My health no longer allows me to do it. Once I start to play Wow and do even the most trivial content in Wow, like leveling - I start to feel bad due to excessive grind. And I don't think, that it's good idea to create game, that is like "professional sport", where if you can't do it - we'll find somebody, who will.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

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