Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    To me, "winning" WoW is being among the top players of your class, beating the most difficult bosses as part of top 100, earning Gladiator and being first with having the latest, hardest-to-get shit because YOU played your way there.

    Sorry, there's nothing you can buy in this game, official or through RMT, that'd make you a winner by my standards. Bags? A mount? Level 58? LOL! That's not "winning", that's fucking time-saving.

    So no, WoW is not P2W. Identifying people buying services by other players to get X mount, X ilvl or X achievement is easy as hell. They ain't winners, they're whales. P2Whale at best.

    If someone's of the idea that I don't know... Gathering 10k pet charms, or having the AH vendor mount, or merely reaching a certain level (literally the most basic-ass part of the game) is "winning", then so be it. They can go around professing how they consider Pet Battle champions and players with max level characters, winners at WoW.
    Hey don't be down on the pet battlers and mount collectors. They're legit ways to play and totally understand them being a bit miffed that to complete the game in their chosen way requires a swipe of the credit card. What I don't have patience for is people complaining that boosting a character to the start of a new expansion is winning in any way, shape or form.

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Hey don't be down on the pet battlers and mount collectors. They're legit ways to play and totally understand them being a bit miffed that to complete the game in their chosen way requires a swipe of the credit card. What I don't have patience for is people complaining that boosting a character to the start of a new expansion is winning in any way, shape or form.

    Well sure, I get that people can get miffed, but in the end nobody can ever "win" at that shit without either a) working to get every available mount in-game or b) paying their way to each and every pixel counting for the achievement. That'd be a LOT of money.

    Neither one would be "winning" at the collector's game in my book. I am a pet and mount collector, people having store/tcg/promotion mounts as well as 10+ mounts no longer obtainable on me, don't bother me at all. Especially now that store stuff can be purchased with in-game gold. At 450 unique ones (when I quit months ago) no new player could buy store mounts/TCG mounts and even get close.

    And agreed, the whole "boosting is winning!"-argument is... Tired.

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Seems to me more you're moving the goalpost, but thanks for enlightening the more than obvious options.
    over 800 fucking posts in the thread, sue me for not reading them all. And even with the obvious options, people still gotta be bitches about it and cry on these forums.

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    To me, "winning" WoW is being among the top players of your class, beating the most difficult bosses as part of top 100, earning Gladiator and being first with having the latest, hardest-to-get shit because YOU played your way there.
    Thats not how other games operate as p2w. It doesnt literally mean "to win" and your getting hung up on that. When cash shops offer time gated skips for money, or armor/weapons that increase power, theyre considered p2w. Is New World not p2w because youre not winning the game?

  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    >months later
    >people still buttmad about an optional one-time-per-account boost

    it's the seethe that keeps on seething
    I'm honestly not that against the one time boost in tBC. I understand it helps a lot of ppl who missed out or hated the vanilla leveling process and want to experience tBC alone. Best implementation would be a free one for any account that doesn't have a lv 60 in a server but Blizzard wanted that extra income so it was a financial success.

    I do worry if they expand it to unlimited boosts tbh. It is technically power/advantage behind a paywall.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  6. #846
    I would just like to say again that if this was a conversation about literally any other MMO, everyone would call it p2w. But suddenly it stops being p2w when Blizzard does it.

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    over 800 fucking posts in the thread, sue me for not reading them all.
    I didn't complain you about not reading them, i am pointing out that your opinion contributes nothing of value to any of those threads and essentially is just an insult to those that do not like the cashshop.

    If that was your goal, whatever floats your boat.

  8. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I didn't complain you about not reading them, i am pointing out that your opinion contributes nothing of value to any of those threads and essentially is just an insult to those that do not like the cashshop.

    If that was your goal, whatever floats your boat.
    nOtHiNg oF vAlUe. People can be insulted, they don't pay my bills and i don't give a fuck what they think. bitches gonna bitch, and I'll pay for what i want in-game if i don't feel like sinking the time into it. My days of raiding 30+ hours a week are long gone.

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    People can be insulted, they don't pay my bills and i don't give a fuck what they think.
    That's a pretty low bar, you know?

    "Fuck you, you're not paying my bills, i am allowed to insult you!".

  10. #850
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I would just like to say again that if this was a conversation about literally any other MMO, everyone would call it p2w. But suddenly it stops being p2w when Blizzard does it.
    FFXIV has Expac Boosts as well. It's also not P2W there.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    FFXIV has Expac Boosts as well. It's also not P2W there.
    I am a huge fan of FFXIV.

    I call the boosts in that game p2w too.

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I am a huge fan of FFXIV.

    I call the boosts in that game p2w too.
    What are you winning with a boost? The term has lost all meaning at this point.

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    What are you winning with a boost? The term has lost all meaning at this point.
    It has lost meaning for two reasons:

    1) People tunneling in on the word "win" and making an incorrect assumption that the phrase EVER required a "win", when in fact it is and always has required an ADVANTAGE.

    2) There are two trains of thought regarding what is an isnt P2W, and this was a recent discovery for me. Apparently, in Asia, and in particular in Korea, the term P2W is commonly accepted to NOT include time advantages such as boosts and boosted XP. This could be common in other parts outside of Asia as well, but im not sure.

    The 3rd somewhat unrelated issue is people assuming that anyone who says "I consider this feature to be P2W" to also be saying "P2W is bad" which is absolutely not the case for many, MANY people. And lastly, as companies zig-zag around laws as they evolve and change, so to do their monetization schemes. As such, the definition of a P2W feature is ever changing, constantly shifting. For example, loot boxes CAN be considered P2W, depending on their implementation, however, if you had asked someone in 2002 if they considered loot boxes P2W, they would have replied "a loot box? wtf is a loot box?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    What are you winning with a boost? The term has lost all meaning at this point.
    Another person hung up on the word "win". If you require you to win something, then p2w just doesn't exist by that logic. But it's p2w because you're paying real money for character power. Period. So boosts are p2w.

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Another person hung up on the word "win". If you require you to win something, then p2w just doesn't exist by that logic. But it's p2w because you're paying real money for character power. Period. So boosts are p2w.
    At this point, when I see someone going on about "winning" in these discussions, I just instantly put them in the "flat Earther" camp and move on. I think some lean on it so heavily because they think its their "gotcha!" moment, and they don't really have any other points to raise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  16. #856
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Another person hung up on the word "win". If you require you to win something, then p2w just doesn't exist by that logic. But it's p2w because you're paying real money for character power. Period. So boosts are p2w.
    Actually it does. The term Pay2Win is literally because in many games you could pay Money to have character Power beyond what you could get in the game. If you can achieve it in game it isn't Pay2Win. You can achieve level 58 in game easily.

    Here's an example. A game I played years ago called Zenonia. You could buy Outfits for your characters for real Money. These Outfits not just changed your cosmetic look they also gave huge bonuses to character Attributes. People that didn't buy them were at least 30% weaker. In a straight up PvP fight between 2 People of the exact same Skill and Level, the Person with the PAID FOR item, would automatically win due to having a straight up power advantage due to paying for it.

    That is literally the definition of Pay2Win. Any other definition People like to use is headcanon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    At this point, when I see someone going on about "winning" in these discussions, I just instantly put them in the "flat Earther" camp and move on. I think some lean on it so heavily because they think its their "gotcha!" moment, and they don't really have any other points to raise.
    Ironic you'd say People that understand the easy concept of boosts not being Pay2Win are the Flat Earther types and not the ones that think being lvl 58 in a game which has a max level of 70 is P2W.

    Though the Dunning-Kruger Effect is a thing I guess.

  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    At this point, when I see someone going on about "winning" in these discussions, I just instantly put them in the "flat Earther" camp and move on. I think some lean on it so heavily because they think its their "gotcha!" moment, and they don't really have any other points to raise.
    It's a semantic argument through and through. I argued with a poster I normally agree with for a dozen pages over the barometer used to determine exactly what is or isn't a win. I stand by my assertion that it isn't Pay2Win so much as it's Pay2BLazy but I doubt anybody interested in this discussion at this point is particlarly inclined to challenge their preconceived notions and would rather wallow in self serving smugness over their opinion being more correct than somebody else's.

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Actually it does. The term Pay2Win is literally because in many games you could pay Money to have character Power beyond what you could get in the game. If you can achieve it in game it isn't Pay2Win. You can achieve level 58 in game easily.
    Link me any source where this definition is used. Since you make it clear this is the literal definition of the term, that must come from a reliable source, right? Because all the definitions I have found from a variety of sources do NOT line up with what you are saying. In simple language they all boil down to gaining an advantage over others that either cannot be obtained in game (almost unheard of these days) OR one that would require substantial time without the payment. The reason for the inclusion of the second part is that it encompasses the overwhelming majority of P2W scenarios, buying power unobtainable through normal play is extremely niche and very, very rare.

    Literally the only people arguing about the definition are the ones desperately trying to prove buying 58 levels in classic, is NOT P2W. Everyone else accepts the common definition, one that can easily be googled.

    You say level 58 can be obtained "easily" through normal game-play - what do you think is a fair estimate at the playtime required, through normal play, for the average player? And if it is so "easy", why is this even an issue? I mean if its as easy as you say, surely no one would have paid so much money to skip those 58 levels, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's a semantic argument through and through. I argued with a poster I normally agree with for a dozen pages over the barometer used to determine exactly what is or isn't a win. I stand by my assertion that it isn't Pay2Win so much as it's Pay2BLazy but I doubt anybody interested in this discussion at this point is particlarly inclined to challenge their preconceived notions and would rather wallow in self serving smugness over their opinion being more correct than somebody else's.
    So you have no opinion on what constitutes P2W?
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-28 at 06:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Actually it does. The term Pay2Win is literally because in many games you could pay Money to have character Power beyond what you could get in the game. If you can achieve it in game it isn't Pay2Win. You can achieve level 58 in game easily.

    Here's an example. A game I played years ago called Zenonia. You could buy Outfits for your characters for real Money. These Outfits not just changed your cosmetic look they also gave huge bonuses to character Attributes. People that didn't buy them were at least 30% weaker. In a straight up PvP fight between 2 People of the exact same Skill and Level, the Person with the PAID FOR item, would automatically win due to having a straight up power advantage due to paying for it.

    That is literally the definition of Pay2Win. Any other definition People like to use is headcanon.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ironic you'd say People that understand the easy concept of boosts not being Pay2Win are the Flat Earther types and not the ones that think being lvl 58 in a game which has a max level of 70 is P2W.

    Though the Dunning-Kruger Effect is a thing I guess.
    That's utterly asinine. Once again, by that logic, p2w doesn't exist. It's pretty much universally accepted that using real money to buy ANY form of character power is p2w. You're just doing mental gymnastics to avoid saying anything negative about WoW.

  20. #860
    Paying to gain something that is otherwise inaccessible in the game is literally unheard of these days. You have to go as far back as the days of Silkroad Online to even find games like that. Or the days of Aeria games.

    For any OGs here that remember Allods online. At some point they introduced a system called runes. You had 3 offensive runes and 3 defensive runes. Each rune could get up to I think lvl 10? (my memory slightly fails me). Each rune level gave you several % of offensive and defensive stat multiplications. A character with lvl 10 runes vs a character with lvl 1 runes were at a MASSIVE power difference (like more than double the power). Runes were upgraded by combining them with a dust currency that you could buy in the cash shop costing several thousand euros/dollars to get all of them to lvl 10. However you could also grind in game and turn your currency to cash shop currency to upgrade the runes through grinding. A procedure that had been calculated to take over a year of daily grinding to achieve.
    So in a lot of posters opinion here this system would not be p2w because getting runes to lvl 10 in that game could be done through in game grinding despite you possibly getting pummeled by lvl 10 rune players for an entire year +.

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