Predictions on a new night elf capital city and zone

[ravenmoon]

The city has got to be of practical use and I think, they should make the Night Elf city the Kalimdor equivalent to Stormwind.

I agere it should be equivalent to stormwind.. night elves are a massive race.. they shoudl never have downplayed htem becasue they joined the alliance..

they shoudl be a major multi-zone spannign raec bigger htan humans, but just not involved that much in the allinace. Now nightborne are on the horde, they should start doing many more night elf separate story, involving hte two of them.

not sure what you mean by practical.. but it shudln't be dull, it shoudl show off the nihght elves.. this means it shoudl be very beautiful. beautiful buildigns and beautiful looking gardens and parks. that show the nature love, buildigns that shwo how incredible the kaldorei civilziaiton was wiith a specatcular Temple.

The Highborne quarter would be heavily guilded like you see in Suramar elite quarters, but have reduced amount of nature, whiles the Darnassian home sections have less ornmentation, and more nature, like the pictures I showed, Suramar city exemplifies them.. nature is all over the city, but it's much more in the commons section than in the elite section. This is how night elves do it. highborne section would be heavily gilded, the tradesmen and crafts man would look relaly good, the homes seciton of normal kaldorei overflwoing with nature, and the parks and gardens will be the evidenec of duridis, the temple as evidenec of Elune.

So, you've got a huge portal room (Highborne sections) with Mage trainers, you've got tradesmen and craftsmen quarters, you've got class trainers, you've got the sections of Alliance night elf society like the Sentinels, Wardens, Druids and the Sisterhood, but also - I think a barber's shop and transmog vendors should also go into both the new Night Elf city and the updated Silvermoon.

Yes, ut how you do them is importnat too. Snetinels will have their buildings, then you would have an army fortress buidlign too.. kShowing kaldorei establishing a military which the capital would have a garrison of. You would have mebassies for other alliance races - the they will all be kaldorei buildigns, but like any nation, iti s telling what type of building each race goes for Stormwind, Dalaran and Draenei embassies close tot he highborne quarter.. the last is also near the priest quarter, as is void elf embassy. Dwarven embassy is near craftsman section, while the trades section follows off fromt he portals and embassies.

Mage academy estbalishdedb y the shen'drlaar and new found Farondis highborne, while the Moonguard would have a trainign citadel in the city near the warrirors garrsion.

THere will also be the seat of Governmentmaybe at the central park. I imagine Malfurion and Tyrande's home would be something like this:




they would neither live in the Temple or the forest, but that is where they work. the druidic park that will serve as operations HQ for the druids concerning the night elf nation will have a druidic barrow den approaching Nordrassil while lots of trees.

But again, the city must be practical. I know @ravenmoon, wanted Suramar - but even as a Horde player, Suramar - the city, is not practical for the functions that players need from a racial capital like Stormwind or Orgrimmar. The Nighthold is practical, for what it gives and it could give more, but as far as the in-game city of Suramar...it's too messy to try and navigate around to find your class trainers, profession trainers, portal room, barbers etc. Could work in the Nighthold for Horde players, but not the outer city. That will likely forever remain as part of the Legion outdoor content.

That's a a paragraph telling me it shouldn't be amazing like Suramar. The scope of cities like Suramar and Dazar'alor reflects the night elf epire and torll empirre respectively but they have that level because they also are quest area, dungoens and raids. I thougohly believe a night elf capital shoudl match this, and i think it shoudl be used as a major quest zone, with instances and a raid that has the night elves finally secure their new home at the end. This is the only real reason for justifying them a great new city. Don't forget Suramar is a night elf city, and the nightborne a night elven subrace people. Highmountain is in the same style as Thudnerbluff.. where the Lightforged are similar but differnet to the Draeni... when the High elves build, they build very similar to the blood elves.

Unless it is Suramar, off course it won't be Suramar, but it would be of the similar styles you see. Night elf fans will not want an inferior looking city to their horde aligned sub-race on the horde. Trying to campaign for a race you are not a fan of not to look as incredible as one of their own racial cities.

So while I don't think blizzard would spend ages deisnging a new city, because the night elves won't be the focus of the expansion, but they will be like the Nightborne of 7.0/7.1 - in a world revamp, their city would piece together the buidlgins and structures they have already done for Suramar, Zin'Azshari, Nar'thalas..


they will then largely just organise them and touch them up, do the gardens, do the ornamentation, . probably focus on the minor details. It would be like Zin'Azshari and Suramar rolled in one, but it will look differnet htan Suramar becuase of the lighting, Surmar is cast to be dark, it actually can look very different with different lighting - for nighte lves they will bring out a moon pearl white, lighter purple and a bluer tinges during the night, and the day will shine white like Zin'Azshari does, even with purple/pink well of eternity lake.

The new night elf city and updated Silvermoon should look like polar opposites, but have very similar functions in terms of how players use them.
I also think Silvermoon should serve like the Horde Eastern Kingdoms' Capital. The assets that Orgrimmar has, should also be given to Silvermoon, so then players can choose where they'd like to spend their time.

They will be different, not sure polar opposites. The style of botht he night levs and the blood/high elves is already established.

Suramar and Zin'Azshari look very differnt from the images of Silvermoon we have though they have similarities. The colour scheme is different, and you have many buildings that are differnet, Silvermoon should have uildigns that look a bit similar to Suramar/Zin'aZshari Darnassus:

e.g.



Nothing is quite like the SIlvermoon towers in the back drop, it doesn't exist amongst the kaldorei, not in Suramar, nor Zin'Azshari.. but the gazeebo type hall in this concept art shot above is very similar to the night elf ones.. that style was carried over from what they did for Darnassus.. showing you the connection

yet they are are different enough, the colour scheme is different, the focus different. It's kinda like how Stormwind is different from Lordaeron or Boralus though they are all human, yet you get the distinct feel they are different. Night elf has a much broader range. but it should, it was given much larger scope than the high elves were you have night elven civilization and the priesthood of Elune, but also this very different forest druidic/rural style//

Biggest Motive to make a specatacular Night elf capital

Blizzard want the alliance to be more popular, and they know Warcraft fans love the night elves' civilization.. all the comments of Suramar and Zin'Azshari are the proof you need, yet they've not put that sort of things in the hands of night elves and talked them up.

If there is going to be an alliance resurgence without taking Suramar and Silvermoon, elven Night elf city and a void city are going to have to look very attractive.. Night elf is the main race and in many ways as big as and in other ways bigger than humans lore wise, they also have a substantial fan following - if you want the night elves to dominate the centre of the alliance elves, they need to be incredible.

otherwise, the high elf love will dominate, and the alliance fandom will push blizzard in the direction of more and more high elf /void elf development which while good, will come at the expense of the blood elves, because most of the alliance has always wanted high elves, especially since they were done on the horde - one of the reasons for that is how weak the night elves were shown.

if they had shown of night elf cities not in ruins like we see Suramar now and Zin'Azshari earlier.. done Night elf wardens like they did in legion, demon hunters much earlier, done druids like the dreamwardens, done Highborne like the Nightborne and Farondis in terms of power level, shown powerful Moonguard mages re-established and kicking ass.

People would have been much more excited for night elves. the evidence is clear, while nice, just the nature bits of the night elves have not been enough, we've had more of the druidic aspect than we have had the civilization and the priesthood or the demon hunters -- yet legion proves definitely how incredibly popular the night elf civilization and the demon hunters are, the Wardens and the priesthood when it is being as badass as the Night warrior.

The elements are there.

Nightborne and void elves are allied races.. it's good for them to have something amazing to them. every wow race should, but shouldn't the pinnacle of the horde elves and it's focus be primarily the blood elves and Silvermoon, while that of the alliance elves be The night elves?

it is these two the developers should ensure their new versions also look very worthy of their position as leaders. Silvermoon might need a redesign, the new night elf capital can be a larger and just as detailed version of Suramar and Zin'Azshari..

the void elves can have whatever new place they do for a void invasion expansion, but they should make time for that, or if they are creative merge them, let the night elves and void elves be the new city reflecting both the kaldorei civilization and a void version of the Thalassian one, I mean they're all purple right.


hte other options will be sharing the new Silvermoon and sharing Suramar or outright taking them over.

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[Beloren]

@Tanaria Ravenmoon's album is evidence that the night elves don't need any more designs.

1. They've got 3 iterations of models out already
2. They've got style for rural and urbans
3. Styles for priesthood, arcane motivated civilziation, and druidic nature, styles for demon hunter

When did the Farstriders get their own unique style? When did they distinguish between the light wielding blodo knights and the Magisters? When did we get an update to Silvermoon ?

[ravenmoon]

At first I like each image less than the previous one for a "Kaldorei" city they look like a "High elf" city.

Probably because you've had 15 years of seeing high elf architecture at its best, but only a few years of seeing the night elf stuff. So you can be forgiven for thinking it feels more high elf. most of the kaldorei stuff has been ruins and forest in game - and this is what people associate them with, so they are very surprised to see Suramar and Zin'Azshari, and some who don't check the lore don't even think Suramar is night elven but a new elf concept and culture simply because that surely can't be night elves. So i have to keep pointing them to the lore that tells you this is night elven, and it's not a retcon or a recast, this was there from the very start. Wc3 introduction. they've just taken a long time to show it because they've been largely focused on the horde for a lot of wow, and when it came to the alliance it was humans, humans, humans dominating (and draenei for tbc and woD - who somehow felt second place to humans despite it being for them)

First of all, you have to remember what you are seeing, you are seeing a kaldorei city, and you have to remember, high elves come from kaldorei. While their style is different, when kaldorei do cities, this is what they are like, and this is why the high elves can do cities. You are just use to high elves having really pretty stuff, and night elves having ruins and forests only. yet you never complain that high elf forests remind you of night elves.. which is a duplicity of some fans, they expect only high/blood elves to have elven cities and magic, but don't expect night elves to only have forests and rangers.

it's a good thing blizzard didn't build them to be two halves of hte same coin, but instead different sides of the same coin, which is a different thing. one is the night side, the other day side, but they both have civilization, forests and magic. the way they do each is different, but magic is common, forests is common, cities is common - yet these fans' brains seem to switch of insisting they have to be different (which they are) but different in that only blood elves get to have nice elven cities and be good at magic - and night elves shouldn't because that would make them too similar to blood elves - i guess humans forgot the memo, and these fans definitely forgot the part when blizzard told them elven civilization and magic both come from the night elves.. This is why night elves have it to greater extent, forest to great extent arcane and cities to greater extents, - this is how they set it up to be, because the relationship between night elves and blood elves is not like it is between high elves or void elves and blood elves - i.e. peers on the same level. No, it's like parents to children, authors to off shoots.

this is the what blizzard went for, they didn't go for your DnD - oh these are wood elves, and these are high elves and these are dark elves and they just have this one thing to them. they gave high elves a wood elf element, a light elf element and the arcane magic element. They gave night elves the dark elf part, the forest elf part and also the deep religious part too,.

2. Also high elves are not more advanced than kaldorei.. just because Darnassians chose to live outside cities because of the long vigil for 10,000 years, doesn't mean they don't know them nor hate them, the same night elves that built those kaldorei cities are still around, and the Highborne mages and druid ancient trees that developed them are still there.



It's the mindset and impression of night elves that needs to change, you need to keep remembering night elf isn't just forest homes and trees, but it is great civilization too, this is why you struggle to accept what blizzard shows you now. But blizzard always established this about the night elves from the get go, in Wc3's manual, you are told though you aren't shown. in War of the Ancients Trilogy , that was written while Wc3 was being developed, they establish the launching story of the night elves, you experience them 10,000 years after their first era, at the end of their second era in Wc3, but their story is from the pre-sundering era.

Blizzard wants them to be the best of the dark elves and the forest elves, which is why you have great cities and temples to Elune as well as wild forests, walking tree people and druids that turn into animals - all under a night sky lit with stars and wonder.





This is night elven - you only now seeing it (image is a recoloured version of Cathedral of Eternal Night, by Hipnosworld, the number 1 temple of Elune and head quarters of the order of Elune. This isn't Highborne or Nightborne - there is no distinction between Highborne and night elf architecture, it's the same people, the Highborne were the highest echelon of the ruling class - they will be in the most expansive buildings, barring the priest caste - cos you know, the order of Elune is the oldest night elf institution.

But the first one (and the one that you have ojas narnjas) I like a lot.

Then this makes me realize the great problem with Lore Kaldorei. The Horde get tired of finding so many Kaldorei things (that half are elven things so they are valid for both). But at the same time None (or almost none) of those things are really for the Kaldorei.

It's like there is the "Cake of the Kaldorei" But nobody can eat them.
In my case and the one that touches me the most. You have all these Wardens structures and a Wardens Dungon you even have two sonas if you count Cata. But you have 0 Wardens lore in all of WoW.
You don't have a history of helping a Wardens or something like that develop pj.
(Unlike for example the quest to help the Gobling Leader in Drenor for the spores that return to all monsters).
Either the Kaldorei don't need you or they are damsels who have to be saved.


PS: Unfortunate. How are you going to call an Ancioano a "mobile home"? He is a brother. It's like a Gobling saying that a Tauren is a "moving house".

[/QUOTE]

The way you solve this is properly getting what the kaldorei are. they are more than just some minor forest elf half race with nothing but forests.

Blizzard designs them to be the origin of the elves, and the world's largest empire of any race, and it's most advanced civilization especially in magic. It gave them a nature love with wild forests and deer people, htis is the forest elf half, and it gave them intense magic, a goddess, dark skin and a great civilization - this is the dark elf side.

they literally combined the best of the forest elves and dark elves.. and this what the night elves are.


Blizzard show that both long vigil and pre-sundering elements are part of the night elves and continue to be part of them. Suramar is not less night elven because those night elves are now Nightborne. As Nightborne, they have built nothing new, and have done nothing that isn't night elven .. why do they have to anyway?

their ENTIRE purpose is to be and show the kaldorei civilization side - this is why they are just a city. they are an allied i.e. sub-race, part of the bigger larger race. this is why the actual night elves will also have a great city ,but in addition they would have great temples reflecting the priesthood and great forests showing that forest elf side.


Together they are the night elves.

You say the horde gets tired of finding kaldorei things, but this is what the northern and western half of Kalimdor is and half of the broken isles, they and Naz'jatar are all that remains of the civilization of the night elves that spanned the entire world. But you will find them in those areas.. They are not in Durotar southwards at all, so central and southern Kalimdor has no sign of them, the Eastern kingdoms have no sign of them, Northrend only has 2, Crystal song forest, and western Borean tundra

Pandaria has no sign of them, the rest of the island continents have no sign of them..

the night elves' scope is meant to be big... they weren't initially mean t to be an insignificant race part of the alliance faction. The undead as in scourge a massive counterpart too.. they have most of northrend, and a good slice of northern eastern kingdom.

But the orcs and humans dominate the rest of the race incredibly in wow, but in warcraft the night elves are supposed to be huge as is the undead. Still humans and orcs are sitll more dominant.

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PS: Unfortunate. How are you going to call an Ancioano a "mobile home"? He is a brother. It's like a Gobling saying that a Tauren is a "moving house".

THa'ts tht hing, I didn't call them that, blizzard did, in warcraft 3 they were howusing /base units - one of their features was they got up and walked.. the ingthe lves had very mobile forces, it is part of the lore of hte long vigil section.


the thing is, what yous ee in WC3 was not all that was intended for night elves, and the manual and war of the ancients trilogy tell you see. It would not surprise people who read their lore from the games and books (not just wowpedia), to see places like Suramar, Zin'Azshari and the great temples of elune, nor the Highborne, the Moonguard and the Demon hunters .. i'll forgive them for knowing the wardens because they are featured in Wc3..


Because of classic when they think night elf architecture they think of the village buildings, ruins and forests - people like me have abeen asking blizzard to do a great night elf city like the ones they wrote about in the pre-sudneirng cera for a very long time


They finally did Surmaar and Zin'Azshari - the two most famous ones, althogh th elatter was in a cut-scene not actually in game, In game we got the ruins, not hte full thing.

but it's all part of the lore:
night lve have
1. lots of ruins
2. Lots of forests

but they also have a range of the styles I went through and showed you as many pictures for.

So when blizzard do new stuff for them, it would be better than the previous. The question now is will blizzard design even newer stuff for them or use the Legion/BFA stuff.

I think the answer is in what it's used for. If night elves have the fortune of being at the centre of an expansion again, it will be new stuff. If it's just a revamp, then it would be Suramar/Zin'Azshari stuff for the city, and darkshore/Val'sharh stuff for rural areas.

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@Tanaria Ravenmoon's album is evidence that the night elves don't need any more designs.

1. They've got 3 iterations of models out already
2. They've got style for rural and urbans
3. Styles for priesthood, arcane motivated civilziation, and druidic nature, styles for demon hunter

When did the Farstriders get their own unique style? When did they distinguish between the light wielding blodo knights and the Magisters? When did we get an update to Silvermoon ?

1. You will get your update when they go back to you, probably when they update the high elves and do a huge Thalassian elf centred expansion with blood elves representintg the horde and high elves with void elves the alliance


2. Rural archhitecture is just like night elvens.. these are how night elves did lodges in the pre-sundering era, and that style never changed.. it didn't hcange with the high elves either. The thing is it's just htat many more nighte lves live out in the open forests so you see much more of it with them while most high elves live in a city or town/village. so you see less

Quel'danil Lodge




Here also is Quel' Lithien





Farstrider Lodge in Loch Modan



But but that's Night elf architecture.... no silly, it's elven architecutre, high elves use night elf architecture a lot, and they also have htier own unique rchitecture independent.

Stop assuming that because it's rich and beautiful it can't be night elven.

Astranar village - this may have been built post WC3,



but Starfall village is from before the sundering




There you have it - night elf architecture from rural places is different.

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We know that Elune is going to be a bigger part of this expansion at some point. There is a possibility Tyrande ends up getting something from her to help restore Teldrassil.

True, there is Does that mean they'll redesign Teldrasisl and make it the centre piece of the new expansion, they did say a raid is going to be involved. perhaps they would make it the centre piece of the revamp. Now that's what I'm talking about... We got Suramar and the broken isles in Legion, Naz'jatar and Zin'Azshari in BFA, would be lovely to have a properly done 10.0 with a new style that merges the other styles. like this picture:




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Hope they restore the Elven immortality and lack of diseases then too.

oh yeh.. definitely..

1. Immortality - can come back by using the Well of eternity. This is easy to see. There is no longer any reason to hide the power, the night elves need it now to both rebuild after their long vigil and being nearly wiped out, and to defend themselves. they now have the expertise to do so , they should
2. Immunity to environmental elements and normal sickness. - This can come from their connection to the Emerald dream, druids should use their power to connect the night elves to the Emerald dream, allowing vitality and immunity to environmental elements of heat and cold, and no longer getting sick from diseases
3. The Night warrior ritual, and the growth of Elune's power and influence in them from Tyrande's efforts should open up a greater visibility and effect of their connection tot he stars - not sure how this would play out but night elf racial offensive abilities will all be star and moon arcane magic spells.

None of this affects gameplay, being immortal is not quantifiable by gameplay, you still get hurt if you're slashed or you are hit with a spell
Being immune to environmental elements does not make you invulnerable to magical elemental attacks.. from elementals or shaman and mages.
Being immune to natural disease does not make you immune to magical ones cast by witches and warlocks, it just means you don't get natural sick, and that means nothing to gameplay.

[geco]

@ravenmoon
There are certain things that I do not agree in the least.
The history of the kaldorei is that they want to get away from the empire Kaldorei have been trying for 10,000 years to be different from them and your idea is that they build a capital of the empire?
You get confused with the Name what you usually call "Kaldorei" is the Empire. The Kaldorei and high elves descend from the Empire.

The High Elves have forests that are numbered artificially have "great gardens". The Kaldorei have forests. I do not see any similarity.
Ruin buildings are usually tall buildings. What the Kaldorei do not want to be.
Your way is more and more like building a Silvermoon 3.0 and saying that it is the capital of the Kaldorei. What goes against their entire history for 10,000 years and will end up turning only dark-skinned high elves.
It's like whatever they want the orcs to go back to taking demon blood and being a Horde of destruction again which is throwing all the lore of the Horde in the trash.

Without going deeper, the last image you uploaded in the previous post marks how things should be seen.
The Kaldorei have had 10,000 years to create their own architecture other than the Highborne and Azhara.

Second, the Kaldorei are indeed Forest Elves From Warhammer + Drow from D&D. His goddess is a mix between Seluene and Eilistraee.
From the Drow they get their skin color and the fact that women are Dominant.

Another thing. The elderly are not "home". You cannot enter them. That's like thinking that siege weapons actually eat because they consume food.
The elders train the new recruits.

The last thing you got me wrong about one thing. The issue I don't know about "Many Kaldoire Sones" is that most of those sonas are not interesting to the Kaldorei.
Because 90% of those Kaldorei sonas are garbage. So they are not Kaldorei sonas, they are forests with some ruins.
The SW forest is an excellent example of that. I do not know a Sona Kaldorei and in the end it seems that she is not going to contribute almost anything to the Kaldorei. But the Horde also don't see it as Horde or Neutral.
Instead of being a Kaldore-Troll sona. It is a forest of rare fairies that nobody cares about and in an expansion we will forget about them.
Since Tyrande was going to "calm down" you could have Tyrande and Voljin working together. Or Put Talanji (If you have to use someone alive)

Blizzard has to stop wasting so many sounds (it has been getting better at that). We have so many generic backstories that nobody cares about the Kaldorei on the subject that they don't even look like development but we don't have a single story about how Maiev and Tyrande reconcile.

And I do not start talking about all the horde sounds that do not contribute but let's summarize that if Talanji and his father were born from 3 areas. By the amount of Horde zones you should already have a spare cast of characters.


PS: The war of the ancestors was written at the same time as W3 ... how they failed so much.
@Moozart Rebuilding the tree would be saying "the plot doesn't matter."
But having the power to create another tree or heal Hyjal would be interesting.
@Beloren What you say is the accumulation of areas that do not make anyone happy.
Can you imagine that in the next expansion Silvermoon recreated only for the Naga to window and destroy it?

You have all those Kaldorei Models but they did not finish a story of the Kaldorei or well you have the 3 times that they kill that Satiro.
That is, if there are all the models that are needed to make the new lore. Only the lore is missing.

I'm starting to believe that Blizzard has already given up on their story team and finds them useless and now hopes that the art team will be the one to save things.

[ravenmoon]

@ravenmoon
There are certain things that I do not agree in the least.
The history of the kaldorei is that they want to get away from the empire Kaldorei have been trying for 10,000 years to be different from them and your idea is that they build a capital of the empire?
You get confused with the Name what you usually call "Kaldorei" is the Empire. The Kaldorei and high elves descend from the Empire.

That's not the history of the Kaldorei. That's fan error from misunderstanding.

The history says the Burning Legion came and destroyed everything, night elves hate the legion because they destroyed everything.

Night elves chose to spend their time guarding against the Legion instead of rebuilding their lives, this great commission or mandate is called the Long Vigil - this is why they don't build cities , use arcane magic, don't interact with anyone. It is their sacred duty to defend the world against he legion they summoned.. this is the story for the long vigil.


It is not "the night elves want to get away from the empire kaldorei" at all.

Read the story. The long vigil ended in WC3, this is why night elves now have cities, and arcane magic and are building themselves up for the first time in 10,000 years, blizzard provided a reason for why they are this way, and how they were that way, it's just part of their story, they have a different story to other races. Both empire and long vigil are part of the night elves.. and both continue in them as they find a way forward for today.

Second, the Kaldorei are indeed Forest Elves From Warhammer + Drow from D&D. His goddess is a mix between Seluene and Eilistraee.
From the Drow they get their skin color and the fact that women are Dominant.

Yes, and this is why you have great kaldorei cities, great forests and priestesses - but blizzard gave them a few unique things too, for example, these elves spanned the entire globe, these elves are focused on starlight and moonlight and is a key part of their identity.

the way they combined dark elves and forest elves, was not just imply adding the two together, they made it unique, took the best portions of each, this si why you have this variation.

Night elves were made as a faction. Do you understand what this means? It means that just the forest was never meant to be the only thing. People only think that because they see Wc3 night elves with trees and classic, but they don't read the books and now in game they see the other parts, you shouldn't be struggling with this. You see night elven Moo priestesses and their temples, you see night elven casters too - Highborne, moonguard and others, you see night elven cities too, you should now nkow they are more than just a forest elf.

[Beloren]

@ravenmoon
There are certain things that I do not agree in the least.
The history of the kaldorei is that they want to get away from the empire Kaldorei have been trying for 10,000 years to be different from them and your idea is that they build a capital of the empire?
You get confused with the Name what you usually call "Kaldorei" is the Empire. The Kaldorei and high elves descend from the Empire.

The High Elves have forests that are numbered artificially have "great gardens". The Kaldorei have forests. I do not see any similarity.
Ruin buildings are usually tall buildings. What the Kaldorei do not want to be.
Your way is more and more like building a Silvermoon 3.0 and saying that it is the capital of the Kaldorei. What goes against their entire history for 10,000 years and will end up turning only dark-skinned high elves.
It's like whatever they want the orcs to go back to taking demon blood and being a Horde of destruction again which is throwing all the lore of the Horde in the trash.

Without going deeper, the last image you uploaded in the previous post marks how things should be seen.
The Kaldorei have had 10,000 years to create their own architecture other than the Highborne and Azhara.

Second, the Kaldorei are indeed Forest Elves From Warhammer + Drow from D&D. His goddess is a mix between Seluene and Eilistraee.
From the Drow they get their skin color and the fact that women are Dominant.

Another thing. The elderly are not "home". You cannot enter them. That's like thinking that siege weapons actually eat because they consume food.
The elders train the new recruits.

The last thing you got me wrong about one thing. The issue I don't know about "Many Kaldoire Sones" is that most of those sonas are not interesting to the Kaldorei.
Because 90% of those Kaldorei sonas are garbage. So they are not Kaldorei sonas, they are forests with some ruins.
The SW forest is an excellent example of that. I do not know a Sona Kaldorei and in the end it seems that she is not going to contribute almost anything to the Kaldorei. But the Horde also don't see it as Horde or Neutral.
Instead of being a Kaldore-Troll sona. It is a forest of rare fairies that nobody cares about and in an expansion we will forget about them.
Since Tyrande was going to "calm down" you could have Tyrande and Voljin working together. Or Put Talanji (If you have to use someone alive)

Blizzard has to stop wasting so many sounds (it has been getting better at that). We have so many generic backstories that nobody cares about the Kaldorei on the subject that they don't even look like development but we don't have a single story about how Maiev and Tyrande reconcile.

And I do not start talking about all the horde sounds that do not contribute but let's summarize that if Talanji and his father were born from 3 areas. By the amount of Horde zones you should already have a spare cast of characters.


PS: The war of the ancestors was written at the same time as W3 ... how they failed so much.
@Moozart Rebuilding the tree would be saying "the plot doesn't matter."
But having the power to create another tree or heal Hyjal would be interesting.
@Beloren What you say is the accumulation of areas that do not make anyone happy.
Can you imagine that in the next expansion Silvermoon recreated only for the Naga to window and destroy it?

You have all those Kaldorei Models but they did not finish a story of the Kaldorei or well you have the 3 times that they kill that Satiro.
That is, if there are all the models that are needed to make the new lore. Only the lore is missing.

I'm starting to believe that Blizzard has already given up on their story team and finds them useless and now hopes that the art team will be the one to save things.

This is Warcraft.. everything is created to be destroyed.

Let's see what cities haven't been destroyed yet.. they'll be next


But just cos you've been destroyed doesn't mean you won't come back though, it makes the coming back even more exciting.. which is probably why they'll go for a night elf Zin'Azshari type.

I just hope they don't spend time at the expense of rebuilding already destroyed Silvermoon properly

- - - Updated - - -

...

I wasn't the one sying the elves don't have similar stuff - iplay the game too all you do is provide more evidence why night elves shouldn't get more stuff for them.

if they wnat a new city, why waste time building it.. serilsuly just copy paste bits of Suramar and n ar'thalas and confugre it a bit like zin'Azshari and boom.. done

come work on my city please.. it needs an actaul overhal/redesign.

[Thelxi]

Assuming the game stays alive long enough, I'm sure it'll happen eventually but probably as part of an expansion with actual functionality. I don't think they'll just plop down an AH and bank somewhere in Feralas for the roleplayers.

[ravenmoon]

Assuming the game stays alive long enough, I'm sure it'll happen eventually but probably as part of an expansion with actual functionality. I don't think they'll just plop down an AH and bank somewhere in Feralas for the roleplayers.

Agreed. cities serve no function to warrant doing for the sake of being cities.

they must either provide raids , dugneons or quest zones

sadly

[shoc]

Why do they even need a capital city and a home zone? Makes no sense. Every other race doesn't have one and it's fine.

[username993720]

Why do they even need a capital city and a home zone? Makes no sense. Every other race doesn't have one and it's fine.

Because they had one?

[shoc]

Because they had one?

Seems kind of arbitrary to me. Homeless suits the Night Elves IMO.

[geco]

@Beloren
But let's go back to the beginning.
Nothing limits to being a single city per town and nobody here is talking about creating really new designs
@ravenmoon talks about Suramar 2.0 and I about a kind of recycling of everything in a Forest-City.

@ravenmoon
No. I don't see anything in game or in history that says today's elves want to have a Suramar-style city again. Wota was 10,000 years ago and nobody showed there to miss something. It is more quiet that those who missed that died.

The closest thing is that Maiev says that he wants to see Darmassus again in Illidian's novel. But that was a typo because Maiev had never been to Darmassus.

About what they are a Faction. That doesn't affect what I'm saying at all. I never said that there don't have to be temples or fortresses. I said instead of all being squeezed into a small harea. make them in a larger area in tune with the forest.
By the way, give them a different personality to other cities.

So you say that you have to have a Highborne district, one of druids, one of temples. A sound of Wardens etc.
I say I continued to have all that but separated. In the same way but not so close.
I mean as if you had to cross a park every time you have to go from one "neighborhood" to another. Of course, instead of a park it is a forest.

---- Here I am going to let my imagination fly ---
As @Beloren says, cities are to be attacked. But I think you can make a turn and create a city that is more like a leveling zone with its stories. We only found a passage area that looks very nice but then you go past it and just go shopping.

Besides, 50% of the interesting things of the lore and the world are not in mechanics and in the case of Kaldorei even more. Imagine a sona in which you help the Diadras or that you help raise Chimeras. They do not provide anything "functional" to the player, it is just one more level zone.

[ravenmoon]

@ravenmoon talks about Suramar 2.0 and I about a kind of recycling of everything in a Forest-City.

Who nkows blizard could do a forest city - like Loth'lorien and make it really cool.. it's just that most of the time they've done stuff like that it's looked a lot worse than what they did for night elves. meaning Zin'Azshari, Suramar. And they did design Suramar for night elves. Nightborne are night elves (I'm pretty sure until the point in 7.1's development they decided they'll become an allied race, they were going to be restored to night elves.

Suramar is the most important city to the Darnassian kaldorei , with Val'Sharah next door, Azsuna for open Highborne country, and the temple of Elune across the bridge - everything concerning the night elves and their history revealed so far is there - the main locations for the night elves we play. After Zin'Azshari came, we have it all, all the parts fro War of hte Ancients and the parts from Warcraft 3 are now fully in the game.

The iconic places like suramar and Black Rook hold and many new places

@ravenmoon
No. I don't see anything in game or in history that says today's elves want to have a Suramar-style city again. Wota was 10,000 years ago and nobody showed there to miss something. It is more quiet that those who missed that died.

And you don't see anything in the game that says they want to have a city in the forest, or have a forest either.

I don't think I've seen any race stay they want to have a city, somewhere lost their city like Gnomeragan want it back. never seen the Darkspears say they want a city or the wildhammers - it's not the sort of thing a race says, unless that is the one thing they are about.. the gnomes were all about getting Gnomeragan back.

The closest thing is that Maiev says that he wants to see Darmassus again in Illidian's novel. But that was a typo because Maiev had never been to Darmassus.

Did she? at what point of the story is this? If this is while chasing Illidan in outland, depending on the stage, Darnassus is already built before we go into the dark portal for TBC, according tot he timeline possibly about 6 years by that time.

About what they are a Faction. That doesn't affect what I'm saying at all. I never said that there don't have to be temples or fortresses. I said instead of all being squeezed into a small harea. make them in a larger area in tune with the forest.

Oh, not saying you were, I sometimes do that btw, say something extra, sometimes it seems I'm accusing you of thinking that way, but sometimes it is just addressing other arguments others have brought up , for your benefit in part, but also

By the way, give them a different personality to other cities.

Would be nice, but unlikely.

So you say that you have to have a Highborne district, one of druids, one of temples. A sound of Wardens etc.
I say I continued to have all that but separated. In the same way but not so close.
I mean as if you had to cross a park every time you have to go from one "neighborhood" to another. Of course, instead of a park it is a forest.

Don't have to, but I was merely setting up how a city would be organised.. people who can't imagine a city for night elves, or what they would need the city for, what would they do in a city, what would it have.

What do you think the developers do when they design cities? what buildings are there and the purpose they serve even though you aren't ever told unless it has an obvious function..e.g. a class trainer is a good indicator that this building is where the class is based.

[FAILoZOFF]

Looking at the current situation of WoW in general and what they've spent 8 months working on, I am going to wish you luck, because I very much doubt they care enough about pre-existing races / characters / nations that have nothing to do with the current main-plot, or isn't directly linked to some humongous, universe-ending catastrophe. Unless they decide to mix in the next borrowed power system, in which case no one is going to like the new city.

this,
not achance

[geco]

Did she? at what point of the story is this? If this is while chasing Illidan in outland, depending on the stage, Darnassus is already built before we go into the dark portal for TBC, according tot he timeline possibly about 6 years by that time.

We. But she not she leaves in W3 but Darmasus is built later in WoW Vanilla.

-He snaps his fingers-
Now we go to the fun Districts and things that should be in the new city / Zone.

Highborne neighborhood.
Druidic neighborhood.
neighborhood Warden and neighborhood Centinelas. (Although if there is a function I do not complain).
Neighborhood of the Ancient,
Diadras neighborhood,
The temple.
Sona of the Exiled (Sira dalarin and the others.)
Warguen neighborhood.
Dranei neighborhood. (Maybe some Dranei who want to join Elune or who want to train her cult of Light and see them as crazy.)

Besides there must be sounds of the taps, Cats and chimeras. Although they can be shared with other sonas.

If you add a line of 6 quests per neighborhood, you already have an area that incidentally establishes a "and that's how things are."


PS: If there is a spread of 2 or 4 cities of basic races with that level of quest, I go squarely. (as long as it is not Human and others)

[Tanaria]

SNIP- - - Updated - - -

Ok.

Firstly - I never made any reference to Suramar being big and beautiful. I'm not even thinking about that...in fact, being as big as it is, puts it at a disadvantage because the functionality of the city itself, doesn't work in the same way as Orgrimmar or Stormwind or Silvermoon. How big and wonderful it looks doesn't factor in to how a city can be used. If the city is annoying to navigate, people simply won't go there. Plus, Suramar is part of the Legion outdoor content - I can't see Blizzard even giving it an in-game Horde make-over, let alone an Alliance one.

The best we can hope for is a few updates to the phased Nighthold for the Horde players. Maybe introduce a Scryer Arcanist who can set up portals to Silvermoon and Outland Shattrath..
I'd also just stick to Blood Elves and Night Elves - I wouldn't include the High Elves in this since they aren't a playable race and the main two core Elven races that are playable are what we are comparing. Horde Blood Elves and Alliance Night Elves.

The alternative to this is to create a city that is an updated Darnassus with very Druidic, Priestly and Sentinel themes, but then go back and update Eldre'Thalas as an Alliance questing hub, where the Shen'dralar/Highborne lore primarily takes place. Obviously, you'd still have Shen'dralar in the main city, but a lot of Shen'dralar lore would take place in their homeland of Feralas and their home of Eldre'Thalas.

Secondly - I'm all in favor of showcasing the night elf and blood elf armies, but the likelihood is extremely slim. The Demon Hunters are NOT part of the core Alliance Night Elves or the core Horde Blood Elves. They are a neutral faction, by all accounts. We'd have more to go on if Kayn became a Horde Demon Hunter and Kor'vas became an Alliance Demon hunter, but that never happened.
Again, the best we can hope for is a merged effort between the Kaldorei and Sin'dorei Demon Hunters of the Illidari, taking down the next big threat. They are brothers and sisters in arms and have worked together and actually experienced the trials and tribulations to become what they are. We only have our player characters which are either night elves or blood elves, but they aren't a representative of the Demon Hunters serving their respective nations. It didn't happen with the Ebon Blade until Thassarian and Koltira met in Andorhal during Cataclysm.

Thirdly - don't worry about high elves dominating the lore. They actually can't on their own because they are dependent on the Blood Elves getting lore. Look through the expansions like WoTLK, MoP and Legion. The High Elves were only used to spur on either Sin'dorei lore or the start of Ren'dorei lore. They aren't a race that can hold an expansion like the Blood Elves or Void Elves could.

Fourthly - As I said before, Alliance can have Silvermoon, after it's been revamped for the Horde and the Alliance can wait however many years after. So if an updated Silvermoon happens in 2023, that will be 17 years after the playable Blood Elves came out, so the Alliance can wait 17 years for a possible update to Silvermoon, but it's highly unlikely that Blizzard will do this, because Silvermoon and the Exodar are noted as the last bastions of Horde and Alliance presence and the fact is, due to the reception of BfA, I honestly don't believe it's in Blizzard's best interest to explore more races losing their cities and they've already said that they are done with faction wars for the time being, so honestly - Silvermoon/Quel'Thalas update for the Horde and the Horde keep it's Horde nation. With it, Lordaeron updated again for the Forsaken. Night Elven city, plus a restored questing hub of Eldre'Thalas, plus an updated Azuremyst and Bloodmyst for the Alliance.
Also - Alliance getting more Horde lands will just make the Alliance playerbase look very whiney and I don't think Blizzard need more excuses to mock the already fading Alliance fanbase.

[ravenmoon]

We. But she not she leaves in W3 but Darmasus is built later in WoW Vanilla.

I see what you mean.. the thing is it's hard to tell because they never tell a continuous story. Maiev could have been going back and forth, unless the book says she didn't.

the Wardens do establish the vault after WC3 - or at last I think they did, preusmably after her disagreement with Tyrande, they establish it there. i don't nkow the lore of the Vault of the Wardens, was it htere all thoguhout hte long vigil/ It seems very grand and ancient, yet, the night elves of Kalidmro didn't leave to go south of Ashenvale (very rare excpetionsonce every few generations of Tauren, and the war of the shifting sands -where the only way the lore in Feralas can be maintained is if they sailed or

-He snaps his fingers-
Now we go to the fun Districts and things that should be in the new city / Zone.

Highborne neighborhood. definitely, could be , not an eliet secition like Suramar but maybe somethign fancy like the enclave of the Highborne. Their homes, the mage academy too perhaps.
Druidic neighborhood. this would be only a handful of druids. not in houses of any sort, but in the park, maybe a tree like Aldrassil and a Barrow den - it's a headquarter , but most druids live deep in the forest
neighborhood Warden and neighborhood Centinelas. (Although if there is a function I do not complain). -they would each have their buildings. The Warden one is where the rogues train - warden class is very rogue like, Darnassian intelligence is also near by
Neighborhood of the Ancient, -This can be in the largest park like a circle of ancients like the one in Darkshore, but also Ancients use to freely work Kaldorei cities, Suramar had them, we see Dire Maul having them, there many had gone corrupt - but you would see ancients walking around - not a neightbourhodo for them.
Diadras neighborhood, - what is diadras?
The temple. - Grand temple of elune like the one on the Broken shore - Seat of the night elf Government for now
Sona of the Exiled (Sira dalarin and the others.)
Warguen neighborhood. - worgen district makes sense, should it be a tree l ke in Darnassus again? I don't think
Dranei neighborhood. (Maybe some Draenei who want to join Elune or who want to train her cult of Light and see them as crazy.) -As the ngiht elves biggest Allies they would have a quarter too, much night elf draenei interaction, trade, craft, shaman trainers, Citadel of the light, crystals too

Besides there must be sounds of the taps, Cats and chimeras. Although they can be shared with other sonas. - Yes, teh city would be alive with plants, gardens and animals too - unlike how those in Suramar live, the beautiful gardens are full of life, you can see all manner of Sabers, chimera roosts, Hippogryphs, faerie dragons in the gardens and parks - beautiful buildigns interlaced with nature and magic

If you add a line of 6 quests per neighborhood, you already have an area that incidentally establishes a "and that's how things are."


PS: If there is a spread of 2 or 4 cities of basic races with that level of quest, I go squarely. (as long as it is not Human and others)

We'll have to give humans a section though, they are the biggest alliance members, just not sure what it would look like.

[Tanaria]

We'll have to give humans a section though, they are the biggest alliance members, just not sure what it would look like.

You have to anyway because of the humans from Gilneas.

Worgen/Night Elf/Gilnean Human are a strong unit as it was these who fought during the Battle for Darkshore.

I mean, with all these different factors to consider, might it be better if the capital city stuck to those more Druidic, Priest-like and Sentinel assets that were very prevelant in Darnassus, along with the Worgen/Gilnean Human section, but then have Eldre'Thalas restored and this is where the majority of the Shen'dralar/Highborne/Moon Guard lore takes place, along with a bit of Ren'dorei and High Elf lore as well?

Eldre'Thalas wouldn't be the capital, but it would show more of the Night Elven Mages and what they can do, rather than being in a city with lots of stuff going on already?

[cirdanx]

That's not the history of the Kaldorei. That's fan error from misunderstanding.

The history says the Burning Legion came and destroyed everything, night elves hate the legion because they destroyed everything.

Night elves chose to spend their time guarding against the Legion instead of rebuilding their lives, this great commission or mandate is called the Long Vigil - this is why they don't build cities , use arcane magic, don't interact with anyone. It is their sacred duty to defend the world against he legion they summoned.. this is the story for the long vigil.


It is not "the night elves want to get away from the empire kaldorei" at all.

Read the story. The long vigil ended in WC3, this is why night elves now have cities, and arcane magic and are building themselves up for the first time in 10,000 years, blizzard provided a reason for why they are this way, and how they were that way, it's just part of their story, they have a different story to other races. Both empire and long vigil are part of the night elves.. and both continue in them as they find a way forward for today.

Well, the long vigil, as far as i understand it, was more of a restructuring their society following the sundering and them throwing out the high elves and thus building a new life for them. Please point out with source where it say it´s because they take responsibility of the Legion. That doesn´t make even sense, as the survivors had hardly anything to do with it and fought against them.

The night elves are not the “good” guys. WotA actually shows that well. And as much shit some “lore fans” give the Knaak books, they did more for NE lore than Blizzard ever did.

Also, if we are within the extended lore, the Legion didn´t destroy everything, the dragon soul as well as the old gods played their role. It also explained very well why they didn´t “like” magic.

Who nkows blizard could do a forest city -

I wouldn´t even count on getting anything that resembles a city in the near future. They haven´t touched Silvermoon in 14 years. With the new start zone, I don´t see them going back and redoing much. I don´t think they care.


I DO want to say that I really appreciate your enthusiasm for Night Elves, takes me back to better times. But I wouldn´t expect much from Blizzard.

[ravenmoon]

You have to anyway because of the humans from Gilneas.

Worgen/Night Elf/Gilnean Human are a strong unit as it was these who fought during the Battle for Darkshore.

Yes, that would be the opportunity wouldn't it, but you also get the feeling Dalaran humans would be very interested in connecting with the Highborne mages, and Stormwind's elite SI:7 could be seen to send all their scout, archer /ranger units for training there, also the night elves train them in forest warfare and guerrilla tactics even though they show that sort of thing quite poorly in game for them so far.

Gilneans would have a section with homes, but Kirin'tor would just be seen in the mage's academy, and stormwind si:7 soldiers would just be seen in the Sentinels building

I mean, with all these different factors to consider, might it be better if the capital city stuck to those more Druidic, Priest-like and Sentinel assets that were very prevelant in Darnassus, along with the Worgen/Gilnean Human section, but then have Eldre'Thalas restored and this is where the majority of the Shen'dralar/Highborne/Moon Guard lore takes place, along with a bit of Ren'dorei and High Elf lore as well?

In many respect Eldre'thalas would make a better traditional night elf city - the arcane portions tend to largely exist in cities rather than remote locations in forests, although that is also possible if a mage and his students build an astrology tower or palace like academy out there.

But no reason why siilar can't make up a Hyjal city.

The trees there can have Night elf homes like that image of Malfurion and Tyrande looking at Nordrassil directly, and off course your beautfiul night elf buildings

Eldre'Thalas wouldn't be the capital, but it would show more of the Night Elven Mages and what they can do, rather than being in a city with lots of stuff going on already?

Yeh that is also an option.. Hyjal rather small and spiritual as a city , and Eldre'thalas the one used for most regular city things, could be a means of giving the night elves both types.. they get their Pre-sundering city through a revamped remodelled Eldre'thalas and a Tel'anor styled type smaller town/city with a temple and tree home.

but the view and setting at the top with the Well of Etenrity and Nordrassil coudl make for a breath taking city if designed properly