How to rebuild the Horde.

[username993720]

Meanwhile, the Forsaken are in a weird place. Just have them work w/ other Horde races to de-vilify them. But it's important to keep them from being too humanized. It risks diluting their Horde association. Making most of the Forsaken human kept things simple, but too many Calias/Derecks makes it hard to justify pure Horde allegiances under Anduin's Alliance.

Or just separate them from the Horde to their own faction.
How many times do they need to apologize for their actions? the Wrathgate, BfA...

Forsaken, sadly, are in a weird place anyway. Especially since it's been confirmed (through books) that without Sylvanas' leading them, most Forsaken revert to their humanity really easily and quite quickly.

Ewww... where is it said?
It totally butchers the Forsaken identity.

Yeah and that's an issue. While it makes sense, without their sycophancy for Sylvanas there is little that ties them to a specific faction.
1) Making their identity Sylvanas meant they had little personality outside of her and being evil.
2) The second you take the evil and Sylvanas away, they're just gothic dead humans of past/current Alliance capitals.
3) The only reason they had to avoid the Alliance was mutual hatred/distrust. But now some are more than willing to look past things for the sake of family.
4) The fact that most Forsaken are human means most of those accepting families are in the Alliance. This can divide and challenge loyaltyes.
5) They don't have particularly strong relations w/ any Horde race, like pre-Dal Purge BEs.

In the past, Alonsus Faol was the exception.
Now, he is the rule.
What good are Forsaken if they're not evil?

There is one more issue.
No renegades and no Sylvanas. Why are the elves in the Horde again?

Exactly.
Nothing connects the Blood elves to the Horde other than their former affiliation with Sylvanas (and fel influence, like the Orcs, which have overcome).
Saying the Blood elves are an unwanted and hunted race would be weird.

[Rozz]

snip

Tbh I'm of the opinion that Forsaken shouldn't even exist in the numbers they do, but I try to put that aside for the sake of discussion lol

If it is in Broswandi's book, well, it is too late for that idae to arrive.

But if that's where the idea goes. But the point is, right now he has no real reason to be in the Horde.
I mean, how long have you been in the Horde for 10 years? And still not something I want to be a part of?

You're right and that's the thing.

[username993720]

Tbh I'm of the opinion that Forsaken shouldn't even exist in the numbers they do, but I try to put that aside for the sake of discussion lol

How many are there?

[Rozz]

How many are there?

Oh I don't know exactly, I just meant that I don't think it's ethical that they repopulate. Besides the dubious means by which they've risen since Cata, it's wild to think of them conceptionally. They're predominantly unhappy in their existence and are always deteriorating in some manner. It's also just...gross? They have a poor quality of 'life' and are driven by some mix of hatred, pain, and sorrow. Unless requested by an individual or bestowed in higher quality (Calia, Dereck, Dark Rangers) I'm surprised raising additional Forsaken isn't outright banned in lore (even by other Forsaken).

Horde leaders forbade their own people being risen (and Alliance took great offense to their troops being used), so w/ the armistice I'd prefer if the Forsaken took the L and accepted the world is ready to move past zombie people. I do pity them. They need a place to exist but it's not a suffering that's worth sharing or prolonging w/ anyone else.

They're fun to play.

[username993720]

Oh I don't know exactly, I just meant that I don't think it's ethical that they repopulate. Besides the dubious means by which they've risen since Cata, it's wild to think of them conceptionally. They're predominantly unhappy in their existence and are always deteriorating in some manner. It's also just...gross? They have a poor quality of 'life' and are driven by some mix of hatred, pain, and sorrow. Unless requested by an individual or bestowed in higher quality (Calia, Dereck, Dark Rangers) I'm surprised raising additional Forsaken isn't outright banned in lore (even by other Forsaken).

Horde leaders forbade their own people being risen (and Alliance took great offense to their troops being used), so w/ the armistice I'd prefer if the Forsaken took the L and accepted the world is ready to move past zombie people. I do pity them. They need a place to exist but it's not a suffering that's worth sharing or prolonging w/ anyone else.

They're fun to play.

I'll just put it here, because it love it :


Are you suggesting getting rid of the Forsaken?

[Rozz]

I'll just put it here, because it love it :
> memories <

Are you suggesting getting rid of the Forsaken?

Now if I were honest? Yes, but not immediately. If over time their numbers dwindled to the point they just got absorbed into the tech/alchemy side of the Horde and faded into obscurity, that'd be the best outcome. None of them deserve to be put to death for existing against their will, but prolonging Azeroth's collective trauma is unnecessary. It feels like a plot line that'll never end because they're a playable race, despite not fitting well within the world anymore.

But that's just my unpopular opinion :P

[Soon-TM]

the official forums' infestation of night elf threads bitching every waking hour about Teldrassil.

I can confirm that the usual antics from folks like @Grazrug, being what they are, they at least bring a welcome reprieve from the omnipresent MUH TULDRIZUL spam you see in e.g. the official boards (and in these ones as well, albeit not that bad).

Also, I'm eagerly waiting for the Alliance to get the same Character Development™ the Horde has been getting since MoP. Because, you know, Horde Bias.

[Feanoro]

I can confirm that the usual antics from folks like @Grazrug, being what they are, they at least bring a welcome reprieve from the omnipresent MUH TULDRIZUL spam you see in e.g. the official boards (and in these ones as well, albeit not that bad).

How dare Alliance players expect to be relevant and not constantly losers for the Horde's benefit?

Also, I'm eagerly waiting for the Alliance to get the same Character Development™ the Horde has been getting since MoP. Because, you know, Horde Bias.

Sure, just as soon as the Horde is irrelevant except as an Alliance plot device, led by Baine, reduced to Cows and Pals, and its victories are throwaway lines in the latest book. We'll gladly feed you most of the human cast. Because, you know, Alliance Bias.

[geco]

Or just separate them from the Horde to their own faction.
How many times do they need to apologize for their actions? the Wrathgate, BfA...

They never apologized for BFA.
Or rather. Thrall is apologetic and believes that a few words will solve everything.
But back only Thrall apologized. (already, he's no longer warchief so he dont speaks for the Horde).

The point is that every time the Horde is about to leave their mistakes behind, the writers come and throw a new stone on them. So the question is not "how much do I have to apologize" (which incidentally does not do any good). But how many times are the writers going to force them to make the same mistake again.

How dare Alliance players expect to be relevant and not constantly losers for the Horde's benefit?

How dare WoW players ...

[Le Conceptuel]

I can confirm that the usual antics from folks like @Grazrug, being what they are, they at least bring a welcome reprieve from the omnipresent MUH TULDRIZUL spam you see in e.g. the official boards (and in these ones as well, albeit not that bad).

Also, I'm eagerly waiting for the Alliance to get the same Character Development™ the Horde has been getting since MoP. Because, you know, Horde Bias.

Honestly, I would like that. I think it would be helpful for the Alliance plotline to just allow us to finally have some conflict for once.

[username993720]

Now if I were honest? Yes, but not immediately. If over time their numbers dwindled to the point they just got absorbed into the tech/alchemy side of the Horde and faded into obscurity, that'd be the best outcome. None of them deserve to be put to death for existing against their will, but prolonging Azeroth's collective trauma is unnecessary. It feels like a plot line that'll never end because they're a playable race, despite not fitting well within the world anymore.

But that's just my unpopular opinion :P

That's getting rid of an entire playable race.
I think it's extreme. That's like getting rid of a part of the game's identity.

They never apologized for BFA.
Or rather. Thrall is apologetic and believes that a few words will solve everything.
But back only Thrall apologized. (already, he's no longer warchief so he dont speaks for the Horde).

The point is that every time the Horde is about to leave their mistakes behind, the writers come and throw a new stone on them. So the question is not "how much do I have to apologize" (which incidentally does not do any good). But how many times are the writers going to force them to make the same mistake again.

But, that's who they are. I expected nothing else from the Forsaken and Sylvanas.

[Syegfryed]

I must have missed those having everything of theirs go to the Alliance, or them being punching bags for the Alliance since Cata.

of course you missed, too much bias cloud people judgment

Like, stop, a bit and think, Alliance literally have a warchief now and horde don't, you can't get more of "go to the other faction" in this aspect friend.

Taurens and orcs were punching bag from the alliance since vanilla, what the fucka re you talking about, Alliance streamrolled the barrens kicking the tauren in the nuts and stealing their land.

ORcs get killed by alliance every single time, there is no instance of alliance killing horde that does not involve killing orcs, it does not even need to be from the horde, they keep dying left and right. There is no more orc characters left to die, you get Thrall, Eitrigg, and apparently Draka now, rofl.

Trolls don't even appear to be a punch bag,.

Because most Horde players are Blood Elves.

pointless to what i said

I suggest you bitch about Voljin's death to all the Horde fans who raged about him being warchief. Complaints about only orcs should lead the Horde were endless, and how he had no personality. Therefore, they gave the spot to the undead waifu who had an established character, because that was easier than developing Voljin and it would sell to all the Horde's necrophiles.

Humm ah yes, what a nice logic, "we didn't want vol'jin as leader, for X reasons, let put sylvanus as leader, even when she is worse in every single way. makes a lot fo sense.

So, in return, if people are bitching about night elves, rejoice cause there is humans there.

Ps: nothiung that you said make any sense here and does not "refute" the argumment, just because some people didn't like vol'jin it make no sense to killh im off and put someone worse

Otherwise, Horde fans might say "why the hell would I level a different troll model?". Shitty treatment, absolutely. Still not seeing trolls or their culture going Alliance, or trolls being slapped around and shown to be pathetic. Quite the opposite, with them gaining their ancestral lands back.

Night elf culture enver went to horde, don't know the heck you are talking about, "nightborne" is not "night elf" as they ahve gigantic difference, But hey, lets fucking forget void elves stealing all blood elf model, skin color, and all options and people demanding MORE, what ajoke.

Plus, yes, trolls were show to be pathetic, compltly absence in the expansion zandalari appear, not having a racial leader, and so on, what relcaiming their ancestral lands? it took until cataclysm for trolls to get the dumpster of echo isles because one guy, further showin how they are pathetic

In Cata, they were slaughtered by the Horde and their leaders went to Thrall's wedding. In Legion, you went to their ancestral heartlands and the Horde took them over.

And they slaughter horde as well to the point of deus ex machina winning ashenvale battle with Varian buffed by a old god, they were literally attacking orgrimmar's gates in ashara being a major threat, rofl, seems like you didn't played much. Yeah thrall wedding, that cringe thing is somehow horde bias i guess lol.

For the compelte absence of horde in Legion while alliance doing anything and night elves being a big part of it, WHILE HORDE PLAYERS LITERALLY HAVING TO HELP THE ALLIANCE LEADERS, you just handwave to say "they got land in the end"?

are you serious? taurens didn't even show up in highmountain and they removed Baine due to alliance cry.

Or showing it and then giving all that to the Horde? Oh wait, that happened.

it didn't, but of course you will count nightborne as such, as far i know both elves help then and night elves didn't call dibs on then.

And funny enough, do you want to blame anyone on nightborne going horde? blame your players asking for high elf, they ahd to come up witht his bullshit model cross faction to shut people up, no one in horde asked or want the shitty nightborne with worse mdoels than the npcs

Troll fans need to have a word with the orc fans who screamed on and on about #NotMyWarchief.

Ah yes, cause sylvanas is def an orc, their prayers were answered

besides, wanting their faction to keep their fantasy is nothing wrong, alliance stil is leaded by a human, so the horde should be leaded by an orc, but sure, fuck the orcs even mroe making then lose status in their own faction and not rule not even their own city, Bu ho, night elves get the worse treatment ever.

Pot, meet kettle.

Right, you jsut dodge everything , not even funny

They're only relevant when the Horde needs victims.

Lose a racial leader before you talk.

[Rozz]

That's getting rid of an entire playable race.
I think it's extreme. That's like getting rid of a part of the game's identity.

Well, yes. Lore wise, the scourge and Forsaken are but an old plotline they never truly settled because of reasons. In-game, they're part of the Horde's identity because of factions. There are some people who think that the Forsaken should've never been a playable race to begin with, but I'm not as mean :P

[geco]

But, that's who they are. I expected nothing else from the Forsaken and Sylvanas.

Yes but no race of apology. Which makes each of the other races have their thorn broken by lore and now they look fake.

[username993720]

Well, yes. Lore wise, the scourge and Forsaken are but an old plotline they never truly settled because of reasons. In-game, they're part of the Horde's identity because of factions. There are some people who think that the Forsaken should've never been a playable race to begin with, but I'm not as mean :P

Wha...? why? they are definitely an integral race in the game.

Yes but no race of apology. Which makes each of the other races have their thorn broken by lore and now they look fake.

Could you rephrase? i didn't quite get it...

[Rozz]

Wha...? why? they are definitely an integral race in the game.

They think that the Forsaken became too blatantly evil for even the Horde to tolerate. Some also felt the Tauren going out of their way to help them while overlooking blatant issues was ooc. I personally don't care about their introduction, but 100yrs into Azeroth's future I want those zombies gone or elevated into a higher quality of existence.

Sylvanas did promise them something more, but idk what she had in mind at this point.

[username993720]

They think that the Forsaken became too blatantly evil for even the Horde to tolerate. Some also felt the Tauren going out of their way to help them while overlooking blatant issues was ooc. I personally don't care about their introduction, but 100yrs into Azeroth's future I want those zombies gone or elevated into a higher quality of existence.

Sylvanas did promise them something more, but idk what she had in mind at this point.

Too evil for the Horde? well... that can be disputed.
If so, they can separate to their own faction - the Scourge.
Why do they have to evolve? do any of the other races need to do so, as well? I don't see what's so wrong about them. They are filling their role as undeads.

[Rozz]

Too evil for the Horde? well... that can be disputed.
If so, they can separate to their own faction - the Scourge.
Why do they have to evolve? do any of the other races need to do so, as well? I don't see what's so wrong about them. They are filling their role as undeads.

For their own sake. Most of the Forsaken are falling apart and without a war, they won't be able to repair themselves (since they apparently re-purpose parts rather than "heal" damaged ones). It takes a lot of power to make high-quality Forsaken (that they no longer have access to since Sylvanas is gone) and trying to upgrade a current Forsaken to a Nathanos-level body requires Nathanos level preparation. That's why only Sylvanas' elite look so good.

Calia's existence hints at a potential evolution by utilizing other cosmic magic, but I'd like something that can help them without disrupting their themes too much.

[username993720]

For their own sake. Most of the Forsaken are falling apart and without a war, they won't be able to repair themselves (since they apparently re-purpose parts rather than "heal" damaged ones). It takes a lot of power to make high-quality Forsaken (that they no longer have access to since Sylvanas is gone) and trying to upgrade a current Forsaken to a Nathanos-level body requires Nathanos level preparation. That's why only Sylvanas' elite look so good.

Calia's existence hints at a potential evolution by utilizing other cosmic magic, but I'd like something that can help them without disrupting their themes too much.

Doesn't dark magic fix them? like Cult of the Forgotten Shadows? Death Knights and Necromancers? maybe even fel?

I don't think time is really a concern for Blizzard, regarding copses.

[Rozz]

Doesn't dark magic fix them? like Cult of the Forgotten Shadows? Death Knights and Necromancers? maybe even fel?

I don't think time is really a concern for Blizzard, regarding copses.

Unless they joined the Death Knights or Cult, no. The Forsaken in the last few books have needed the fresh corpses of Alliance soldiers w/ basic necromancy. The fancy stuff was reserved for those who were "worth it". A few users here made note of the sudden fragility of the base population. This kinda started off in Cata when Sylvanas made a show of needing to start her own reanimation process w/ the Valkyr bc their numbers were dropping and commentary in BfA about using Alliance bodies.

For the game, it's flavor text at most. In lore, their deterioration and dropping numbers were the initial motive/justification for their actions.