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  1. #141
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    in short: every day a new 13-18 year old kid is born, rotated 2-3 months through wow, have lots of stuff to see and play, have a casual carot on a stick (by gear, rep, renown, soulbinds, maw, venaari, etc), pay a bit money and leaves. considering you do not huge investments in the game as Blizzard, bc the „systems“ (like Cov or Azerite) are cheap, bc its just simple UIs and DB entries (in contrast to expensive world sound gfx design and game engine logic code) enables you the mantra „invest as least as possible, do good marketing and rotate ppls through it“. means they invest not much in wow, but have i.e 4 million ppl paying 3x13 euros (sub) + 39 euros (xpac) + 7 euros (token profit) means: 85 bugs of 4 mio ppls, steadily rotating. this is how it works today.
    There's an awful lot of sentiment implying that if one does not subscribe 12 months a year the game is somehow failing. That's not true of course. Blizzard understands QUITE well what percentage of accounts stays for anywhere from one to twelve months a year for the term of the expansion. The bean counters understand the revenue from that and the budget going forward for the game reflects that. Everyone at Blizzard HQ is OK with this as long as there are no unpleasant surprises (see: Cataclysm). They would like more of course but are realists that the notion that people religiously play one and only one game is ridiculous. That's why it's always been super simple to leave and return.

    Thanks for the nod. We agree about a lot lately. I'll have to see about that .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is dumb. So art music story are all not content you could literally log into a silent blank environment with no context and just mash buttons and thats content but all the other stuff that actually constitutes content including reward doesn't count. If content isn't defined by the shit that actually makes content then its just verbal masturbation and utterly meaningless. hell by that logic this forum is fucking content as well
    I tend to agree that content and reward are meshed tightly together. They can appear separate but neither can survive very well without the other in the evolved meta that is World of Warcraft. The notion that Blizzard developers would entertain the idea that "our content should be enjoyed for what it is without respect to how it rewards completion" is nonsense. This would be suicide for the game. I'm fairly sure that it's a fairly easy case to make that practically everything you see, experience, interact with, or receive after logging on to the game is content of one kind or another.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-06-24 at 08:28 AM.
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  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Geisl View Post
    In the way that Blizzard has designed WoW and molded its playerbase, rewards are absolutely content. Majority of WoW Players have been conditioned to do content if it gives compelling rewards, and Blizzard has talked about this numerous times. It's why they up rewards for things like Islands in BFA to give most AP (which they had to increase as well over the course of the expac for them to continue be compelling). It's why they talk about putting more rewards into Torghast 'to give people a reason to do it'.

    For WoW, if a content doesn't give a compelling enough reward, vast majority of players won't do it and Blizzard themselves have carried that design choice forward too and talk about it often.
    Its fine if you play WoW and like the rewards, everyone should play for their own reasons but that doesn't change that if your unwilling to do content without reward that you, apparently, do not enjoy that content for its own sake or value it less then doing something else.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  3. #143
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    This forum is content of the site. You interact and engage with it. The post count and the wacky titles for post counts are the rewards if that helps you understand it.

    In wow content is secondary to you over a sense of accomplishment via rewards.
    Yea thats still bullshut because what your suggesting is I could log on to a blank space and simple type and thats content! The news, the art, the moderation all of it doesn't count as content because content is only what you do evidently. Its not the actual stuff they make (which for the record it is). One wonders why they even fuckign bother with all that crap. Because if all thats content is mashing buttons then they could just cut out everything and have your keyboard light up like Simon says. Content !

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    There's an awful lot of sentiment implying that if one does not subscribe 12 months a year the game is somehow failing. That's not true of course. Blizzard understands QUITE well what percentage of accounts stays for anywhere from one to twelve months a year for the term of the expansion. The bean counters understand the revenue from that and the budget going forward for the game reflects that. Everyone at Blizzard HQ is OK with this as long as there are no unpleasant surprises (see: Cataclysm). They would like more of course but are realists that the notion that people religiously play one and only one game is ridiculous. That's why it's always been super simple to leave and return.

    Thanks for the nod. We agree about a lot lately. I'll have to see about that .

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    I tend to agree that content and reward are meshed tightly together. They can appear separate but neither can survive very well without the other in the evolved meta that is World of Warcraft. The notion that Blizzard developers would entertain the idea that "our content should be enjoyed for what it is without respect to how it rewards completion" is nonsense. This would be suicide for the game. I'm fairly sure that it's a fairly easy case to make that practically everything you see, experience, interact with, or receive after logging on to the game is content of one kind or another.
    Evidently its not a fairly easy case because we have people arguing here that the things the developers put into the game don't fuckibg count as content, the only thing that counts is slamming your keyboard repeatedly. And I would imagine that slamming your keyboard repeatedly in a raid setting is is what really. Of course you'd have to acknowledge raidsare content at that point and those are made of art and sounds and.. wait for it... rewards!!!
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea thats still bullshut because what your suggesting is I could log on to a blank space and simple type and thats content! The news, the art, the moderation all of it doesn't count as content because content is only what you do evidently. Its not the actual stuff they make (which for the record it is). One wonders why they even fuckign bother with all that crap. Because if all thats content is mashing buttons then they could just cut out everything and have your keyboard light up like Simon says. Content !

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    Evidently its not a fairly easy case because we have people arguing here that the things the developers put into the game don't fuckibg count as content, the only thing that counts is slamming your keyboard repeatedly. And I would imagine that slamming your keyboard repeatedly in a raid setting is is what really. Of course you'd have to acknowledge raidsare content at that point and those are made of art and sounds and.. wait for it... rewards!!!
    I think you confused me with another poster. What I am saying is you play for the reward not the experience and I find that a bizzare way to approach gaming in general. I wouldn't mind myself but you seem extremely vocal about dragging people who do enjoy the game's content into your dopamine gauntlet.

    I just can't wrap my head around the idea of gaming for what rewards or achievements the game gave out rather then the experience.

    I've modded games like the bunding of isaac for full unlocks because I find the game more fun to play with full powers.

    I just don't really understand why you don't search out a game that gives you content you enjoy along with the rewards.

  5. #145
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I wouldn't mind myself but you seem extremely vocal about dragging people who do enjoy the game's content into your dopamine gauntlet.
    s.
    Oh no no no you don't have to do anything. The expectation that the rest of the game be balanced around you not wanting to participate in anything else is the real problem. By all means skip world questing just don't expect or demand world quests be neutered of any significant reward so you don't feel ""forced". And then have the fucking balls to shame people because they seem to only care about rewards while the mythic raid scene gets literally the best gear in the game. Its so easy to be blase about other people's shit.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #146
    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    Im not really enjoying Shadowlands at all. I always enjoyed some things in past expansions (except Warlords) but nothing in SL is really enjoyable. Im finding it hard to get motivated to even log on.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    There's an awful lot of sentiment implying that if one does not subscribe 12 months a year the game is somehow failing. That's not true of course. Blizzard understands QUITE well what percentage of accounts stays for anywhere from one to twelve months a year for the term of the expansion. The bean counters understand the revenue from that and the budget going forward for the game reflects that. Everyone at Blizzard HQ is OK with this as long as there are no unpleasant surprises (see: Cataclysm). They would like more of course but are realists that the notion that people religiously play one and only one game is ridiculous. That's why it's always been super simple to leave and return.

    Thanks for the nod. We agree about a lot lately. I'll have to see about that .

    - - - Updated - - -



    I tend to agree that content and reward are meshed tightly together. They can appear separate but neither can survive very well without the other in the evolved meta that is World of Warcraft. The notion that Blizzard developers would entertain the idea that "our content should be enjoyed for what it is without respect to how it rewards completion" is nonsense. This would be suicide for the game. I'm fairly sure that it's a fairly easy case to make that practically everything you see, experience, interact with, or receive after logging on to the game is content of one kind or another.
    yes, agree 100%.

    and just as additional note: its the normal way it goes. as you said, Blizzard has the EXACT data, and even when its very dificult with such a broad audience wow has (wow has in reality no target audience, but caters to everyone), they simply tailor the game to their needs. in the end its their main goal to make max profit (regardless how and what ppl think about it). and these days you dont make most profit by huge longterm investment in a stable solid longterm customer base. its all about quarter numbers and the world is fast these days. Blizzard, as well as the whole industry, just adapted to that. and, profit wise, they do very well.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Content > reward for my part. If the content isnt fun, then I dont care if I miss out on the reward.

    However if the content is fun, the reward is more important. I dont know if its some psychological thing, but thats how it feels like.
    I can sympathise with this PoV. For example, some of the covenants recolours are rad, but the content you need to do it is so freaking annoying and repetitive (if you want to get the set in a timely manner, that is), that I simply didn't bother at all with it.

    For example, I loved M+ in Legion and in BfA (it was actually the one saving grace of the latter imo), even with all the paperwork required to partake in it outside of my guild. But the changes to M+ in SL made me instantly uninterested in it, since I don't like running an entire dungeon and have nothing to show for it, aside from a handful of anima. And the changes introduced in 9.0.5 were too little, too late as far as I'm concerned.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Oh no no no you don't have to do anything. The expectation that the rest of the game be balanced around you not wanting to participate in anything else is the real problem. By all means skip world questing just don't expect or demand world quests be neutered of any significant reward so you don't feel ""forced". And then have the fucking balls to shame people because they seem to only care about rewards while the mythic raid scene gets literally the best gear in the game. Its so easy to be blase about other people's shit.
    Why do world quests an activity so toothless they can be mass aoed down need to effect content played so differently to them as to be an entirely different game?

    Can I get an answer more compelling then you only play for rewards and feel chafed when you are not given them?

  10. #150
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Why do world quests an activity so toothless they can be mass aoed down need to effect content played so differently to them as to be an entirely different game?

    Can I get an answer more compelling then you only play for rewards and feel chafed when you are not given them?
    Why would content only designed for an incredible small portion of the population have such a substantial impact on the entire rest of the game, so much so that literally every other facet of the game must be balance around it?

    can you give an answer more compelling than I just want to raid log and fuck everybody else?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Why would content only designed for an incredible small portion of the population have such a substantial impact on the entire rest of the game, so much so that literally every other facet of the game must be balance around it?

    can you give an answer more compelling than I just want to raid log and fuck everybody else?
    The rabbits you kill at level 1 in final fantasy don't really relate to the last boss either.

    Your counter point is so utterly weak it actual defeats itself with me needing to gently tap it over.

    You want rewards and only rewards. Those who enjoy the content of the game are always going to chafe against those wanting a fulfillment simulator.

  12. #152
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    The rabbits you kill at level 1 in final fantasy don't really relate to the last boss either.

    Your counter point is so utterly weak it actual defeats itself with me needing to gently tap it over.

    You want rewards and only rewards. Those who enjoy the content of the game are always going to chafe against those wanting a fulfillment simulator.
    Thats funny since the game literally trains players to chase reward as content from lvl1. Its bizarre that you should then expect people to be satisfied with less at max level so you don't feel put out. Then again you define content as literally only pushing buttons and nothing else put into the game so realistically your argument is fairly weak. I only had to "gently tap it over" lol
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Thats funny since the game literally trains players to chase reward as content from lvl1. Its bizarre that you should then expect people to be satisfied with less at max level so you don't feel put out. Then again you define content as literally only pushing buttons and nothing else put into the game so realistically your argument is fairly weak. I only had to "gently tap it over" lol
    I just think you would be happier playing a game you enjoyed rather then looking for a game telling you to mow the lawn the allowence money.

  14. #154
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I just think you would be happier playing a game you enjoyed rather then looking for a game telling you to mow the lawn the allowence money.
    You just can't possible fathom that someone might enjoy a relatively easy and relaxed grind to progressing their characters. Like you're just so inured by hardcore content at the bleeding edge that everything else must be a chore and how could anyone possible enjoy it. Even when you consider the fact that the entire experience up to max level is just that easy and relaxed. It must be very lonely and isolating to live in such a bubble.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #155
    Friends > Content > Reward.

    I keep playing because I get to play and raid with the same people I've been playing with since TBC. I'm willing to suffer through shitty content due to that, rewards are distant 3rd for me. If I don't bis its not a big deal for me.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You just can't possible fathom that someone might enjoy a relatively easy and relaxed grind to progressing their characters. Like you're just so inured by hardcore content at the bleeding edge that everything else must be a chore and how could anyone possible enjoy it. Even when you consider the fact that the entire experience up to max level is just that easy and relaxed. It must be very lonely and isolating to live in such a bubble.
    You enjoy filling a bar to get a prize... I understand the concept of a skinner box it's just odd to see people savoring the box more then the game.

  17. #157
    I absolutely loved Wow in the past. I wish old developers of Wow would start a new company and make a Wow classic like MMORPG...

  18. #158
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    You enjoy filling a bar to get a prize... I understand the concept of a skinner box it's just odd to see people savoring the box more then the game.
    From the perspective of the mouse their is no difference. The real oddity here is that you seem think that everything that goes into the game including rewards isn't actually the game.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #159
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    You enjoy filling a bar to get a prize... I understand the concept of a skinner box it's just odd to see people savoring the box more then the game.
    One of the underlying principles of the design has always been to replicate a Skinner Box. Even when the game was supposedly 'good.' Much like the reward/content discussion the game design and the principles of a Skinner Box are so intertwined it's difficult—and pointless—to try and determine where one stops and the other starts.

    To your first point: Is filling a bar to get a prize really any different than venturing out to kill eight of "X" and bring back to turn in six of "Y"? That's been the main principle of dailies from the beginning. The whole "Oh, it's filling a bar" business is a lame attempt at distracting from the plain fact that many daily quest requirements are essentially the same thing as filling a bar; just without the bar.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    One of the underlying principles of the design has always been to replicate a Skinner Box. Even when the game was supposedly 'good.' Much like the reward/content discussion the game design and the principles of a Skinner Box are so intertwined it's difficult—and pointless—to try and determine where one stops and the other starts.

    To your first point: Is filling a bar to get a prize really any different than venturing out to kill eight of "X" and bring back to turn in six of "Y"? That's been the main principle of dailies from the beginning. The whole "Oh, it's filling a bar" business is a lame attempt at distracting from the plain fact that many daily quest requirements are essentially the same thing as filling a bar; just without the bar.
    I would say yes as its moved from doing the content that has you interact and group up with players (aka dungeons and raids) to a utterly mindless anti social grindy activity commonly seen in Korean mmos.

    I won't argue wow was every some super hard dark souls style game especially outside of mythic but it at least required some extent of social interaction.

    The only time the empty skinner box content of world quests or other filler systems ever had players interacting was via an automated addon and they broke that... not because they thought it cheapened the experience of the mindless content but because it wasn't actun effectly as a time gate with it...

    Take glorious's feedback. He wants others to be made to grind to give himself a weird sense of fulfillment it's to the point I honestly don't believe he enjoys the game hes playing he simply craves feeling like he accomplished something.

    If we must design the game around people who don't enjoy it why allow then to infect the rest of it? Give them some kind if endlessly scaling power that only works in open world content with WM off. Hell go hog wild make them grow 80 feet tall with auto attacks that rend fissures into the ground and one shot mobs.

    Simply keep them quarantined and cut off from the rest of the game.

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