What races should work together or cooperate more ?

[Feanoro]

Nor from fanatics of the Alliance who believe that the extermination of the Horde is the only way to Peace.

Yes, that springs from dark arts called "logic" and "pattern recognition". If the story was allowed to play out with the logical consequences, the Horde would have been forcibly disbanded a long time ago. There's always some half-assed excuse and the Horde walks away from the massacre du jour with a mumbled apology.

So stop blaming the fans for what the writers decide.

Just as soon as I don't see evidence of Blizz trying to cater to various Horde groups, I'll be glad to do so. I suggest you do a LOT more reading here and other fan sites and see just how limited your circle is.

@Beloren I like the idea, but Blizz views pandas as a disaster and therefore assumes another divided race would fail just as badly.

Slight difference on Lightforged, I've understood it as "the orcs are small potatoes, we have bigger problems" rather than simply forgiving them.

[Beloren]

Slight difference on Lightforged, I've understood it as "the orcs are small potatoes, we have bigger problems" rather than simply forgiving them.

Wait, didn't the Lightforged separate from the draenei before they discovered and settled on Draenor? They wouldn't know the orcs would they, so would have no sting, and attribute their actions to Legion corruption , especially since Velen forgave them and the orcs were not anti-draenei before Kil'jaeden forced them into that course of action.

it's plausible.

[Feanoro]

Wait, didn't the Lightforged separate from the draenei before they discovered and settled on Draenor? They wouldn't know the orcs would they, so would have no sting, and attribute their actions to Legion corruption , especially since Velen forgave them and the orcs were not anti-draenei before Kil'jaeden forced them into that course of action.

it's plausible.

I may have been misinformed then. Between them (and allied races in general) seeming like a cheap Hail Mary to retain player interest and the agony of "TPAARTOS! TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS!TPAARTOS! TPAARTOS!" (we get it, you like your name, now stfu) in the campaign, I haven't invested much time in learning about them.

[Varx]

LFD-Velves

Forsaken - Tauren

Zanda - Pandaren

cross faction

LFD - Mag'har

Nelves - NB

[geco]

Just as soon as I don't see evidence of Blizz trying to cater to various Horde groups, I'll be glad to do so. I suggest you do a LOT more reading here and other fan sites and see just how limited your circle is.

If you should read them when Teldrazzil passed you know when the Horde Players still paid the subscription.
Go to the official forum and more than the generic heter you will see many of the Horde against Teldrazzil. That then there you have the Fan Kaldorei that no one can hold out is something else.

You should also remember the event without "honor without shoulder pads". Which obviously blizzard ignored and forced those players to follow Sylvanas anyway.

Or that after that they had to get the expansion and go out to say that "the heart of the Horde still had a future" and all those things. Because Horde players weren't interested in History.

You can also read Chris Metzen's twitter that they stop fucking Golden because of what he wrote with Sylvanas. There you are, how happy the Horde players were with the burning of Teldrazzil.

You should also read all the players who don't want to be anything other than the good saints and follow the holy Anduin out there and that if the alliance breaks a stick they start to cry. All those who say that Tyrande is crazy to seek revenge and not help Anduin.

PS: I leave you this last idae. If, according to you, half of the players (The Horde) are delighted with the BFA plot because they want to conquer.
What happened here?
https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/w...le-for-azeroth

[Ardenaso]

It's like those who say "it's the W3 Fans' fault for not giving money to Blizzard and so Reforged sucks."

The Warcraft 3 purists prevented Blizzard from making a Reforged campaign toggle with retconned updated lore

[geco]

The Warcraft 3 purists prevented Blizzard from making a Reforged campaign toggle with retconned updated lore

and that's why they took from us:
personalized campaign.
the opacity of reconnecting.
the reconnection system that works.
The original dubbing in all languages other than English.
And they sensed a lot of things.

Because the purists did not want changes they removed all those.

Spoiler: They still made changes.

[Syegfryed]

The Warcraft 3 purists prevented Blizzard from making a Reforged campaign toggle with retconned updated lore

what a ajoke, it would be amazing if they did that to remain true with the lore, or because fans didn't want then to shit on their own lore once more

But they did no change because they were lazy and the project was rushed. We didn't even got the cinematics they said it would be there.

Even the fucking mdoels were wrong, let alone the campaign and lore if they were to touch it.

[Feanoro]

@geco Go look for all the jokes about "Teldrassil barbecue party" (hell there's a guild named that), serving elves extra crispy, and so on. Go look for all the players who scream that Saurfang is a traitor, that the council are traitors, or Alliance puppets, or similar nonsense. You personally didn't like it? Your friends didn't? Many people didn't? That doesn't mean there's not a sizeable amount of Horde fans who did. The Evil Horde fans got to be conquerors, and then Blizz swung back the other way to please the Thrall's Horde fans as well as preserve the business model.

You want to claim all Horde players hated following Sylvanas? Bullshit. They implemented a loyalist questline for people screaming Saurfang was a traitor and gave a special ending to those players. You point out they made statements about the "heart of the Horde". Yeah, notice something about that? They burned down an Alliance city, canonically murder most of the Night Elves, and Blizzard makes a statement to the good Horde fans, NOT ONE WORD to Alliance fans that such an atrocity will be punished, not one word to Night Elf fans that everything will work out. We had Tyrande's little fit and absolutely nothing came of it. The only official statement is Darkshore was reclaimed. Nothing about Ashenvale. No punishment for the Horde. Nothing. You seriously want to tell me Blizz doesn't cater to the various types of Horde fans in game, because you didn't like the story?

Finally, nice link, I see a lot of reviews stating the game was buggy, not fun, filled with boring systems and chores. Based on that link and many others, the bulk of people who left during BfA did so because BfA was a bad expansion, not because they were unhappy with Sylvanas.

[geco]

@Feanoro
First:
Varock is a traitor since he doesn't cut off Sylvanas's head. The council are titres of the humans without personality. Because they are the ones who followed Sylvanas.
That is why I did the survey with the option that the majority want "neither of those two genocidal."

To the topic:
But you also have all those times the Alliance accused Horde players of Nazis.
All the times the Alliance players are nothing but monsters. That no Alliance characters die, they are even corrupted and uncorrupted like nothing else.

BFA is the entire History of the Horde losing in every fight it makes after Teldrazzil. All the effort of the Horde thrown away before superior Jaina. All the Pj of the Alliance gaining power more power because yes. Cinematics and patches moved around just to keep the Alliance Players happy.

We can say then that in Truth BFA is about satisfying the wish of the Alliance Players that the Horde are just monsters that must be killed and kicked their ass over and over again and as happened Teldrazzil does not have to feel guilt. Only so that the alliance pj win more and more Power ups and in the end they do not kill the Horde just because the mechanics prevent it.

By Loth. SW you have 4 zones, the two good zones, the zones with pj alliance, the one similar to the Kaldorei and the one similar to the Light. Where the leaders of the sonas are good and you have to help them
The bad and sad zones of the horde pjs who are out of place that don't even look like Horde zones. Where the leaders are bad or dead.


I mean, which of those 4 sieles will an Orc or a Tauren comfortably focus on? an orc full of undead and fel magic? A Tauren in the forest? They don't have a fucking meadow. Tell me a zones from all over SW that zones good with the classic Horde?

The whole story is a continuous message of "being a horde is wrong, you would have an alliance, you should praise Anduin" because in truth the message of the game is that you have to be an Alliance.


PS: We have a novel where Thrall the head of the Horde kneels before Tyrande apologizing pathetically and she tells him that she wants Sylvanas's head to start listening to him basically.
Thrall is going to kill Sylvanas in order to defeat Tyrande. The Horde literally works for the Alliance.
--------------
Or we can go for the simplest option and accept that the writers are simply useless and do not understand anything about WoW and are only writing generic fantasy.
Human main character.
Bad orcs, good humans.


-------------
@Syegfryed In the Reforged trash we agree.

[Ardenaso]

@geco @Syegfryed regarding the updated lore, thankfully there's the Re-Reforged campaign that aims to make a campaign based on what Blizzard could have done like in Blizzcon 2018; the Exodus of the Horde is done and the Scourge of Lordaeron is currently WIP

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...-reforged.774/
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...series.330873/
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...-horde.323114/
https://discord.gg/2VmhJrNPgh

and for custom campaigns I believe the Quenching Mod team is working for that if I'm not mistaken

on topic: for the Horde, not really a Horde race but I'd like to see some interaction between the Blackthorn Bandits who worked for Sylvanas to the Fogsail Pirates and then towards the Forsaken and Orcs;

also the arcane side of the Ogres were criminally neglected; I'd love to see another magical coven for the Horde that isn't the Sunreavers that consists of Orc, Ogre, Forsaken, Trolls, etc. where they experiment and pool together and experiment their knowledge on arcane, fel, voodoo, etc., supervised by the Blood Elves, Nightborne, San'layn and Dark Rangers

[Feanoro]

@geco

Yes, Horde fans have been called Nazis. Specifically the ones that cheer for genocide. Otherwise, you wrote an entire paragraph that says "I didn't play BfA". Alliance characters don't die while Horde ones do? Boo hoo, Horde don't keep losing entire cities and zones, while quest text calls you a loser. Horde gains zones and if Alliance gets them back, they're destroyed. Darkshore is a smoking ruin.

- Every cinematic was about the Horde.

- Horde got in game events about the story, like the famous "Alliance is winning". Yes, you had to play Horde to find out Alliance was doing anything. Alliance players weren't told ANYTHING like that.

- Alliance gets an advantage? Sorry, ships and armies are destroyed by Azshara.

- Horde loses over and over? The Alliance players NEVER know that. They're told the whole time they're losing and forced to use farmers as soldiers.

- Alliance has to work with Saurfang, the remorseful genocidal butcher, just to have a chance of winning. Imagine, forced to team up with the leader of a campaign that massacred your people.

- Alliance doesn't do anything to win, Saurfang does. Just like MoP, Alliance is just there for the ride.

The whole story is a continuous message of "being a horde is wrong, you would have an alliance, you should praise Anduin" because in truth the message of the game is that you have to be an Alliance.

The message isn't "being Horde is wrong", it's "being evil warmongers is wrong". If there were no fans of the Evil Horde, why the hell would they need to say that? Because there are Horde players who cheer atrocities, who demand war no one can win, who laugh at genocides, who say there's nothing wrong with torturing civilians.

Meanwhile the message to Alliance is "forgive genocide or you're bad too." If anything, the Thrall Horde fans and Alliance should be on the same side, demanding better stories from Blizzard. Instead, the Thrall Horde fans blame Alliance for stories that were made to please the Evil Horde fans.

The people who like Anduin are self-righteous little morons just like he is. They like him because he's Golden's mouthpiece for her politics, which they agree with.

PS: We have a novel where Thrall the head of the Horde kneels before Tyrande apologizing pathetically and she tells him that she wants Sylvanas's head to start listening to him basically.
Thrall is going to kill Sylvanas in order to defeat Tyrande. The Horde literally works for the Alliance.

The Horde committed genocide. You honestly think an apology is out of place here? You think promising to stop the evil dictator who led genocide is working for the Alliance? Do you realize what you're saying?

[geco]

The people who like Anduin are self-righteous little morons just like he is. They like him because he's Golden's mouthpiece for her politics, which they agree with.

Of course those are few.
But those of the warmongering Horde are in the majority.
It is not the writers fault it is the fault that there are Horde players are warmongers.

You still have the Horde funeral event that the Alliance Players were to sabotage.

mmm maybe the Zandalar thing is a wink.

This explains why Populism is in the majority.

-------

The Horde committed genocide. You honestly think an apology is out of place here? You think promising to stop the evil dictator who led genocide is working for the Alliance? Do you realize what you're saying?

PS: What Thrall did is completely out of line.
His mind is so empty is an insult to the dead.

But if for you all this Sylvanas stuff is suddenly bad and you are going to lose your most beloved pj to sell SW and BFA, it is because you listen to Sylvanas fans a lot.
I guess you think the Thrall thing is to get him to work for Tyrande.


------- @Ardenas thank you

[Syegfryed]

@geco Go look for all the jokes about "Teldrassil barbecue party" (hell there's a guild named that), serving elves extra crispy, and so on. Go look for all the players who scream that Saurfang is a traitor, that the council are traitors, or Alliance puppets, or similar nonsense. You personally didn't like it? Your friends didn't? Many people didn't? That doesn't mean there's not a sizeable amount of Horde fans who did. The Evil Horde fans got to be conquerors, and then Blizz swung back the other way to please the Thrall's Horde fans as well as preserve the business model..

this is just the ad populum fallacy as you make look like the loud minority is the majority.

the loud minority, on forums, that are not even more than what, 50 people at best.

- Every cinematic was about the Horde.

it wasn't, unless you want to argue that just because they show a horde race means = horde cinematic. even so, pretty sure there was jaina cinematics and with anduin in there.

besides, portraying bad is not something to praise

- Horde got in game events about the story, like the famous "Alliance is winning". Yes, you had to play Horde to find out Alliance was doing anything. Alliance players weren't told ANYTHING like that.

the problem here is far beyond the mentality of "bias", they simple assume everyone play both factions and watch every cinematic regardless.

- Alliance gets an advantage? Sorry, ships and armies are destroyed by Azshara.

not all of then? they still got advantage and stay on the top as always?

- Horde loses over and over? The Alliance players NEVER know that. They're told the whole time they're losing and forced to use farmers as soldiers.

saying they have to send farmers don't mean they are losing.

- Alliance has to work with Saurfang, the remorseful genocidal butcher, just to have a chance of winning. Imagine, forced to team up with the leader of a campaign that massacred your people.

ah, like forced to team up with Tyrande and malfurion in Legion? except you didn't have to obey him in any way shape of form?

- Alliance doesn't do anything to win, Saurfang does. Just like MoP, Alliance is just there for the ride.

And he fucking died and he loose one of the few orcs left.

Would you wish that it was tyrande challenging sylvanas and dying? i bet not.

The message isn't "being Horde is wrong", it's "being evil warmongers is wrong".

And that if you are horde you are evil warmonger, therefore being horde is wrong, you have no choice, there was no choice and you had to be forced to follow sylvanus the entire expansion, oooh, too bad alliance don't have this kind of bias. and focus


If there were no fans of the Evil Horde, why the hell would they need to say that? Because there are Horde players who cheer atrocities, who demand war no one can win, who laugh at genocides, who say there's nothing wrong with torturing civilians.

Meanwhile the message to Alliance is "forgive genocide or you're bad too."

And why they do that? because there are alliance fans who cheer for forgiveness and self-righteous actions

If anything, the Thrall Horde fans and Alliance should be on the same side, demanding better stories from Blizzard. Instead, the Thrall Horde fans blame Alliance for stories that were made to please the Evil Horde fans.

thats why yelling like an old man at the clouds about horde bias hold no ground, blizzard is fucking up the story entirely, complaining the horde side is greener(when it is not and in some points worse) is pointless.

- - - Updated - - -

@geco @Syegfryed regarding the updated lore, thankfully there's the Re-Reforged campaign that aims to make a campaign based on what Blizzard could have done like in Blizzcon 2018; the Exodus of the Horde is done and the Scourge of Lordaeron is currently WIP

i don't trust then doing something lore accurate without changing something or not being biased, if not even blizzard can, so i stay skeptical

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

I'm honnestly surprised that Goblins and Forsaken don't work together more in the story, Goblins' engineering and alchemical skills could produce devastating results if combined with Forsaken's own alchemical and biological weapons expertise and Goblins are one of if not the only race who'd be willing to let the Forsaken use their usual methods without thinking too much about it as long as they are paid.

[geco]

I'm honnestly surprised that Goblins and Forsaken don't work together more in the story, Goblins' engineering and alchemical skills could produce devastating results if combined with Forsaken's own alchemical and biological weapons expertise and Goblins are one of if not the only race who'd be willing to let the Forsaken use their usual methods without thinking too much about it as long as they are paid.

I think they only work together on dark coast? not?
Blizzard only sees what they have in common to destroy the environment?

[Nnyco]

Goblins and Gnomes tbh. The fact that they always had a huge connection but only worked together in like one patch of entire wow is just silly.

[username993720]

Natural fits would be:

1. Dwarves and Gnomes (love for technology).
2. Night Elves and Worgen (Druidic aspects).
3. Humans from Stormwind, Kultiras and Gilneas (Human Kingdoms).
4. Dwarves and Pandaren (love for brews).
5. Night elves and Pandaren (old allies).
6. Draenei and Stormwind Humans (faith in the Light).
7. Draenei and Lightforged Draenei (faith in the Light).
8. Orcs and Mag'har Orcs (love for war).
9. Darkspear and Zandalari (love for Loas and voodoo).
10. Tauren and Highmountain Tauren (Totems and spirituality).
11. Undead and Goblin (cooperated in the War of Thorns in Darkshore - love for death and destruction).
12. Goblin and Orcs (love for war technology - WoD).
13. Blood elves and Nightborne (love for Arcane magic and similar fates).
14. Vulpera and Tauren (both are nomadic).
15. Gnomes and Mechagnomes (love for technology).
16. Dark Iron and Bronzebeard (love for blacksmithing).
17. Void elves and Highborne Night elves (love for magic?)

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The Lightforged should construct more spaceships and take as many races as they can off planet.


Finally, while hovering in the atmosphere above Azeroth, all spaceships simultaneously blast Azeroth and the orbital bombardment destroys the planet once and for all. Now nobody -- not Sargeras, the Jailer, nor the Void Lords -- gets to "claim" Azeroth.


Then a voice from beyond says, "if you all can't play nice then nobody can have it."


That voice? Well it's ________

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Gnomes working with Dark Iron Dwarves who have their own unique technology, who create and use golems and are capable of enhancing them with arcana or fire or electricity or poison, but also use fire or magma elementals could produce interesting results.

I could see the two races working together to create robots enhanced or powered with magic or special runes in the magic area, one example could be a special poison rune that would absord radiations, toxic gas, the plagues made by undeads and other nocive substances to purify Gnomeregan and protect it and Ironforge from biological or chemical attacks.