Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[rhorle]

I used this definition:A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.

You can equal, or counter act, everything that a token gives with reasonable but not excessive amount of effort. So your definition literally states that WoW is not pay to win. This was covered the first time you brought this specific definition up and is why you quickly abandoned it. Stop reverting to things that don't even support your own stance.

[rhorle]

Point 1: Wrong. Boost/Tokens = P2W.
Point 2: I never abandoned. This definition is super valid for Tokens/Boosts.
Point 3: It support my stance on Tokens/Boosts.

If it is wrong then your definition given is wrong. Did you actually read the definition you gave? What do tokens give that can't be gained through playing the game? Everything a token gives is equaled through playing the game. The fact you don't even address the part that goes against your claim shows how you've already abandoned it again.

[rhorle]

, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself. = You dont have to farm it, is instantly given to you without effort. Just pay cash, get gold = Win.

Can you join a group and get loot with reasonable but not excessive effort? If it takes excessive effort to get gold how did others get it in order to provide it for a token? You don't just pay cash and get gold. You still have a fundamental lack of knowledge in how the token works. It requires a person to provide the gold to you. So you can pay cash and get no gold.

Despite your lengthy arguments having gold is not winning at anything.

[rhorle]

For a new player is hard to get gold. For a not so new player is also tricky to get it....it depends of the player. But using cash to get it = P2W.

It depends on the player. Which means it isn't something that requires excessive effort to equal or counter act. Simply having the gold does not give you a win though since it requires players providing a service. Something that isn't excessive for them because it can be offered en masse. So by your own definition both gold, and token, are not pay to win.

[rhorle]

If i have to farm for the gold, and another guys gets 190k just because he paid 20USD = Pay to Win.

He doesn't just get it though. It requires someone to farm for it. So either way someone is farming for it and the advantage is equaled, or counter acted, with reasonable play. Your own definition does not include the token, or gold gained from it, as pay to win.

[rhorle]

0 effort + cash = Pay to Win.
Token = Pay to Win.

"Others effort+cash=token". Since there is effort involved your new equation indicates that the token is not pay to win after all.

[TidalConflux]

I used this definition:
A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.

In resume:
- Tokens Gold
- Boosts

Then WoW has been pay-to-win prior to tokens/boosts -- because RMT was always a blight. Again, your argument doesnt talk about legality or consequence -- only you pay money to get X or the pathway to X. When you try to make the definition as vague as possible, any game that has a player economy would technically be P2W because of a player-based market and its offerings.

This is why games with active player-based economies have RMT. The only way to solve that issue is to remove a player-based economy.

[rhorle]

Other effort? I don't see any here:

Where do you think the gold comes from?

[Marakara]

Mobile games p2w models allow whales to completely dominate pvp and leaderboards, whereas wow's "p2w" model allows you to skip time and gear climbs and play on "equal footing". the fact that people are comparing wow's gold tokens to premium currency and $-only character/gear in other games is laughable.

If your problem is with the fact that people can buy gold and character boosts, that's real nitpicky over how people spend their free time rather than grinding/leveling. If your problem is with the fact that people can buy real advantages that other people can't get from playing the game normally, you're delusional and making up problems that frankly don't exist.

[Marakara]

So that means you are Ok, with Pay to Win. Well, its up to you.

It's a matter of convenience not a matter of win/lose. You can buy all the gold tokens and boosts you want but you can't get an advantage that I'm not able to get because I don't buy gold.

[Kithelle]

Bolded is indeed correct.

The amount of people participating in said P2W components is irrelevant. That's why I challenged your "You think everyone is spending hundreds of dollars for them?"-rationale.

There are players who never touch these features on famous P2W games, namely mobile games. But the fact that the systems are in place are what makes these games P2W, not the amount of whales said game has.

But WoW isn't pay2win not because it has a in game store...do you know what pay to win even means? I'm guessing not...you don't "win" if you're just paying for a head start that dedicated players with be able to earn soon enough.

Pay to win means buying a advantage that can't be earned without paying money...so no, WoW isn't pay to win

[rhorle]

Who gets the Real Money Rhorle?

The real money side is not in dispute here so why not just answer the question I asked. Gold is supplied by players and not Blizzard. So the effort to obtain gold is provided by the player and is not absent from the equation. It is directly linked to the value the token provides. Effort for money. So by your own argument it is not pay to win because effort is still involved.

[rhorle]

Its completely irrelevant the other guy action. I just need to buy the token with cash, sit on my chair and wait for the gold to appear. 0 effort, 0 time invested on making that gold. I just paid cash, got my gold and i won 190k for doing nothing.

The effort is directly linked though because with out a player putting in that effort there is no one to buy your token. You are ignoring half of the system simply because it invalidates your point. That is why it keeps getting brought up. Because it is how tokens function. Player supplied gold that trades their effort for your $15. It isn't an excuse.

Blizzard only charges you $20 for a token. It is technically possible to never receive gold from that token. It isn't as simple as you keep trying to make it out to be. What you keep describing is a micro transaction and not a pay to win. The token is a micro transaction because you exchange an item for gold.

[rhorle]

Its such an invalid argument. You put 0 effort on buying a token and sell it for gold. Its like you just have to wait for one to be available and thats all. It stays the same Rhorle. Its a P2W, where you made 0 effort for it. You paid cash = you got an advantage = you win.

So the effort for someone to obtain the gold is invalid. But the effort to use the gold on a win is valid? Weird how anything that doesn't show what you want is invalid. If effort is irrelevant then it must be removed on all sides. Gold for money does not provide wins.

The token functions based on the effort of players. You are buying the effort it took that player to earn the gold. You can't just ignore it because you want to. Create a better argument.

[Marakara]

Its such an invalid argument. You put 0 effort on buying a token and sell it for gold. Its like you just have to wait for one to be available and thats all. It stays the same Rhorle. Its a P2W, where you made 0 effort for it.

You paid cash = you got an advantage = you win.

How does the gold give you an advantage? It doesn't get you better gear than what's available, as people need to be selling it for you to buy it, which means other people already have the same or better gear. It doesn't skip timegates.

[Darkeon]

But WoW isn't pay2win not because it has a in game store...do you know what pay to win even means? I'm guessing not...you don't "win" if you're just paying for a head start that dedicated players with be able to earn soon enough.

Pay to win means buying a advantage that can't be earned without paying money...so no, WoW isn't pay to win

A player that purchases a boost has an advantage over a player that doesn't purchase a boost.
A player that purchases gold has an advantage over a player that doesn't purchases gold.
In some cases (loltree) some of the combat pets are an advantage.

Do you even play WoW, my man?

[doodle90]

Great story! Now how does it help a solo raider "win"?

Why has your definition changed so dramatically in 2 posts? Now, not only do you need to "win" but other players cannot have access to the same stuff in game? That wasnt part of your "this is so simple" definition.

My definition never changed you just have poor comprehension and still do not understand it.
Winning in this game is being able to beat people in pvp, or by outdpsing/etc people in PVE. Buying tokens does NOT do that. Because....For the 04398409840984 time people have told you this and IDK how this is difficult for you to get. EVERYTHING A TOKEN GETS YOU YOU CAN SIMPLY GET FROM PLAYING THE GAME WITHOUT BUYING THE TOKEN..... THAT MEANS THE TOKEN DOES NOT GIVE YOU A WIN!!!... THE TOKEN DOES NOT PUT YOU AT A HIGHER LEVEL THAN EVERYONE.

[Darkeon]

My definition never changed you just have poor comprehension and still do not understand it.
Winning in this game is being able to beat people in pvp, or by outdpsing/etc people in PVE. Buying tokens does NOT do that. Because....For the 04398409840984 time people have told you this and IDK how this is difficult for you to get. EVERYTHING A TOKEN GETS YOU YOU CAN SIMPLY GET FROM PLAYING THE GAME WITHOUT BUYING THE TOKEN..... THAT MEANS THE TOKEN DOES NOT GIVE YOU A WIN!!!... THE TOKEN DOES NOT PUT YOU AT A HIGHER LEVEL THAN EVERYONE.

The 2000s called. The model where you purchase items stronger than what you can earn in-game died literally decades ago. Money is on bypassing grinds, often deliberately done to be tedious and time-gated.

[Marakara]

The 2000s called. The model where you purchase items stronger than what you can earn in-game died literally decades ago. Money is on bypassing grinds, often deliberately done to be tedious and time-gated.

You've never played a mobile game it appears. The reason why players hate pay2win models is because it's seen as unfair that you can get an advantage that is not normally available, you are only able to pay to win. For instance, in League of Legends you can buy premium skins that have no effect on gameplay. You can also buy champions with $ but those aren't locked behind money-only currency. No one is calling League of Legends P2W because you can skip the grind by using $, and if you are you're really missing the criticism of and problems with actual pay2win games like most popular mobile games that give an overwhelmingly unfair advantage to people who drop hundreds of dollars on a game.

In WoW, I can't gain any advantage by buying gold, because I already have gold. Gold won't give me renown or get me my achievements or help my guild get to 6/10 M instead of 5/10. Giving a new player 190k from buying a token isn't any different than a new player being given gold by their friends/guild. Is this game guild2win? Do you need to come with friends to gain an inherent advantage unable to be got w/o friends? Your arguments are ridiculous because you're being pedantically literal. Yes you can drop money on this game but I guarantee you it won't get you into any world first guilds or give you any advantage that you wouldn't have been able to get w/o the gold. In fact it probably makes you a worse player by not giving you exposure to your boosted character or learning the dungeons that you're going to try in M+ w/ your shiny BoEs.

[Darkeon]

You've never played a mobile game it appears. The reason why players hate pay2win models is because it's seen as unfair that you can get an advantage that is not normally available, you are only able to pay to win. For instance, in League of Legends you can buy premium skins that have no effect on gameplay. You can also buy champions with $ but those aren't locked behind money-only currency. No one is calling League of Legends P2W because you can skip the grind by using $, and if you are you're really missing the criticism of and problems with actual pay2win games like most popular mobile games that give an overwhelmingly unfair advantage to people who drop hundreds of dollars on a game.

In WoW, I can't gain any advantage by buying gold, because I already have gold. Gold won't give me renown or get me my achievements or help my guild get to 6/10 M instead of 5/10. Giving a new player 190k from buying a token isn't any different than a new player being given gold by their friends/guild. Is this game guild2win? Do you need to come with friends to gain an inherent advantage unable to be got w/o friends? Your arguments are ridiculous because you're being pedantically literal. Yes you can drop money on this game but I guarantee you it won't get you into any world first guilds or give you any advantage that you wouldn't have been able to get w/o the gold. In fact it probably makes you a worse player by not giving you exposure to your boosted character or learning the dungeons that you're going to try in M+ w/ your shiny BoEs.

You talk about mobile games, in which you pay to unlock EnergyX because it's fucking timegated, and character levels that will NEVER exceed the level allowed in-game and thus merely a way to bypass the slow grind of leveling these up yourself - and then have the gall to speak about League of Legends COSMETIC skins?

What a preposterous low effort reply.

EDIT: Not to mention the extremely dangerous dose of Copium straight to the veins of trying to paint someone who boosted their way to top gear to "Not be a real win because they ll be a bad player" as if that negates the fact they did they pay to get there - Fucking hilarious attempt.