Steve Danuser wants to write WoW as a children's book:

[Kaleredar]

I can't say i'm a fan of any thing Danuser has done since he was put in charge but is "dragons don't care about gender" really something to bitch and moan about?

My thinking on the matter is... If Blizzard, as the ultimate arbiters of what's possible in the warcraft universe, wanted to tell an apparently trans-related story... couldn't they have just told a story about the actual dragon transitioning from male to female? Rather than them doing what is essentially putting on a disguise to do so?

I think it's pretty clear the whole "chromie" name thing was a mistake someone made a long time ago in the naming conventions and nobody really cared to correct.

It strikes me as more... lazy than anything.

[Syegfryed]

warcraft has always had nonsenses, inconsistencies, retcons and other questionable moves for chock value or rule of cool, None of those has dictated a Objective quality of the lore though if they did then the lore would always have been bad.

That is like saying climate change is not a problem now because "we had different climates in the past".

Wow having those things in the past does not exclude that those things now are harming the story to fundamental levels that can't be repaired without a reset.

the difference is that while they are still using retcons or being inconsistence now we would say the way there doing it is worse but that's a Subjective view based on how we personally feel.

if you constant use those things, way more than in the past, that is not subjective

[DemonHunter18]

the WoW writers the last few expansions are arguably the worst in the MMORPG landscape.

ESO is better, SWTOR has better writing, FF14 better writing... is there a single current mmorpg with worse writing than WoW?

How these jabroni's manage to keep their jobs while being staggeringly awful is beyond me.

Read this my friend

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ing-the-future

https://activisionblizzard.com/newsr...ve-game-worlds

[Frozen Death Knight]

I can't say i'm a fan of any thing Danuser has done since he was put in charge but is "dragons don't care about gender" really something to bitch and moan about?

We all know the reason they changed the lore to make Chromie trans and dragons "choosing" the gender; to score brownie points with people that do not care about lore, canon, and so on as long as it fits a certain politically correct mindset. Metzen and the other writers during his reign were primarily old school fantasy nerds that wrote stuff because it was cool and fun, not to do activism. This is such a blatant retcon that did not come naturally from years of development from the people who made the franchise such a cultural icon in gaming.

I know that WarCraft has had some loose lore over the years with retcons, but to me this is where I draw the line in the sand and say enough is enough. WarCraft was always about escapism with dragons, swords, and cool characters doing epic feats in their fight for survival in a war torn world. When you break this escapism by introducing modern politics into a world that is far from politically correct, then the immersion and magic of escapism are broken.

If Blizzard wanted this stuff in their games, then they already have Overwatch to do so.

[Azerate]

Don't care much for lore but I love things like this because they make all the toxic people show their true colors. In a way it's kind of sad but on the plus side all you transphobes will now have to play a game with that one thing you hate in.

[Syegfryed]

It strikes me as more... lazy than anything.

I mean it is, we even had sources that said chromie was just a female but with a male/unisex name. they straight up retconed that.

I for once, give two shits about this thing, but wasting resources to create a book about that?

like... there is so much more things to write and focus about dragons, who the hell care about "the ritual of a dragon choosing a mortal race to assume", there was not even one, they just appear to be what they want at the time and it mostly just human and elves, so fucking boring.

[Verdugo]

Dont forget that this retcon means that corrupted black dragons naturaly choose darker skin humans. Good job Blizzard, you ousted yourself as closet racists.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That is like saying climate change is not a problem now because "we had different climates in the past".

Wow having those things in the past does not exclude that those things now are harming the story to fundamental levels that can't be repaired without a reset.

No it would be saying X was causing Climate change in the past and X is still causing climate change today. That wouldn't be an objective drop in quality if nothing had changed.

you constant use those things, way more than in the past, that is not subjective

Sure but can you show any thing with a factual basis that it is happening way more then in the past that isn't based on feelings? Like say do we have a record of every time one of those things have ever happened in wow and dates to compare which periods had a higher frequency? because that's the only real way we could measure it in an objective fashion, without a robust data base to contrast in compare we can only go with rather we feel its been happening more or not which is again just feelings based.

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Dont forget that this retcon means that corrupted black dragons naturaly choose darker skin humans. Good job Blizzard.

None corrupted black dragons also choose darker skinned humans as wrathaion shows.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Dont forget that this retcon means that corrupted black dragons naturaly choose darker skin humans. Good job Blizzard.

Oh snap. They really did not think that through, did they? XD

[Kaleredar]

Don't care much for lore but I love things like this because they make all the toxic people show their true colors. In a way it's kind of sad but on the plus side all you transphobes will now have to play a game with that one thing you hate in.

I can't speak for other people, but I'm personally saying that, if they want to do a trans story, perhaps they could do a better job than taking some naming convention someone messed up a while ago and trying to retcon and spin it into a pretty slipshod attempt at telling one.

I don't pretend to be some arbiter on trans issues, but doesn't championing a male dragon putting on a female disguise and switching back and forth at will kind of... undercut... the notion of someone transitioning genders? Especially when they, as the deciders of what's possible in the WoW universe, could have just made the actual dragon change from male to female?

It's like the whole Dumbledore thing. Nobody cares if Dumbledore is gay (well maybe some people do, but nobody that matters,) but Rowling could have... you know, written that into the stories rather than try and get cool points for it after the fact. In my mind the thing with Pelagos is a better attempt at doing that because, while it might run a bit counterfactual to the lore, at least that was there intent from the start to make them effectively trans.

In so many words, my concern isn't "don't do it," my concern is "do it better."

[Mentacyde]

Lmao imagine being transphobic in 2021

[FelPlague]

"Steve wanted to explore how a dragon chooses their humanoid form with the short story involving Chromie and what it would mean for a male dragon to choose a female form. It is meant to show that the world of Azeroth has love and acceptance and an opportunity for people to see themselves represented in this world."

Love and acceptance in Azeroth, meanwhile Warcraft originated from Orcs and Humans battling it out with eachother over land and cultural differences.
What a fucking joke.
This guy is completely nuts and infected with social virtueing disease.

I hate to break it to you. But a world can have both "love and acceptance" and also have "war over land and murder over cultural differences" I mean have you looked fucking outside for 5 seconds?

Yes he worked one fairy tail book for wow to explore the more wonderful and happy and loving wife of Azeroth, between the countless books about murder and war and genocide.

Uh oh 1 single book about Azeroth having some nice things, I guess that means wow will never be about war again!

Nah, that's literally not how it works, look at quests. We have tons of quests were we just help out an old lady make a pie for her grandson, a lost girl find her parents. A man looking for his lost book, ok rather take things cause guess what, a world of war is not 100% war with every single person being a soldier thinking about how to murder every second. Sometimes they sit down and tell stories.

[Syegfryed]

No it would be saying X was causing Climate change in the past and X is still causing climate change today. That wouldn't be an objective drop in quality if nothing had changed.

X was causing climate change in the past, now we have X, Y and Z causing it too, it is worse now than in the past.

Sure but can you show any thing with a factual basis that it is happening way more then in the past that isn't based on feelings?

You want an example, ok, Check out Mists of pandaria and Battle for azeroth. Characters interactions, reasons for war and etc. Bfa is straight up a worse version of cata-mop events.

While in cataclysm-mop we had several struggles and well construct inner conflict between the horde leaders about the war situation and how to deal with it, to a point of people not backing up their warchief, not even his closest advisors(with is Eitrgg, being opposed to Garrosh war) in Bfa we have a clusterfuck of people being dumbed down or lobotomized to follow a undead elf who genocide their enemies, without problem or saying anything(Eitrigg who was opposed to Garrosh attacking night elves, give two shits about the genocide and it is fighting for sylvanas all the way in Bfa), they were completely fine until they weren't anymore.

If you can't see the fundamental changes of how they handled it the story, and how things went worse, and claim tis just feelings, there is not much i can do, i give one of the best examples i can remember atm.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I can't believe I'm typing this, but damn I miss Kosak...

I miss Metzen and Ghostcrawler

[FelPlague]

Oh, almost certainly. Danuser claims it was because someone's kid complained but given they changed those lines but didn't change Nazgrim talking about Thrall's balls or Sylvanas herself calling Arthas a son of a bitch, it's pretty clear why he actually did it. I don't mind Danuser hitting back at Afrasiabi as Afrasiabi was terrible - easily the worst of their original writers, save maybe Knaak, by a country mile. His brainchild BFA, which exists solely so that Afrasiabi could get back at Kosak for Mists but is somehow worse in every aspect, still towers over all other harmful narratives this game has produced. That said, Danuser is also bad, albeit for marginally different reasons.

Wait where did sylvanas call Arthas son of a bitch? I was pretty sure the garrosh line was the only actual swear in the entire game.

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Are we going to ignore that:
-Garrosh called Sylvanas bitch?
-Orcs were raping Draenei captive women?
-Demon Hunters have their eyes burned out?
-Forsaken were doing experiments on human beings?
-Thaddius was made as a patchwork from slaughtered women and children?
-Night Elves in Teldrassil were burned alive?

Nah don't you know, if they make a single book exploring the good sides of Azeroth, instantly it's a kids game.

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I hate Danuser as much as the next guy but this is just a thinly veiled stab at inclusivity and trans narratives unless you want to make the case that literally any wholesome part of WoW should go in favor of death and gore.

In which case go off king but that is not and has never been World of Warcraft.

Having a genocidal elf burn a civilisation doesn't mean that you cannot have a story about love and acceptance, that's what makes Warcraft a world, that a mutlitude of different people exist.

It might not be what you want to see but, well, the game isn't just for edgy 13 year old boys anymore.

Speaking of 13, the game is LITERALLY rated PG 13. If you want mAtUrE narratives there are other games for that.

Speaking people in this thread are also mad about how they added wheelchairs to D&D I'm pretty sure you are spot on with the "their complaint is really just them being assholes"

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Honest question: why in the fucking fuck would a creature who can live far longer than mortals will stick around give 2 flying fucks about living as a female being male???

Why would a being who is immortal care about the body they have? Why do you care about your body? Compared to ants you are pretty much immortal, so why do you care about how you look? Go out eat get fat wear rags, who cares.

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TFW edgy generalization because of some stupid misplaced virtue signals. There’s still plenty of genocide and nasty slaughters, there’s just a bit of well-meaning but mildly irritating attempts at poking at contemporary issues.

No you are wrong, don't you know, entire world must be dark endless genocide and slaughter, or it is happy lovey my little pony land! THERE IS NO INBETWEEN!!!!

[Felrane]

Same... I look at what the Hearthstone people are doing like....

LOL ive been thinking how much better hearthstone lore has been and wishing it would be put into wow. The Tanaris becoming a massive city could be so much fun!

[FelPlague]

We all know the reason they changed the lore to make Chromie trans and dragons "choosing" the gender; to score brownie points with people that do not care about lore, canon, and so on as long as it fits a certain politically correct mindset. Metzen and the other writers during his reign were primarily old school fantasy nerds that wrote stuff because it was cool and fun, not to do activism. This is such a blatant retcon that did not come naturally from years of development from the people who made the franchise such a cultural icon in gaming.

I know that WarCraft has had some loose lore over the years with retcons, but to me this is where I draw the line in the sand and say enough is enough. WarCraft was always about escapism with dragons, swords, and cool characters doing epic feats in their fight for survival in a war torn world. When you break this escapism by introducing modern politics into a world that is far from politically correct, then the immersion and magic of escapism are broken.

If Blizzard wanted this stuff in their games, then they already have Overwatch to do so.

"Such a blatant retcon" except it's not. Chromie was never confirmed female. They literally hinted at it years ago. With asking "why do you choose a female form... It's complicated." Chromie has always had a male dragon name, but taken a female form. It's not a retcon.

Also I love how you say "being trans or disabled is politics" fuck off. Imagine if someone said "I don't want minorities in my game cause they are political" banned right away right? So why is it ok to say such for people who are disabled or trans?

Imagine thinking a person having their gender changed is fucking political, especially since wow has had gender changes in the game since 2008.

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I can't speak for other people, but I'm personally saying that, if they want to do a trans story, perhaps they could do a better job than taking some naming convention someone messed up a while ago and trying to retcon and spin it into a pretty slipshod attempt at telling one.

I don't pretend to be some arbiter on trans issues, but doesn't championing a male dragon putting on a female disguise and switching back and forth at will kind of... undercut... the notion of someone transitioning genders? Especially when they, as the deciders of what's possible in the WoW universe, could have just made the actual dragon change from male to female?

It's like the whole Dumbledore thing. Nobody cares if Dumbledore is gay (well maybe some people do, but nobody that matters,) but Rowling could have... you know, written that into the stories rather than try and get cool points for it after the fact. In my mind the thing with Pelagos is a better attempt at doing that because, while it might run a bit counterfactual to the lore, at least that was there intent from the start to make them effectively trans.

In so many words, my concern isn't "don't do it," my concern is "do it better."

I love how you say "if they wanted to make Dumbledore gay they shoulda written that into the story I stead of just saying it for brownie points" but then in the same post say "they just wrote in. Brooke is gay to get good brownie points" so what is it? Do they need to say it ,or write it?



btw i would love to point out if going into wow to "escape politics" is your guys ACTUAL point as you keep referencing, you are doing it wrong, go play mario, cause wow has literally always been filled with politics, like seriously, the culling of stratholme for example is a massive political point. the game has been full of political talk and intrigue with talks of what is best, this and that.


it reminds me of this

[Syegfryed]

Could not agree more.

Legion wasn't as bad as people give it shit for. Sure, it was not the most polished, and it's systems weren't PERFECT - But the game had a vision, the story was relatively ok, and if they had properly taken the time to address all the outstanding story threads, I could have seen WoW's story ending properly with Legion.

Both BfA and Shadowlands have been utter shitshows. It's beyond obvious that with BfA they tried to set something up which failed miserably, and then already tied into the two expansions worth of story they'd tried to build up (unsuccessfully), they couldn't divert course without MAJOR revisions to everything. Thus we get the hacked together bullshit we got.

I mean, literally every piece of major lore got shit on to make... this.

Legion was as bad as shadowlands, the thing that make it looked way better it was because one, it came after wod, two, it was build on top of something already established that was 'good"(the whole legion mythos), they just had to use it, and even wit that there was bad things

[Rendark]

This kind of stuff is funny because who cares. To most people she will always be that gnome dragon girl.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I miss Metzen and Ghostcrawler

I'm in the same boat. As flawed as WoW could be at times, I at least never felt any apathy towards the future of the game or the franchise as a whole. BfA began changing that for me and Shadowlands is feeling like the final nail in the coffin. This is no longer the game series I became obsessed over all those years ago back in WarCraft 3 and Vanilla. They might turn the ship around, but I really doubt it at this point.