Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Le Conceptuel]

Seems like the latest interview makes it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that Sylvanas is going to survive the end of the raid. I guess then the only question left is whether she will have a redemption arc now or later.

Personally I hope she gets away to an increasingly tenous relationship with the Jailer. Would be fitting punishment for her character who prides herself on being in control, even compared to a threat like the jailer to be forcibly humbled, potentially even having ot swallow her pride and accept judgment to get even close to her ideal version of events.

For a curveball twist going forward I am going to predict right here and now that it will be Sylvanas that is instrumental in helping us find and free Arthas. If Sylvanas should get anything close to a redemption then she should be able to prove it by helping Arthas.

Well, that would have a bit of a peculiar message in it, wouldn’t it? Add to that I simply couldn’t feasibly imagine Sylvanas doing anything good to do with Arthas, even though I may be putting too much faith in Blizzard.

It would be nice to see Sylvanas sidelined, given how egotistical she is. I would say that if they give Sylvie some buildup to betraying the Jailer, it would be quite a helpful alteration of the current sequence of roller coaster plotlines where everything happens at once. However, it should simultaneously be kept in mind that Blizzard does seem to prefer the roller coaster, specifically focused on the “oomph” moments. I do figure not having Sylvie betray the Jailer after her fight in SoD could reduce the oomph of the aftermath of the fight.

Then again, I must emphasize I still prefer the latter, despite the latter seeming more Blizzardesque. If it were the former,
that could indicate a positive alteration in Blizzard’s general collective skills of story composition. Overall, the current lot have surprisingly improved from their prior state circa 9.1., so I have some (minimal) faith in the writers.

Conversely, I still could feasibly see them doing a redemption in which the victim of a genocide is forced to forgive the person responsible for her genocide to make up for her own genocide. Although it would give some relatively sufficient equivalent exchange for her potential redemption, it would still be pretty awkward, which sadly isn’t far off from Blizzard’s usual standard.

[Nagawithlegs]

Seems like the latest interview makes it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that Sylvanas is going to survive the end of the raid. I guess then the only question left is whether she will have a redemption arc now or later.

I honestly don't think she'll get a redemption arc. From the sound of that one Alleria fairy tale, the Sylvanas we know isn't "the real one" because the Jailer has her soul shard.

Maybe this version of Sylvanas dies and is something like Uther, a bad half? It would explain why the Sylvanas that comes back from her suicide is almost purely negative/spiteful. The "future of Sylvanas" could be that other half of her.

[Sondrelk]

Well, that would have a bit of a peculiar message in it, wouldn’t it? Add to that I simply couldn’t feasibly imagine Sylvanas doing anything good to do with Arthas, even though I may be putting too much faith in Blizzard.

It would be nice to see Sylvanas sidelined, given how egotistical she is. I would say that if they give Sylvie some buildup to betraying the Jailer, it would be quite a helpful alteration of the current sequence of roller coaster plotlines where everything happens at once. However, it should simultaneously be kept in mind that Blizzard does seem to prefer the roller coaster, specifically focused on the “oomph” moments. I do figure not having Sylvie betray the Jailer after her fight in SoD could reduce the oomph of the aftermath of the fight.

Then again, I must emphasize I still prefer the latter, despite the latter seeming more Blizzardesque. If it were the former,
that could indicate a positive alteration in Blizzard’s general collective skills of story composition. Overall, the current lot have surprisingly improved from their prior state circa 9.1., so I have some (minimal) faith in the writers.

Conversely, I still could feasibly see them doing a redemption in which the victim of a genocide is forced to forgive the person responsible for her genocide to make up for her own genocide. Although it would give some relatively sufficient equivalent exchange for her potential redemption, it would still be pretty awkward, which sadly isn’t far off from Blizzard’s usual standard.

The thing about Sylvanas helping redeem Arthas is that by her getting a redemption you essentially prove that Arthas is more worthy of one.

Pretty much all the material released in the runup to SL onwards has hammered in more that Arthas was at worst being manipulated by the Jailer. The worst possible scenario currently possible is that teh Jailer made Arthas go insane, and pretty much all more realistic estimates of his influence points to Arthas if not being directly controlled at least heavily manipulated at all times. See for instance the Short story released before SL that pertains Bolvar giving in to the power of the Jailer to defeat Sylvanas with the knowledge and intent that he will be unable to stop himself from becoming teh new Lich King proper.

Blizzard has already painted themselves into a corner with Sylvanas. There is no way they are getting out of tarnishing her character. If they amp up her evil actions then she is insane, if they give her a redemption arc then it would make her seem insane AND schizophrenic in actions. If they give her a redemption by way of secret good soul split then they cheapen and essentially ruin her entire character since WC3.
Having her accept rescuing Arthas because of an understanding that they were both tools for the Jailer at least only requires saying Sylvanas is narcissistic enough to think she was the smartest person ever. Not to mention it would ever so slightly redeem her actions in BfA as being done by someone who thinks she is smarter than she is instead of a genius.


Of course, the writing for Sylvanas is at the point whereexpectations for even a halfway coherent and decent narrative is thrown out the window, so I would not be surprised if Blizzard steers her story into the treshing machine instead of the dumpster by the end.

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I honestly don't think she'll get a redemption arc. From the sound of that one Alleria fairy tale, the Sylvanas we know isn't "the real one" because the Jailer has her soul shard.

Maybe this version of Sylvanas dies and is something like Uther, a bad half? It would explain why the Sylvanas that comes back from her suicide is almost purely negative/spiteful. The "future of Sylvanas" could be that other half of her.

This would only work in the same way that if you found another character named Anduin then you have saved his character.

The "evil" Sylvanas is at best the one we have known since Cata, and most likely the one we know from WC3. It wouldnt be saving her character, it would be resetting her character and pretending it somehow translates to the character we know.

We could free the good Sylvanas and send her to heaven or whatever but it wouldnt be redeeming Sylvanas, it would be saving a soul with a name we know from WC3. No more important in the grand scheme than saving Anesterian or Terenas or what have you.

[Le Conceptuel]

The thing about Sylvanas helping redeem Arthas is that by her getting a redemption you essentially prove that Arthas is more worthy of one.

Pretty much all the material released in the runup to SL onwards has hammered in more that Arthas was at worst being manipulated by the Jailer. The worst possible scenario currently possible is that teh Jailer made Arthas go insane, and pretty much all more realistic estimates of his influence points to Arthas if not being directly controlled at least heavily manipulated at all times. See for instance the Short story released before SL that pertains Bolvar giving in to the power of the Jailer to defeat Sylvanas with the knowledge and intent that he will be unable to stop himself from becoming teh new Lich King proper.

Blizzard has already painted themselves into a corner with Sylvanas. There is no way they are getting out of tarnishing her character. If they amp up her evil actions then she is insane, if they give her a redemption arc then it would make her seem insane AND schizophrenic in actions. If they give her a redemption by way of secret good soul split then they cheapen and essentially ruin her entire character since WC3.
Having her accept rescuing Arthas because of an understanding that they were both tools for the Jailer at least only requires saying Sylvanas is narcissistic enough to think she was the smartest person ever. Not to mention it would ever so slightly redeem her actions in BfA as being done by someone who thinks she is smarter than she is instead of a genius.


Of course, the writing for Sylvanas is at the point whereexpectations for even a halfway coherent and decent narrative is thrown out the window, so I would not be surprised if Blizzard steers her story into the treshing machine instead of the dumpster by the end.

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This would only work in the same way that if you found another character named Anduin then you have saved his character.

The "evil" Sylvanas is at best the one we have known since Cata, and most likely the one we know from WC3. It wouldnt be saving her character, it would be resetting her character and pretending it somehow translates to the character we know.

We could free the good Sylvanas and send her to heaven or whatever but it wouldnt be redeeming Sylvanas, it would be saving a soul with a name we know from WC3. No more important in the grand scheme than saving Anesterian or Terenas or what have you.

Arthas wasn’t being manipulated by the Jailer, though. He purged Stratholme on his own, was consumed by vengeance on his own, burned down ships on his own, and picked up Frostmourne and left Muradin to die on his own. He’s still a pretty bad guy to start. Add to this how it’s explicitly indicated that all the Lich Kings, Arthas included, defied the Jailer. If the Jailer had total control over anyone who touches Frostmourne or the Helm of Domination, he’d have total control over Bolvar for the latter and the Deathlord themselves for the former (through the Blades of the Fallen Prince).

[Sondrelk]

Arthas wasn’t being manipulated by the Jailer, though. He purged Stratholme on his own, was consumed by vengeance on his own, burned down ships on his own, and picked up Frostmourne and left Muradin to die on his own. He’s still a pretty bad guy to start. Add to this how it’s explicitly indicated that all the Lich Kings, Arthas included, defied the Jailer. If the Jailer had total control over anyone who touches Frostmourne or the Helm of Domination, he’d have total control over Bolvar for the latter and the Deathlord themselves for the former (through the Blades of the Fallen Prince).

All the stuff up until he picked up Frostmourne he was manipulated into doing. He did them by his ow nchoice but still.

The thing is that we have no way of knowing when exactly the Jailer started directly manipulating him. It was extremely vague if he even did way back, but we can now infer from the Short Story that blue eyes are a telltale sign that the Lich King is being directly controlled.

The importnt distinction though is that the actions of Arthas after picking up Frostmourne are ambigious as to how involved he actually was. He could have done it entirely of hiss own volition, or he could have been directly controlled like Anduin is currently.
Personally I would imagine more of a case of being heavily goaded into doing something. At least with Bolvar he mentioned having ot fight off urges and commands from the Crown and therefore the Jailer constnatly, with each attempt at grasping more power from it just making him more and more susceptible to being controlled, with him being certain that once he defeated Sylvanas he would no longer be in control of his actions. Given how he thought it would go down it seems likely that he didnt mean he would be directly controlled, but rather that he would be essentailly powerless to stop hismelf from not doing what the Jailer asked of him.

Sylvanas meanwhile is always shown as not being mind controlled in any way. And in that case her actions far outweigh anything Arthas did, even as the Lich King. Arthas at worst only wanted to kill Azeroth, Sylvanas wanted to feed the souls of the dead to the Jailer for the purpose of killing everyone ever.


In short, if Sylvanas is redeemed then Arthas is going to be as well. There is no reasonable way to spin Arthas being in control while simultaenously saying Sylvanas wasnt. Even ignoring the heavy hints he was controlled in this very expansion he was only ever stated to be in control of his actions in the Arthas novel, which isnt really canon anymore insofar as the Jailer exists.

[Edward Wu]

There are no absurdities in my argument to point out. You are making nonsense comments entirely divorced from the matter at hand.

Add to this how, if the consensus among people who otherwise seem to agree with you remains that you are still obnoxious and utterly inane, you are probably obnoxious and inane. Eventually, there’s a point where you’ve got to admit that it’s not that everyone else is conformist sheep, but that you’re just the outlier. Drop the Ben Shapiro shtick, you’re the one spouting absurdities.

Firstly, you simply can’t make claims without supporting them. If you have even the most passing education in critical thinking, you should be able to produce a pretty simple argument. I’m not asking you to debate me, I am asking you to give me the framework—even a single sentence—to support your claims. Obviously, if you do nothing but spout hearsay in the most obnoxious possible tone, people will expect you to support your claims.

Add to this, we’re on an Internet forum. If you are on a forum, that rather naturally implies a willingness to engage in discussion. This isn’t a blog. You are expected to engage in discussion on a discussion forum.

You seem desperate to engage in an actual argument with me, yet you can't take the time to explain to me why I should even bother with you.

If it's that hard for you, then maybe it's easier for you to just realize that your opinion holds no value to me? You can fling more and more paragraphs at me, but I remain consistent.

[Makabreska]

You seem desperate to engage in an actual argument with me, yet you can't take the time to explain to me why I should even bother with you.

If it's that hard for you, then maybe it's easier for you to just realize that your opinion holds no value to me? You can fling more and more paragraphs at me, but I remain consistent.

Here is the thing, guys like you are nothing new here. Time and time again we had these special little individuals who, under the guise of "speaking the truth" and "fighting the shills", spew nothing but negativity. And then they ended perma banned. And then they created new accounts, because with all their talk about others being WoW addicts etc, they themself couldn't stop from posting here. So you do you. It's all business as usual.

[Dracullus]

Ok, got my 4th char to Renown 40, now I have all covenant Pokemons. I'll try to do campaign chapter on all same week it's released, I wonder if there are some subtle differences.

Here is the thing, guys like you are nothing new here. Time and time again we had these special little individuals who, under the guys of "speaking the truth" and "fighting the shills", spew nothing but negativity. And then they ended perma banned. And then they created new accounts, because with all their talk about others being WoW addicts etc, they themself couldn't stop from posting here. So you do you. It's all business as usual.

Man, he knows that shit. It's probably some alt account of someone long forgotten. When fly go through window and buzz around you, you don't engage in discussion with her.

[Edward Wu]

Here is the thing, guys like you are nothing new here. Time and time again we had these special little individuals who, under the guise of "speaking the truth" and "fighting the shills", spew nothing but negativity. And then they ended perma banned. And then they created new accounts, because with all their talk about others being WoW addicts etc, they themself couldn't stop from posting here. So you do you. It's all business as usual.

Pretty sure it's almost impossible to get perma-banned from MMO-C, so nice little fanfic you just cooked up there.

[Dracullus]

Pretty sure it's almost impossible to get perma-banned from MMO-C, so nice little fanfic you just cooked up there.

How could you know with just year of experience? /s

[Sentynel]

Pretty sure it's almost impossible to get perma-banned from MMO-C, so nice little fanfic you just cooked up there.

Oh my sweet summer child...

Dicks out for Jaylock everyone

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Pretty sure it's almost impossible to get perma-banned from MMO-C, so nice little fanfic you just cooked up there.

If you like I can PM a list of 11 members I remember who are permanently banned.

[therumblings]

Let's be real here, you've never had a pulse on me or any cogent point at all and are only mad because I'm ruining your safe space.

S'okay, just be honest about it instead of playing the midwit.

You don't know a thing about me nor any of my opinions, if you did, you'd realize the fool you're making of yourself.

Pretty sure it's almost impossible to get perma-banned from MMO-C, so nice little fanfic you just cooked up there.

I commend your trolling attempt, Jaylock would be proud.

[Edward Wu]

You don't know a thing about me nor any of my opinions, if you did, you'd realize the fool you're making of yourself.



I commend your trolling attempt, Jaylock would be proud.

The amount of cognitive dissonance needed to post this must be astronomical.

I don't know you because I dare to state that you are incapable and unqualified to make judgments about me. Lol.

Pure comedy, this one.

[therumblings]

The amount of cognitive dissonance needed to post this must be astronomical.

I don't know you because I dare to state that you are incapable and unqualified to make judgments about me. Lol.

Pure comedy, this one.

If you actually bothered to post constructively and not blatantly troll every thread with your blind hatred of your favorite game, you would know I am one of the biggest critics against Blizzard writing and current WoW, making most of your points against me being in a wow "safe space" invalid.

Instead, you would rather insult me with reckless abandon because someone dared to expose the truth to you, that you are a WoW addict.

I will keep feeding you replies though, it's humorous to see the cope.

[Sondrelk]

Ohh hey, someone just got banned, well color me surprised.


So onwards to other things. Which of the many new mounts are people the most excited for? Which mount do people think they are going to be the most dedicated in farming?
Personally I do quite love that tasty Mawsworn Charger. Just running around on Invincible gets boring eventually, I need some new ghostly horses to scratch my undead themed transmog itch.

[Cosmic Janitor]

So onwards to other things. Which of the many new mounts are people the most excited for? Which mount do people think they are going to be the most dedicated in farming?
Personally I do quite love that tasty Mawsworn Charger. Just running around on Invincible gets boring eventually, I need some new ghostly horses to scratch my undead themed transmog itch.

Also the chargers, because we don't have many armored horses on horde side (even on alliance outside of gladi-waste). I'd like an updated model that fits the legion EP tier set and doesn't look like it's 15 years old.

[exochaft]

To all the people upset about the story being about the cosmos, literally every expansion has expanded on our understanding of the cosmos.

BC - Burning Legion, and the Light
WotLK - Ulduar and the Titans and the void
Cata - Old gods, void, some Emerald Dream stuff
MoP - Titans and old god/void
WoD - Burning Legion and some void and light stuff

You get it.

We're getting to "jumping the shark" territory at this point, and the quality of the story indicates as such. In general, you can tell when a franchise is jumping the shark when the do things like introduce time travel, jump to different planes of reality, the stakes in the story jump to astronomical levels, you bend previous stories to fit your new narrative, or start doing "cameo of the day" or bringing back dead fan favorites. WoW has done all of these, and it wouldn't be an issue if the consistency and quality was maintained... but it's not.

As I mentioned in another thread, some things are better left a mystery or unexplored. Why? Expanding into most of the list of things above allows you to hand-wave much of your established story/lore to expand/reset it, yet it is insanely hard to pull off well by even the most talented writers without damaging all your lore or writing yourself into corners. When it comes to WoW, the worst part is that the game itself is not enough to get a good understanding of what's going on, as it leaves so many gaps and inconsistencies that alternative sources (books, etc.) attempt to correct or fill in. That may look nice on paper for a franchise business model, but it's not good for the player of the game.

What's my prediction for 10.0? We're gonna jump the shark even further, so either jumping to another realm/timeline or having something insanely radical happen back in Azeroth. For 9.2 and beyond? I expect more cameos and "Ha! Everything you experienced in <current xpac, past xpac, past game, you get the idea> wasn't what it seemed! It was all part of the plan!"... although I guess 9.1 is doing this, so it's not that big of a stretch. For a humorous visual, imagine the heist episode of Rick and Morty: the WoW storyline will basically be the heist explanations.

[TheFirstOnes]

You gotta love those replies all shitting on retail WoW's awful story. This might be the only place in existence that still gets excited for this shlock.

Not to be that guy, but most WoW fans don't even know the actual story of the game. This is essentially an argument based off ignorance.

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Let's be real here, you've never had a pulse on me or any cogent point at all and are only mad because I'm ruining your safe space.

S'okay, just be honest about it instead of playing the midwit.

If you even wonder why you got banned, this is why. You've been at it saying weird shit about Warcraft (Some of it I agree with, most I do not agree with), and you're making fun of the Warcraft playerbase the moment they tell you to calm down and/or point out your hypocrisy. There are better ways of handling constructive criticism and refuting ones own arguments. Please be constructive with your points and logic once you're unbanned, and try not to act immature in a situation that clearly doesn't need to be this way.

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We're getting to "jumping the shark" territory at this point, and the quality of the story indicates as such. In general, you can tell when a franchise is jumping the shark when the do things like introduce time travel, jump to different planes of reality, the stakes in the story jump to astronomical levels, you bend previous stories to fit your new narrative, or start doing "cameo of the day" or bringing back dead fan favorites. WoW has done all of these, and it wouldn't be an issue if the consistency and quality was maintained... but it's not.

As I mentioned in another thread, some things are better left a mystery or unexplored. Why? Expanding into most of the list of things above allows you to hand-wave much of your established story/lore to expand/reset it, yet it is insanely hard to pull off well by even the most talented writers without damaging all your lore or writing yourself into corners. When it comes to WoW, the worst part is that the game itself is not enough to get a good understanding of what's going on, as it leaves so many gaps and inconsistencies that alternative sources (books, etc.) attempt to correct or fill in. That may look nice on paper for a franchise business model, but it's not good for the player of the game.

What's my prediction for 10.0? We're gonna jump the shark even further, so either jumping to another realm/timeline or having something insanely radical happen back in Azeroth. For 9.2 and beyond? I expect more cameos and "Ha! Everything you experienced in <current xpac, past xpac, past game, you get the idea> wasn't what it seemed! It was all part of the plan!"... although I guess 9.1 is doing this, so it's not that big of a stretch. For a humorous visual, imagine the heist episode of Rick and Morty: the WoW storyline will basically be the heist explanations.

I already explained my theory on what I think 10.0 will be about, so I'll just cut to the chase here and say we're not jumping the shark at all. TBC was full of Warhammer and Starcraft references, I'm shocked all of you guys are saying the franchise has jumped the shark NOW. Not before. NOW.

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Indeed. That's the distinction, I say -- it's a plot device, not the actual plot proper. An actual expansion focused of that theme would instead focus on it consistently throughout, serving not as a plot device to reach the story, but as a driving force all throughout.

Yeah, we don't need that though. Time travel is a touchy subject and at best, and it's best left dealt with as a plot-point for an expansion, rather than the main fucking plot of one.

TBC and Cataclysm are two perfect examples for this.

[huth]

I already explained my theory on what I think 10.0 will be about, so I'll just cut to the chase here and say we're not jumping the shark at all. TBC was full of Warhammer and Starcraft references, I'm shocked all of you guys are saying the franchise has jumped the shark NOW. Not before. NOW.

If you base it on forums, WoW has one and a half decade of non-stop shark jumping to look back to. Doesn't seem to have affected it much, though.