Florida passes bill asking students to disclose political affiliation

[uuuhname]

the gaslighting over the feigned "concern" with what we teach our kids is getting kind of ridiculous.

"oh??? you want to DO something??? well so did the Nazis!"

[Theodarzna]

Ah yes the "extremes" of...don't beat your children, don't let your children starve, and don't teach religion as science. Such extremes.

Ah, well of course. You always will ignore the point.

Yes...and? You're acting as if the only conclusion is that children must be kidnapped and forcefully reeducated,

I believe that is a conclusion of what you are saying. Hey, there are vast numbers of those big bad Trumpers, with kids, raising them to have bad views, to be religious, to not vote for the correct party. Why allow them any role at all? As you've articulated, parents could impart bad ideas to their kids and that is bad thing right?

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the gaslighting over the feigned "concern" with what we teach our kids is getting kind of ridiculous.

"oh??? you want to DO something??? well so did the Nazis!"

Only people talking about Germans are you guys, I'm referencing a specific American historical example and a policy and why the policy was carried out and wondering what separates you from that.

[Edge-]

Ah, well of course. You always will ignore the point.

What was the point I missed? Just because the native boarding schools existed doesn't mean that pushing for minimum standards in education overall necessarily leads to more boarding schools and not like...simply a better quality of education?

Is it the idea that we can quantify "good education" at all? That parents are never wrong in what they believe and their beliefs must all be treated as equally serious?

I believe that is a conclusion of what you are saying. Hey, there are vast numbers of those big bad Trumpers, with kids, raising them to have bad views, to be religious, to not vote for the correct party.

Except we're not discussing "Trump voters" overall, or people who are conservative. We're discussing specific ideas that these parents are pushing and you're backpedaling with gross overgeneralizations that none of us are actually making.

Why allow them any role at all? As you've articulated, parents could impart bad ideas to their kids and that is bad thing right?

Again, this is you making leaps in logic and conjuring up arguments that nobody has made. If you want to discuss them ask and I'm sure we can have plenty of productive discussions in the thread about it. Simply telling others what their arguments are, even if they're not actually making those arguments, doesn't leave much room for discussion beyond, "No, that's not what we believe and we have no idea where you even got that from."

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Only people talking about Germans are you guys, I'm referencing a specific American historical example and a policy and why the policy was carried out and wondering what separates you from that.

The desire isn't to "civilize the savages" and destroy what is an actual cultural identity, unless that cultural identity might be something like, "We're racist as fuck and the Klan is great!" in which case like...yeah, are you not on board with opposing Klan-based education? I assume yes, but I don't want to make that case for you.

None of us are denying it happened. None of us are denying it was awful. I think all of us are concerned about something so abhorrent happening again, but in the context of the current discussion that's a pretty extreme conclusion to jump to that presumes that we all just thought those boarding schools were grand.

Spoilers: Nobody here has said that yet, and I doubt anyone ever will.

[uuuhname]

Only people talking about Germans are you guys, I'm referencing a specific American historical example and a policy and why the policy was carried out and wondering what separates you from that.

w-what? your example isn't any less absurd than the one I used to make a point that you're not acting reasonably here. so I'll repeat myself: you want to do anything to change the material conditions of the world we live in? well so did the Nazis, NAZI.

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The desire isn't to "civilize the savages" and destroy what is an actual cultural identity, unless that cultural identity might be something like, "We're racist as fuck and the Klan is great!" in which case like...yeah, are you not on board with opposing Klan-based education? I assume yes, but I don't want to make that case for you.

None of us are denying it happened. None of us are denying it was awful. I think all of us are concerned about something so abhorrent happening again, but in the context of the current discussion that's a pretty extreme conclusion to jump to that presumes that we all just thought those boarding schools were grand.

Spoilers: Nobody here has said that yet, and I doubt anyone ever will.

I swear, wouldn't it be in line with CRT to point out how systemically the US and Canada tried to genocide the native population??? do we not want kids to know these things?

[Edge-]

I swear, wouldn't it be in line with CRT to point out how systemically the US and Canada tried to genocide the native population??? do we not want kids to know these things?

I think it's a pretty good thing for kids to learn the darker aspects of our history to ensure they can properly contextualize modern issues through that historical lens while remaining vigilant to ensure that we do not repeat the dreadful mistakes we have before. We've got an endless expanse of new awful mistakes to make, we don't need reruns.

[Endus]

Not relevant. I was asking, what was wrong with that policy if so many of you are staking out the position that parents only pollute children or taint them with bad ideas.

Literally no one has argued that. It's a straw man you invented to avoid having an honest discussion.

That is the same case made in favor of simply taking Native American children and the boarding school project. You are missing the point, probably to avoid the consequences of what it is you yourself are advocating. Your own stance is next door neighbors with the people who championed those boarding schools.

The obvious difference being that the actual position you're arguing against is an opposition to bigotry pushed by parents.

And your counter-example is a cultural genocide of Native American children fostered through bigotry.

You're missing the point that it's about bigotry in your rush to make up a bullshit story.

But I'm 90% sure you've got me on ignore, since I already stated this.

[Noxx79]

This is an odd one.

It feels like a bit of an overreach, or a "why do you care" situation.

This just seems to be the way the country is going; people having to disclose personal information or beliefs, much like the vaccine passports.

Let universities continue to be places with no diversity of thought, other alternatives will arise out of necessity.

Another person who has never been to a university.

[Endus]

Another person who has never been to a university.

It should be funny.

Their argument is "universities promote such great diversity of thought that some students start to see value in and support ideals and principles that have little to no basis in American society, and that means there's a lack of diversity of thought in universities!"

All those young socialists graduating from university is what diversity of thought looks like. Because there's conservatives being graduated too. Nobody cares if they're conservative. They care if A> they're unable to adequately justify their views in university work where justifying their position is a requirement of the assignment, or B> they're assholes about things.

And if either of those are core to "being conservative" to you, well, we've identified the problem.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Not much of a response there. But I thank you for the input.

Again, if parents are this malignant corrupting influence, what precisely then was wrong about the Boarding School System to you? Was it intrinsically wrong? If so why? If not? Was it only wrong because of who it targeted?

The boarding school thing is the weirdest strawman ever. That's your MO though, you pull out the most extreme "solutions" that you think liberals could possibly come up with and present it because you know it looks bad. There are much better solutions.

If parents want to indoctrinate their kids with counter-factual politically charged bullshit they can homeschool. Though I know parents who have tried that. Or rather, I know of people who ran away from home at age 14 because their parents were racist bigoted assholes who wanted to isolate their kids away from knowledge. That sometimes worked in the last century, but in the age of the internet you pretty much have to go full amish to keep them isolated away from knowledge.

In the 70s if your parents told you that Mexicans are violent rapists, they had no way to look that up. In the age of the internet, they can look that shit up. And unless they immerse themselves in 4chan or other right wing cesspools, they'll know its bs.

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Can we just clear a couple of things up?

"Parents are the problem" is something nobody is arguing. Bigots are the problem. Can we just start calling it like it is and saying bigots so that theo can stop pretending that we're talking about parents in general?

Two, presenting only the binary choice of "we must teach all kids about the 500 different conspiracy fueled conservative conspiracy theories" or "we must kidnap all children and indoctrinate them into liberals" is one of the dumbest strawmen "choices" of the month.

[Theodarzna]

The boarding school thing is the weirdest strawman ever. That's your MO though, you pull out the most extreme "solutions" that you think liberals could possibly come up with and present it because you know it looks bad. There are much better solutions.

Or, you don't like the implications, that you too favor politically charged indoctrination, just you know for your team, because you fight valiantly for your team, and your team is good and if someone isn't cheerleading for your team than they are evil incarnate.

"Parents are the problem" is something nobody is arguing.

AH, yes, of course, you'd never say that outright, or very few of you would. Your problem is with parents who aren't dutiful voters for your brand identity... I mean party. People whose views or cultural habits are not amicable to you and who are aesthetically unpleasant for whatever reason.

You guys define everyone outside of your clique as 'bigots', you might as well have said 'Look we aren't destroying the Middle East! We are just fighting terrorists! You aren't pro-terrorist are you!"

You guys do love your weaselly language tricks. And I do admire it, its a nice skill.

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That parents are never wrong in what they believe and their beliefs must all be treated as equally serious?

Again, right there, if families are not the arbiter of their kids upbringing than who is? Let's start there. I will be infinitely patient while I deal with being yanked around by all of this.

[Endus]

Or, you don't like the implications, that you too favor politically charged indoctrination, just you know for your team, because you fight valiantly for your team, and your team is good and if someone isn't cheerleading for your team than they are evil incarnate.

You're arguing against a straw man.

AH, yes, of course, you'd never say that outright, or very few of you would. Your problem is with parents who aren't dutiful voters for your brand identity... I mean party. People whose views or cultural habits are not amicable to you and who are aesthetically unpleasant for whatever reason.

It's pretty fascinating that you somehow identify our "side" as being isolationist and exclusive, while at the same time maligning that same "side" for things like "diversity" and "moral relativism" and "tolerance" and such.

It can't be both, y'see. They're directly contradictory.

You guys define everyone outside of your clique as 'bigots'

This isn't a thing that happens. This is just you playing the victim.

Again, right there, if families are not the arbiter of their kids upbringing than who is? Let's start there. I will be infinitely patient while I deal with being yanked around by all of this.

Ultimately? The State. That's why a parent is not entitled to beat their kids, or to lock them in the basement and feed them scraps, or use them as a sexual object, or sell them to the highest bidder, or refuse to send them to school and have them be educated. Parents can not choose those things, because they are crimes.

[Edge-]

Again, right there, if families are not the arbiter of their kids upbringing than who is? Let's start there. I will be infinitely patient while I deal with being yanked around by all of this.

Honestly, I'm not terribly inclined to engage in a line of discussion that begins with, "Academic standards don't exist and all education is wholly subjective and personal." as something that everyone tacitly agrees upon.

Because I don't.

[Combatbutler]

Oh my what could possibly go wrong .............

[Theodarzna]

Honestly, I'm not terribly inclined to engage in a line of discussion that begins with, "Academic standards don't exist and all education is wholly subjective and personal." as something that everyone tacitly agrees upon.

Because I don't.

Fine, then don't engage in the discussion. I'll let you go off and LARP like you totally were down to have a discussion.

If you believe sincerely there is an objective way to say teach history or literature (The areas that are the most caustic in these debates) then be my guest. I'm excited to hear this.

[Mayhem]

So the only thing wrong with the Boarding School System was the religious parts of the schools, not the taking children from families or any of the other stuff. You are just mad they didn't make them watch Sam Harris videos and read /r/atheism posts?

You don't know shit about this stuff, do you? Religion was the reason for these boarding schools and how they treated native Americans. You can't just ignore that part and keep lamenting about the power of the states.

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So far Mayhem's only objection was the CONTENT, not the actual practice itself.

It's like you can't understand a word I am saying. "Church's influence in politics" How did you come from that to "his only objection was the content".

Though it's a bit funny because yes, I also object to the content because their content was erasing native history.

Anyway, missionaries created the first boardings schools and the religious influence later created even more, there, maybe you can see the pattern, probably not.

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Again, right there, if families are not the arbiter of their kids upbringing than who is? Let's start there. I will be infinitely patient while I deal with being yanked around by all of this.

Ultimately? The State. That's why a parent is not entitled to beat their kids, or to lock them in the basement and feed them scraps, or use them as a sexual object, or sell them to the highest bidder, or refuse to send them to school and have them be educated. Parents can not choose those things, because they are crimes.

Let me bring this to her attention.

[Flarelaine]

Again, right there, if families are not the arbiter of their kids upbringing than who is? Let's start there. I will be infinitely patient while I deal with being yanked around by all of this.

Funny thing: our very own Viktor Orbán is touting that very same line ("it's the parents' business!") in the defence of his new homophobic law.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Funny thing: our very own Viktor Orbán is touting that very same line ("it's the parents' business!") in the defence of his new homophobic law.

As someone of faith I believe this line, however where that line ends is where whatever is being taught and been proven harmful. Plenty of other beliefs like my own and at the end of the day I believe in freedoms to worship and practice.

But there is always a line regardless to what divides us separately as communities or individuals.


So like all things like say Free Speech. there are exceptions.

[Endus]

As someone of faith I believe this line, however where that line ends is where whatever is being taught and been proven harmful. Plenty of other beliefs like my own and at the end of the day I believe in freedoms to worship and practice.

But there is always a line regardless to what divides us separately as communities or individuals.


So like all things like say Free Speech. there are exceptions.

Like with so many things, the actual position in basically every nation isn't actually that simple.

The more general rule is "it's the parent's business, unless their choices involve harming that child physically, mentally, or emotionally in any way, in which case the State can and should step in to stop the abusive parents from harming that child."

And pushing a bigoted and counterfactual ideology onto your kids qualifies.

[Powerogue]

There have been suggestions that universities who lean too far in one direction will get funding cut.

When we have a political party that has been actively dismissing as much of reality as possible, including things as basic as "vaccines work, get them." the solution is not "meet in the middle." Especially when they keep sliding further and further off the deep end by the year.

[Fugus]

Honestly, this would be one of the most self-defeating things possible.

Step 1: Student gets admitted partly because he is a conservative for an economics major.
Step 2: Student learns the actual tax code.
Step 3: Student stops being so conservative because the actual tax code is structured in a way that contradicts their pillar arguments.

Quite literally, unless Florida dumped all their classes that actually taught their children economics or thinking skills, just the fact of teaching their students would make them less conservative. Are they planning on turning Florida into the capital of learning about farming, framing houses, and automotive repair while ignoring anything else? Because even then, with cars becoming less mechanical in the coming years, that won't work too well. And the kids smart enough to learn how to work on the digital cars in the 2030's and beyond will also be smart enough to see through their crap if they take the time to learn.