"Pay to win"

[Magical Mudcrab]

To me, "winning" WoW is being among the top players of your class, beating the most difficult bosses as part of top 100, earning Gladiator and being first with having the latest, hardest-to-get shit because YOU played your way there.

Sorry, there's nothing you can buy in this game, official or through RMT, that'd make you a winner by my standards. Bags? A mount? Level 58? LOL! That's not "winning", that's fucking time-saving.

What? There were changes that needed to be done specifically for PvP this season because of people paying for boosts, and previous races to world first races have had massive controversies about guilds obtaining the edge by RMT (most recently, the Gallywix debacle). Your argument that there's nothing that can be done officially or via RMT to gain power or prestige is simply not correct. Additionally, attempting to dismiss the gains acquired by purchasing WoW tokens and exchanging them for gold or simply engaging in RMT by putting them alongside items purchasable in the WoW store (such as mounts) that do not have power gains tied to them is pretty blatantly a bad faith move.

[Relapses]

The commonly accepted definition - literally the one you will find if you google the definition. Do it, just google "pay to win" and you wont even have to click the links if you dont want to - its all right there in the google preview.

Do you not understand that the problem I have with your argument is that you're telling people to "google its definition"? If you have to rely on people defining the word for themselves then you also have to understand that maybe, just maybe, there isn't exactly a 100% universally accepted definition for it.

[arkanon]

It's not wrong. Go looking through gaming forums in the past, and you will see how the phrase was used in the past. This also isn't like people trying to use a harmful word "because back in my day". P2W isn't an actual word, it's a sentiment that people ascribe to the actions of companies. Different people feel differently about P2W, and part of that can be because of the way they were introduced to it.

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If you go reading through gaming forums/reddit, you will find discussions on P2W over the years. There's even some around 5-6 yrs ago that shine a light on the evolution of the phrase, where people started to use it more like you do. This was when AAA games were pushing the boundaries on what they could get you to pay for. The way you see P2W is wrong, just different than how those like me do.

No you are not understanding - if someone is using an outdated and incorrect definition of the term, that's 100% on THEM, they are WRONG, and need to update their understanding of the term. Or do you rock up to the dealer and say "good day sir, please show me your finest horseless carriage" and then get upset when they ask "do you mean a car?"

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Do you not understand that the problem I have with your argument is that you're telling people to "google its definition"? If you have to rely on people defining the word for themselves then you also have to understand that maybe, just maybe, there isn't exactly a 100% universally accepted definition for it.

Wait, so because a few people are ignorant of the correct definition of the term, everyone else should adjust their correct understanding of the term to allow the incorrect people to feel like they are correct? Holy shit man, and you talk about mental gymnastics.....The only people I am telling to google the definition are the tiny minority insisting on using made up definitions, or outdated definitions.

Yet another very poor argument - not once have i said "everyone needs to google the definition of this word to even understand its meaning!" I am telling those who are very, VERY wrong that they can easily google the term to clear up their misunderstanding.

[themaster24]

Clash of clans came out in 2012 and fits your time frame. You could buy gems to speed up progress that would otherwise take up to 2 weeks to advance. You could level up without them but, it becomes quite the chore. How is that different that a level boost? Is Clash of Clans not P2W?

The fundamental difference, like I mentioned in my first post, is that WoW doesn't stop you and tell you "Hey, you've run out of quest energy. If you would like to continue turning in quests, please wait 2 hours or spend $2.50 to unlock 50 more quest energy." Games like Clash literally stopped you from playing their game unless you waited or paid.

While leveling in the Vanilla/TBC era can be a chore itself, you aren't constrained in those ways. You can level faster if you have a group of friends and can run dungeons. Your friends can boost you or you can pay for boosts. I saw level raid geared blood elves the Friday after the TBCC prepatch dropped, for example.

[Relapses]

No you are not understanding - if someone is using an outdated and incorrect definition of the term, that's 100% on THEM, they are WRONG, and need to update their understanding of the term. Or do you rock up to the dealer and say "good day sir, please show me your finest horseless carriage" and then get upset when they ask "do you mean a car?"

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Wait, so because a few people are ignorant of the correct definition of the term, everyone else should adjust their correct understanding of the term to allow the incorrect people to feel like they are correct? Holy shit man, and you talk about mental gymnastics.....The only people I am telling to google the definition are the tiny minority insisting on using made up definitions, or outdated definitions.

Yet another very poor argument - not once have i said "everyone needs to google the definition of this word to even understand its meaning!" I am telling those who are very, VERY wrong that they can easily google the term to clear up their misunderstanding.

In other words, your definition is right and anybody who uses the word in any connotation that you disagree with is wrong. There's a word for this...what is it again? Oh right... semant- nah, not worth it.

[arkanon]

In other words, your definition is right and anybody who uses the word in any connotation that you disagree with is wrong. There's a word for this...what is it again? Oh right... semant- nah, not worth it.

Its not MY definition - its the commonly accepted definition in the industry, and you can easily see that by simply typing into google "pay to win" - this simple act will clear this all up for you, and yet you refuse to do it, why?

[Magical Mudcrab]

Or do you rock up to the dealer and say "good day sir, please show me your finest horseless carriage" and then get upset when they ask "do you mean a car?"

No, that is not analogous to what is happening. What you're doing is coming in and saying "I want to talk about cars", someone else is saying "Let's talk about cars", and during the conversation you're saying "That's not what a car is" and then proceed to not describe what a car is to you. It is not 100% on someone else to know what your specific understanding of a term is. Conversations are held between multiple people and it is on each member to be able to describe what they mean; you need to be able to articulate what your understanding of P2W is, especially given that what is considered P2W is typically community-specific.

[Relapses]

Its not MY definition - its the commonly accepted definition in the industry, and you can easily see that by simply typing into google "pay to win" - this simple act will clear this all up for you, and yet you refuse to do it, why?

I've already told you why and I don't feel like repeating myself.

[arkanon]

No, that is not analogous to what is happening. What you're doing is coming in and saying "I want to talk about cars", someone else is saying "Let's talk about cars", and during the conversation you're saying "That's not what a car is" and then proceed to not describe what a car is to you. It is not 100% on someone else to know what your specific understanding of a term is. Conversations are held between multiple people and it is on each member to be able to describe what they mean; you need to be able to articulate what your understanding of P2W is, especially given that what is considered P2W is typically community-specific.

Again, it is not MY definition, or MY understanding - it is the definition commonly accepted and used in the industry.

[themaster24]

No you are not understanding - if someone is using an outdated and incorrect definition of the term, that's 100% on THEM, they are WRONG, and need to update their understanding of the term. Or do you rock up to the dealer and say "good day sir, please show me your finest horseless carriage" and then get upset when they ask "do you mean a car?"

P2W doesn't have a definitive definition. Notice how it has no official definition in any dictionary? The only time you might see it on a dictionary website is when it's been submitted to one of their "anyone can submit a thing" sections. What you will find, however, is the more recent usages of the phrase, because that's how google works.

Again, like I said, this isn't like me walking up to someone and calling them a bundle of sticks and saying it's cool, because in the 1920's we totally said that and it was totally fine. This is a term created by gamers, and gamers will invariably have different associations to it based on how they came to know that phrase. There's not really a right or wrong way to use the phrase. There's ways that align with how we perceive the phrase, but that's it.

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No, that is not analogous to what is happening. What you're doing is coming in and saying "I want to talk about cars", someone else is saying "Let's talk about cars", and during the conversation you're saying "That's not what a car is" and then proceed to not describe what a car is to you. It is not 100% on someone else to know what your specific understanding of a term is. Conversations are held between multiple people and it is on each member to be able to describe what they mean; you need to be able to articulate what your understanding of P2W is, especially given that what is considered P2W is typically community-specific.

The bolded is an incredibly fantastic point as well. Different communities find different things to be P2W. Some game communities are fine with things that others would call the ultimate P2W sin. This only further reinforces the fact that different people view P2W differently.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Again, it is not MY definition, or MY understanding - it is the definition commonly accepted and used in the industry.

Then describe it. If you have an understanding of it that they do not, you need to demonstrate this by providing them what it means, preferably with reference as you are stating that the definition you use is common throughout the industry. If you're not willing to do that then you're doing little more than distracting from the topic at hand.

[korijenkins]

Getting a single character to level 58 is not "winning" WoW.

That is all.

Any service that lets you bypass content for real money is pay to win. That's not even debatable.

WoW quickly devolved into one of the most pay to win games in existence with the selling of gold for $.

[arkanon]

The bolded is an incredibly fantastic point as well. Different communities find different things to be P2W. Some game communities are fine with things that others would call the ultimate P2W sin. This only further reinforces the fact that different people view P2W differently.

OOPS! you made a BIG mistake here - you implied that all P2W features are viewed negatively - that everyone thinks P2W is bad. That is not the case at all - countless people in this very thread have said "yes, its P2W, but I think its a good feature to have in the game".

[Relapses]

Any service that lets you bypass content for real money is pay to win. That's not even debatable.

WoW quickly devolved into one of the most pay to win games in existence with the selling of gold for $.

And as we all know, before the WoW token nobody ever bought gold with real life money. They also never used the gold they bought with real money to boost their characters. This is all Blizzard's doing!

[Daymanmb]

The fundamental difference, like I mentioned in my first post, is that WoW doesn't stop you and tell you "Hey, you've run out of quest energy. If you would like to continue turning in quests, please wait 2 hours or spend $2.50 to unlock 50 more quest energy." Games like Clash literally stopped you from playing their game unless you waited or paid.

While leveling in the Vanilla/TBC era can be a chore itself, you aren't constrained in those ways. You can level faster if you have a group of friends and can run dungeons. Your friends can boost you or you can pay for boosts. I saw level raid geared blood elves the Friday after the TBCC prepatch dropped, for example.

Youre nit picking now.. and youre forcing me to go into FIFA Ultimate Team 2010. That game would let you win coins by playing competitive matches and with the coins, you could buy better players to make your team better. The best players would cost millions of coins, however. You could grind that out, or buy coins. There was nothing stopping you from playing as much as you want to get the coins. Now, because FIFA didnt stop you from playing, does that mean FIFA wasnt P2W?

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No, that is not analogous to what is happening. What you're doing is coming in and saying "I want to talk about cars", someone else is saying "Let's talk about cars", and during the conversation you're saying "That's not what a car is" and then proceed to not describe what a car is to you. It is not 100% on someone else to know what your specific understanding of a term is. Conversations are held between multiple people and it is on each member to be able to describe what they mean; you need to be able to articulate what your understanding of P2W is, especially given that what is considered P2W is typically community-specific.

Roles are reversed here. Its incredible that you dont see that.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Roles are reversed here. Its incredible that you dont see that.

As far as I have seen, and I am willing to admit I am wrong if I have missed something, at no point has arkanon adequately described P2W. Them telling people to Google what P2W is and alluding to themselves using an industry definition and then not providing reference to that definition is not productive. Even going back 10 pages they were doing the exact same thing, alluding to sources, using these uncited sources as proof, and then acting as though something productive has been said.

It's one thing to have a back-and-forth disagreeing about the specifics of what P2W is, as that's something that people can discuss and contribute to. It's another thing to claim to have some degree of authority (either through experience or sources) without providing proof and then to derail conversations for tens of pages. That kind of behavior calls the individual and people defending their behavior into question, and makes you wonder if they are operating in good faith. This is why I've asked them to cite the sources they're referring to and to articulate what they believe P2W is, it's entirely possible that they do have sources and if they provide (credible) industry sources that describe P2W in terms that contradict what other posters believe, and if they do that puts many arguments to bed.

[Jinpachi]

Do you go around and insult everybody because "they don't pay your bill"?

Only on Tuesdays. The rest of the time I just slap them.

[themaster24]

OOPS! you made a BIG mistake here - you implied that all P2W features are viewed negatively - that everyone thinks P2W is bad. That is not the case at all - countless people in this very thread have said "yes, its P2W, but I think its a good feature to have in the game".

I did not imply that at all lol. I simply said different communities view P2W differently. One game community might find something acceptable that another game community would decry as the death of a game.

Youre nit picking now.. and youre forcing me to go into FIFA Ultimate Team 2010. That game would let you win coins by playing competitive matches and with the coins, you could buy better players to make your team better. The best players would cost millions of coins, however. You could grind that out, or buy coins. There was nothing stopping you from playing as much as you want to get the coins. Now, because FIFA didnt stop you from playing, does that mean FIFA wasnt P2W?

Not nitpicking. It's about how the game is designed. FUT and Clash (and games like them) are designed around finely calculated timegated grinds by the company that exist to pressure you into paying extra. WoW leveling is not. In WoW, all the control is in your hands. There's no external force in WoW manipulating you. I presume you thought I was making the "but you can grind the same thing by playing" argument, which isn't what I'm doing. You have the means in WoW to level normal, slower, or faster. There is no artificial control over your leveling.

[Daymanmb]

Not nitpicking. It's about how the game is designed. FUT and Clash (and games like them) are designed around finely calculated timegated grinds by the company that exist to pressure you into paying extra. WoW leveling is not. In WoW, all the control is in your hands. There's no external force in WoW manipulating you. I presume you thought I was making the "but you can grind the same thing by playing" argument, which isn't what I'm doing. You have the means in WoW to level normal, slower, or faster. There is no artificial control over your leveling.

Youre nit picking again... how something was initially designed is irrelevant and inconsequential to the point. Getting to 58 in WoW can take a really long time and now theres a way to pay to skip that, like paying to skip the grind in FIFA. Whether or not WoW was designed to be P2W is a non-sequitur, bc it is now...

You claim you were arguing in good faith, but youre clearly not.

[themaster24]

Youre nit picking again... how something was initially designed is irrelevant and inconsequential to the point. Getting to 58 in WoW can take a really long time and now theres a way to pay to skip that, like paying to skip the grind in FIFA. Whether or not WoW was designed to be P2W is a non-sequitur, bc it is now...

You claim you were arguing in good faith, but youre clearly not.

I don't see that as nitpicking. You can level significantly faster in WoW through a variety of means because the game doesn't actively prevent you from playing or leveling. Those other games actively inhibit your ability to progress and then sell you the solution. That's a fundamental difference to me, and where our difference in opinion on what makes something P2W comes in.

You want to talk about arguing in good faith, but you close out your rebuttal with the bolded part, where you show you are unwilling to see things from a different perspective. Also, I never said any comment about arguing in good or bad faith