Page 13 of 15 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
14
15
LastLast
  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    r/thathappened

    And anyway, it's still a strawman since no one is arguing in favor of instructors being able to baselessly speculate on their subject matter, is not a demonstration that CRT or anything of that sort is "political", or that what isn't taught already isn't inherently political itself.
    I'm not touching CRT with a ten foot pole on this forum but some courses are inherently political to some extent I just dont see any benefit to dragging more politics into it. My advice would be if your professor expresses communists views act like a communist. Capitalistic views be a capitalist,etc. Get your piece of paper and then be what you want to be.

  2. #242
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I'm not touching CRT with a ten foot pole on this forum but some courses are inherently political to some extent I just dont see any benefit to dragging more politics into it.
    You've yet to define exactly what makes something "political", once again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #243
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,909
    Then you're moving goalposts, because I've made this pretty clear, as does the principles of CRT. Let's go through this short step by short step.

    Do you disagree that there is systemic racism at play in the USA?

    Do you disagree that this systemic imbalance has affected the way laws have been written and enforced throughout the USA?

    If you agree with both of those, then you agree with CRT's base principles.

    I will pre-emptively note that there are observable demographic divides between white and black Americans (and other groups, as well). The only explanations for this boil down to three options; that the differences are natural, that they are the product of direct prejudice, or that they are systemic in nature. The first explanation there is directly racist. The second is bold, and largely debunkable anyway. And the third is an acknowledgement of systemic issues, which leads to CRT.

    "White supremacy" does not have to mean white-hot burning hate for black people. All it takes is supporting a systemically discriminatory system which advantages white people. Which the USA pretty much objectively is. If you deny that the system is responsible for the variance in outcomes, you're condemning those who have lower success rates for those failures, rather than the system which treats them differently. I really don't give a damn if the person expressing this view is white or black, themselves. If you think that should change my assessment of their position, I have to wonder, why? It's not that I'm dismissing "black voices", I'm dismissing these individuals, because their claims don't hold up to scrutiny.

    I'll also note that some brief Googling brought me to this letter sent by Glenn Loury, one of the two in your linked vlog, where he slammed his university's administration for a statement against systemic racism in the immediate aftermath of the George Floyd killings, where Loury slams "social justice warriors" and dismisses the idea of systemic racism pretty much wholesale. He attacks the university administration as being like the Soviets, makes wild assumptions as to what conspiracy is behind the statement issued, and so forth. It's just really fuckin' weird, and he's pretty hypocritical throughout the whole thing, condemning a statement of support.

    Conflating disagreement with CRT as being the same as white supremacy, and uncritical acceptance of CRT as a pre-requisite for not being a racist, do you actually believe this? I know you are a true believer, but I can never tell if this is being used as a rhetorical device to shut people up, or a true expression of opinion (the latter genuinely worries me if so).
    I think that denying the effects of systemic racism upon American (and other nations, but contextually, we're talking the USA) society, supporting those discriminatory differences as they exist in the status quo, that's "white supremacy". That's all it takes.

    Rejecting CRT's central theses pretty much inevitably requires such a denial. There are some narrow criticisms one can make with CRT without doing so, but those are largely academic, and I don't see those arguments coming out of people's mouths when they rant against CRT.

    I know you cannot see this, or accept this, but there are many people who look at this stuff and see something akin to a cult in the way it carries itself, including a refusal for self reflection.
    This is, fundamentally, an ad hominem attack. You resort to attacking the character of those who support CRT, rather than anything to do with CRT itself.

    There are valid criticisms to be made of any theory, never mind this, also groups and certain prophets aligned to this theory.
    Criticisms, sure. But that would take the form of arguments against a specific premise behind CRT, opening the floor to discussing the merits of that premise. Not disputing CRT wholesale. That's political, not academic.


  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    You've yet to define exactly what makes something "political", once again.
    I assumed I didn't need to as it's usually self evident. Adding on political subtext to old works like trying to draw links to current political hot button issues like abortion or gay rights from early modern literature is the breed and butter of art courses here.

  5. #245
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I'm not touching CRT with a ten foot pole on this forum but some courses are inherently political to some extent I just dont see any benefit to dragging more politics into it. My advice would be if your professor expresses communists views act like a communist. Capitalistic views be a capitalist,etc. Get your piece of paper and then be what you want to be.
    I seriously have to wonder if people like yourself have ever been to university.

    I've written plenty of papers taking critical positions of something that was expressed in class. Usually a fairly specific analysis, since you can't debunk capitalist theory adequately in a 10- or 20-page paper and expect to be taken seriously; you'd need a doctoral thesis to even start. I'd get good marks, even if the prof disagreed and had criticisms. Because I was marked for how well I supported my thesis, not for some ideological lockstep.

    If a professor have you a bad grade for ideological disagreement rather than just shitty writing or something, you'd have a slam-dunk case to go to the academic standards board over, at any university out there. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but if you aren't willing to contest the grading on academic standards, then you're pretty much admitting you deserved the shitty grade you got, and that the grade had nothing to do with political disagreement between you and the professor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I assumed I didn't need to as it's usually self evident. Adding on political subtext to old works like trying to draw links to current political hot button issues like abortion or gay rights from early modern literature is the breed and butter of art courses here.
    That subtext exists. Homosexuality didn't just spring up out of nowhere in the latter half of the 20th Century. It's been around as long as humanity has been. And fiction is an expression shaped by the culture which created it, which allows that piece of literature to be examined in that context.

    That's basic literary analysis.


  6. #246
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I assumed I didn't need to as it's usually self evident. Adding on political subtext to old works
    Isn't what CRT or anything Florida's ridiculous political affiliation law is trying to address. Cut it out with the strawman arguments.

    like trying to draw links to current political hot button issues like abortion or gay rights from early modern literature is the breed and butter of art courses here.
    1) No they aren't.
    2) As we all know gay people were invented in the late modern period and people didn't have abortions prior to the invention of gay people either. /s

    This is what I mean when calling something "political" is a nonsense criticism because "political" in this case just refers to shit acknowledging that minority demographics existed before 1969.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I seriously have to wonder if people like yourself have ever been to university.

    I've written plenty of papers taking critical positions of something that was expressed in class. Usually a fairly specific analysis, since you can't debunk capitalist theory adequately in a 10- or 20-page paper and expect to be taken seriously; you'd need a doctoral thesis to even start. I'd get good marks, even if the prof disagreed and had criticisms. Because I was marked for how well I supported my thesis, not for some ideological lockstep.

    If a professor have you a bad grade for ideological disagreement rather than just shitty writing or something, you'd have a slam-dunk case to go to the academic standards board over, at any university out there. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but if you aren't willing to contest the grading on academic standards, then you're pretty much admitting you deserved the shitty grade you got, and that the grade had nothing to do with political disagreement between you and the professor.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That subtext exists. Homosexuality didn't just spring up out of nowhere in the latter half of the 20th Century. It's been around as long as humanity has been. And fiction is an expression shaped by the culture which created it, which allows that piece of literature to be examined in that context.

    That's basic literary analysis.
    Most of the time you are correct but my degree was in engineering I didn't have the drive nor investment needed to challenge the system as I only require 4-6 are credit hours total for my degree ( I would have to actively dig up my transcripts to check). I had one argument over a paper I can recall. It was an intro course on literature. The paper in question was on an examination of " death of a salesman " I didn't refer to the flash backs within a flash back by the proper naming convention the professor insisted on and he attempted to knock an entire letter grade of my paper for it. I argued it back and threatened to take him to the board ( not put as eloquently granted) to change it but I never felt it worth the time to chance it.

    I imagine if I had a different discipline I would of been more invested in the matter but truth be told I was just doig the bare minimum to fulfill an arbitrary requirement for my degree.

  8. #248
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I didn't refer to the flash backs within a flash back by the proper naming convention the professor insisted on and he attempted to knock an entire letter grade of my paper for it
    Probably because the definition of analepsis was literally on the syllabus but you couldn't be bothered to use it. Just a guess, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Probably because the definition of analepsis was literally on the syllabus but you couldn't be bothered to use it. Just a guess, lol.
    Could very well of been. I admit my younger self wasn't thrilled to be in a class that even now I consider a absolute waste of my time and money. I didn't even read the book in question simply read the summary off spark notes. I have no idea why they tag on art requirements to stem degrees beyond trying to nickle and dime students.

  10. #250
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Could very well of been. I admit my younger self wasn't thrilled to be in a class that even now I consider a absolute waste of my time and money. I didn't even read the book in question simply read the summary off spark notes. I have no idea why they tag on art requirements to stem degrees beyond trying to nickle and dime students.
    Mainly because the entire point of collegiate education is developing critical thinking which the liberal arts tend to be very good at, rather than hyperfocusing on which disciplines are most useful to capitalism (speaking of political motivation in education, lul).
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Mainly because the entire point of collegiate education is developing critical thinking which the liberal arts tend to be very good at, rather than hyperfocusing on which disciplines are most useful to capitalism (speaking of political motivation in education).
    I always thought it was simply intellectual materbation rather then critical thinking. If they truely had critical thinking skills they would transfer to a study that would switch to developing skills desired by capitalism then pursue their more flowery studies once they achieved a comfortable livelihood.

  12. #252
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    If they truely had critical thinking skills they would transfer to a study that would switch to developing skills desired by capitalism
    And maybe if you'd taken more liberal arts classes you'd understand that critical thinking is by and far the most desired skill for most professions in a late industrial economy where employment is largely unspecialized.

    Which has fuck all to do with you complaining about people being political in education while continually deflecting every time you're asked to define what makes something political, to boot. Lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    And maybe if you'd taken more liberal arts classes you'd understand that critical thinking is by and far the most desired skill for most professions in a late industrial economy where employment is largely unspecialized.
    I just hyper specialized in a trade with less then two hundred practitioners in my country and made millions.

    There is critical thinking then there is critical thinking as they say..

  14. #254
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I just hyper specialized in a trade with less then two hundred practitioners in my country and made millions.
    Okay? Not seeing what this has to do with your claims of nonexistent politicization in the classroom. Lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Okay? Not seeing what this has to do with your claims of nonexistent politicization in the classroom. Lol.
    I admit we got rather off topic. I'm drawing from personal experience while your talking in more general terms. The point I was trying to make is I see no benefit in further adding politics into the classroom as there is alreadly more there then I feel needed.

  16. #256
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I admit we got rather off topic. I'm drawing from personal experience while your talking in more general terms. The point I was trying to make is I see no benefit in further adding politics into the classroom as there is alreadly more there then I feel needed.
    Which, again, isn't a point since you've continually evaded explaining what makes something political.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  17. #257
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ziltoidia 9
    Posts
    19,451
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I just hyper specialized in a trade with less then two hundred practitioners in my country and made millions.

    There is critical thinking then there is critical thinking as they say..
    I love MMO-Champion Millionaires. We have sooo many! It's almost unbelievable.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Which, again, isn't a point since you've continually evaded explaining what makes something political.
    It isn't an intention evasion I assure you rather it's an awkward topic to pin down. I've had themes be read into so hard in classical literature that it came off as parody but was instead taught as a valid interpretation. The problem is arts is all about interpretation so while it all seems redicoulsy convoluted to me others would argue that is the point.

  19. #259
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It isn't an intention evasion I assure you rather it's an awkward topic to pin down.
    It really isn't.

    It's a simple answer, and that answer is that everything to do with humans as a group in a practical sense is inherently political on some level. Complaining about "bringing politics into the classroom" is and always has been a dogwhistle for discussion of subject matter that some group of reactionaries deem unsavory because discussing it might call the status quo into question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    I love MMO-Champion Millionaires. We have sooo many! It's almost unbelievable.
    Well I'm talking gross over a decade it's not actually a million to many parasites taxing poor old me for that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    It really isn't.

    It's a simple answer, and that answer is that everything to do with humans as a group in a practical sense is inherently political on some level. Complaining about "bringing politics into the classroom" is and always has been a dogwhistle for discussion of subject matter that some group of reactionaries deem unsavory because discussing it might call the status quo into question.
    I agree with you completely barring the last sentance. Even when it isn't bringing into question the status quo it can be tedious and annoying.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •