Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    I don't see that as nitpicking. You can level significantly faster in WoW through a variety of means because the game doesn't actively prevent you from playing or leveling. Those other games actively inhibit your ability to progress and then sell you the solution. That's a fundamental difference to me, and where our difference in opinion on what makes something P2W comes in.

    You want to talk about arguing in good faith, but you close out your rebuttal with the bolded part, where you show you are unwilling to see things from a different perspective. Also, I never said any comment about arguing in good or bad faith
    For the second time, FIFA doesnt prevent you from playing or leveling, nor does it inhibit your ability to progress.. So, by your own measure, FIFA 2010 is not P2W, is what youre saying? Im just trying to establish a baseline and youre going back and forth on me.

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Strange, I didn't recall my character creation starting the toon as a lv 58 ready to walk through the portal.
    In 2006. This is the classic version of the game which is selling itself on the nostalgia of Outland, not the nostalgia of adventuring through Azeroth.

    But whatever. Nuance is meaningless, black and white thinking, etc.

  3. #963
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    WoW quickly devolved into one of the most pay to win games in existence with the selling of gold for $.
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    the most pay to win games in existence
    How to spot someone who has never actually played REAL pay2win games, the kind that outright let you purchase items/equips that are better than anything you can get ingame

    lmao

  4. #964
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    In 2006. This is the classic version of the game which is selling itself on the nostalgia of Outland, not the nostalgia of adventuring through Azeroth.

    But whatever. Nuance is meaningless, black and white thinking, etc.
    I am going to repeat this for the 3rd time by now:
    Then why doesn't everyone start at 58?

  5. #965
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    How to spot someone who has never actually played REAL pay2win games, the kind that outright let you purchase items/equips that are better than anything you can get ingame

    lmao
    Some recent examples? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but im sure there is some examples. Surely!

    I mean im sure there are some shocking indie games or browser based stuff, but i cant think of anything AAA or even AA
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-07-01 at 08:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  6. #966
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    For the second time, FIFA doesnt prevent you from playing or leveling, nor does it inhibit your ability to progress.. So, by your own measure, FIFA 2010 is not P2W, is what youre saying? Im just trying to establish a baseline and youre going back and forth on me.
    FUT inhibits your ability to have a very strong team (progress) by keeping the best players behind packs, which give random rewards. Packs are also tiered, such that many of the best players come out of increasingly expensive or special packs. The odds for getting the cards that players want is incredibly low. This article puts it clearly into perspective: Putting EA's claim "you can acquire all items without spending money" in FIFA Ultimate Team to the test

    This is nothing like WoW. You need a very literal amount of XP to level and generally speaking, that doesn't really change. You can clearly and easily predetermine your route to getting to 58, 60, 70, etc. WoW isn't taking any steps to actively slow you down, it's not asking you to open a chest to for a 1/100 chance to level up. You just get the required xp and you level.

    The baseline for me is, games like Clash and FUT actively create artificial barriers to your progress, be it recharging energy that you can bypass with money, progression based loot boxes with horrendous drop rates that you can circumvent by paying enough money, or equipment. They have gone out of their way to create a problem just so they can sell you the solution, over and over again. This creates whales who have paid to get so far ahead of those who aren't paying that they are typically beyond reach of non-paying players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Some recent examples? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but im sure there is some examples. Surely!

    I mean im sure there are some shocking indie games or browser based stuff, but i cant think of anything AAA or even AA
    Trion was selling gear in the Rift store well before they sold the game off to some random dev to let them milk it a bit more. They were also selling you progress for their various Legendary/Artifact quests so you could skip some of the grind. Heck, Trion even did their own "Classic" (Rift Prime) before Classic WoW was a thing, and one of the main selling points was no cash shop.

    Black Desert Online is another major MMO that's heavily P2W. I'm not sure what it's like now, but when I tried it, I don't recall directly selling gear, but the shop sold you the ways to get the gear without having to grind (think selling you the components needed to craft gear).
    Last edited by themaster24; 2021-07-02 at 10:50 AM.

  7. #967
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Strange, I didn't recall my character creation starting the toon as a lv 58 ready to walk through the portal. There was no option to pay for it back then either, how peculiar. At the end of the day, both leveling, rep grinds and attunements were very much the "tbc experience". The current boost will net you hours not having to level. If they offered attunements for $10, it would practically be of little difference in the result. Both are there to save a time gate.



    Can't buy gold (yet) in Classic with irl money.
    Yes and it remains pure and not pay to win because of that, of course people can break tos to buy gold, but they risk account action.

  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    Any service that lets you bypass content for real money is pay to win. That's not even debatable.

    WoW quickly devolved into one of the most pay to win games in existence with the selling of gold for $.
    The problem with this definition is it's simplicity makes it useless, buying a new skin in a game is considered the same as buying items that grant invincibility or allow you to do double damage.

    Mechwarrior Online allows you to save up for Battlemechs using in-game cash. You can also buy MWCredits with real money to get them. There are Champion Mechs you can only get with real money that give you a bonus to cash and XP grinding. There are also Hero Mechs with the same bonuses as Champions as well as unique configurations that can potentially make the Mech best in class.

    So what is pay-2-win here? Personally I think that paying to skip the grind for a new Mech isn't an issue, if someone has more spare cash than time they can swap one for the other no problem. The Champion Mechs are a different issue, you definitely get an advantage but it really only reduces grind so to me it's more like paying for convenience.

    The Hero Mechs are another matter altogether. While the devs have done a good job of mostly making sure they are quirky without being OP, but with a constantly shifting meta one could easily end up top-dog which I would consider a pay-2-win Mech.

    On the other hand you would consider all the options to be pay-2-win regardless of whether it increases your in-game performance. It just seems silly to distort a phrase to remove any sort of nuance, but then again we live in a world where people use the word "literally" to mean its opposite and then have nothing to use when they are being literal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    For the second time, FIFA doesnt prevent you from playing or leveling, nor does it inhibit your ability to progress.. So, by your own measure, FIFA 2010 is not P2W, is what youre saying? Im just trying to establish a baseline and youre going back and forth on me.
    Can you unlock all the players in FIFA without paying any real cash? How many hours of play would it take an average player, is the time shorter for a skilled player?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Some recent examples? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but im sure there is some examples. Surely!

    I mean im sure there are some shocking indie games or browser based stuff, but i cant think of anything AAA or even AA
    Yeah it's mostly browser, mobile and indie based stuff that lets you buy your way to victory, pay-2-win doesn't have a strong presence in AAA or AA development.

    Old examples I can think of from the top of my head are RIFT selling extra gear slots and World of Tanks gold (armour piercing) ammo.

  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I am going to repeat this for the 3rd time by now:
    Then why doesn't everyone start at 58?
    Because most people going into TBC are already leveled in Classic? Think, Kralljin. Think.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    Trion was selling gear in the Rift store well before they sold the game off to some random dev to let them milk it a bit more. They were also selling you progress for their various Legendary/Artifact quests so you could skip some of the grind.
    This is 100% what I think when I think "P2W" in a MMO. Hell, even Wildstar had a cash shop like this at the end. WoW has never had a cash shop for gear or attunements or items beyond cosmetics or "boost to the level of the new xpac so I can play with friends" powers.

    Heck, one large segment of the cosmetics: gender swapping is now built into the game.

  10. #970
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    Because most people going into TBC are already leveled in Classic? Think, Kralljin. Think.
    So, what about my new characters?

    When i create them on a TBC server, then i don't create them to clear Molten Core.

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    So, what about my new characters?

    When i create them on a TBC server, then i don't create them to clear Molten Core.
    Then get yourself a boost, or spend the time leveling. Either way, it's not "winning".

  12. #972
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    FUT inhibits your ability to have a very strong team (progress) by keeping the best players behind packs, which give random rewards. Packs are also tiered, such that many of the best players come out of increasingly expensive or special packs. The odds for getting the cards that players want is incredibly low. This article puts it clearly into perspective: Putting EA's claim "you can acquire all items without spending money" in FIFA Ultimate Team to the test
    You're getting off track, I think intentionally. Im talking 2010, not now. The time frame where you said these practices were different. Your link is from 2021 lol.

  13. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    Then get yourself a boost, or spend the time leveling.
    Thanks for admitting that 1-58 is actually part of TBC unless you are willing to pay Blizzard money.

    You're not refuting any arguments here, you're just stating the obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    Either way, it's not "winning".
    Repeating it doesn't make it true.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-02 at 08:05 PM.

  14. #974
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Thanks for admitting that 1-58 is actually part of TBC unless you are willing to pay Blizzard money.

    You're not refuting any arguments here, you're just stating the obvious.

    Repeating it doesn't make it true.
    You don't really understand what an "admission" is, but being so desperate to "win" you'll just claim victory for reasons.

  15. #975
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    You don't really understand what an "admission" is
    You said leveling cannot be bypassed unless you purchase the boost, hence it's part of TBC.

    If it wasn't part of TBC, you could bypass it without purchasing anything outside of a sub.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    but being so desperate to "win" you'll just claim victory for reasons.
    I don't know, i'm not the one that randomnly throws in "it's not pay to win" in there like some mantra.

  16. #976
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You said leveling cannot be bypassed unless you purchase the boost, hence it's part of TBC.

    If it wasn't part of TBC, you could bypass it without purchasing anything outside of a sub.

    I don't know, i'm not the one that randomnly throws in "it's not pay to win" in there like some mantra.
    It doesn't help that you're one of three or four posters in this thread who seem to want to challenge anybody who dares have an interpretation of the concept of Pay2Win that doesn't 100% line up with what you think it means. It's the same semantic argument copied and pasted ad infinitum.

  17. #977
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It doesn't help that you're one of three or four posters in this thread who seem to want to challenge anybody who dares have an interpretation of the concept of Pay2Win that doesn't 100% line up with what you think it means.
    It doesn't help that most people keep arguing that 1-58 isn't part of TBC, yet keep dodging why everyone doesn't get free 58's then.

    Pointing out to "level or buy a boost then" is one of the dumbest arguments made in this discussion.

  18. #978
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It doesn't help that most people keep arguing that 1-58 isn't part of TBC, yet keep dodging why everyone doesn't get free 58's then.

    Pointing out to "level or buy a boost then" is one of the dumbest arguments made in this discussion.
    so if we declare you the winner of this thread will you go away?

  19. #979
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmeebs View Post
    so if we declare you the winner of this thread will you go away?
    Sure, for the small fee of 40€, you can purchase the "shut the fuck up pass" for this thread.

  20. #980
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    You don't really understand what an "admission" is, but being so desperate to "win" you'll just claim victory for reasons.
    Hes already right, hes just trying to show you the light, despite your efforts to dig into your wrong beliefs.

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