Warcraft 3 undead campaign is just Jailor's assets fighting against eachother

[Nerovar]

Their intrinsic ties to the field were incidental to their broader portrayal and gimmick. You could genuinely remove any use of raised undead by the Legion post-WC3 and the only plotline you'd have to change in what would in Legion be 14 years of in-game time is Black Rook Hold. On no field - thematic, visual or simple plotting does Blizzard pull through with the consequences of having access to the skillset the presence of the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne imply on the Legion, and instead relegates all of these trappings solely to the Scourge. No biological warfare follows despite the implied origin of the Plague that you point out, no runeblades, no mental domination, no top-to-bottom command structure, no vast necromantic army. When the Legion does use necromancy it's on a case by case basis for flashy effect or ambient corruption. To put in a sentence what I spent paragraphs on, the reason I can't come on board with taking issue with the Legion having co-opted these powers and the consequences it would have for their portrayal is because for all intents and purposes the consequences already happened and were the status quo for the entire span of the game.

Again, most of this isn't really resolved by rerouting that power to a different cosmic force. The Legion would still have had access to many of these things (vast necromantic armies and weaponized plagues -- also runeblades used to be just enchanted weapons like Felo'melorn) through the Nathrezim except for the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne (even though it's just a soul-stealing weapon of which the Legion can make infinite amounts). What it then boils down to is whether you think Shadowlands patching up the plot hole (why the Legion only ever produced one Lich King) justifies/makes up for all of the retcons, hastily stitched together storylines and new plot holes that resulted from this decision. You can't really have one without the other.

[Super Dickmann]

Again, most of this isn't really resolved by rerouting that power to a different cosmic force. The Legion would still have had access to many of these things (vast necromantic armies and weaponized plagues -- also runeblades used to be just enchanted weapons like Felo'melorn) through the Nathrezim except for the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne (even though it's just a soul-stealing weapon of which the Legion can make infinite amounts). What it then boils down to is whether you think Shadowlands patching up the plot hole (why the Legion only ever produced one Lich King) justifies/makes up for all of the retcons, hastily stitched together storylines and new plot holes that resulted from this decision. You can't really have one without the other.

That is what I say in the latter paragraph, that it's a cost benefit analysis. Comparing Frostmourne to Felo'melorn considering one can store hundreds of souls, channel necromancy etc. and the other happens to hit very hard is a bit disingenuous, ditto the Helm of Domination allowing mental control of hypothetically endless people while empowering the wielder, which has been how it's worked at all times past WC3 itself where it's just Ner'zhul's phylactery. This is without getting into the absurd feats attributed to Apocalypse and the total absence of biological warfare in their roster. I think having it be that the Legion do not have any large-scale access to these things and the creation of the Lich King was an exceptional event that they did not do prior and could not do since covers these comparatively minor plot problems and the loss of the implied capacity they had up to this point doesn't matter because that implication never actually materialized within the narrative itself in any way. The sole retcon this requires is to offload the major necromantic capacity of the Legion onto the dreadlords, something that on any larger scale is already the case and to have this explained by way of having them be originally denizens of the Shadowlands who happened to set up in Nathreza instead of coming from Nathreza pre-corruption instead.

All other retcons from Kel'thuzad working for the Jailer despite us knowing the contrary, Sylvanas always wanting to put souls in hell despite being motivated in her own mind to raise undead and preserve her own life, the Dreadlords not just having said origin and their own agenda but also being behind anything from Sargeras being corrupted (already the case by Chronicle just on behalf of the Void, but nevermind) to your toast landing butter side down, are not required to elaborate on this point. These retcons are bad, no argument there.

The benefit of this is the possibility, beyond sorting minor capacity related problems is to continue using the Dreadlords in a TFT-style capacity as their own cabal involved in necromancy to increase their own power. The loss is something either never seen on-screen and de-emphasized over the course of a decade and a half worth of storytelling, namely the Legion as not just practictioners but originators of necromancy.

[Nerovar]

That is what I say in the latter paragraph, that it's a cost benefit analysis. Comparing Frostmourne to Felo'melorn considering one can store hundreds of souls, channel necromancy etc. and the other happens to hit very hard is a bit disingenuous

The point wasn't that Felo'melorn is equally powerful (though the reforged blade was able to go toe to toe with Frostmourne) but that both are runeblades as that term used to boil down to "unique magic sword" and wasn't tied to any specific cosmic player. At the end of the day when it comes to the creation of the Lich King, the question why there was only one seems somewhat immaterial to me as you could ask the same thing about any of the unique civilization-ending creations of the Legion like Ulthalesh or the Maw of the Damned (which devoured an entire world). You have to keep in mind that at the end of the day the Lich King's accomplishments don't really go beyond destroying a human Kingdom and carving an undead Kingdom out of Northrend which isn't much when it comes to the Legion's overall aspirations.

The benefit of this is the possibility, beyond sorting minor capacity related problems is to continue using the Dreadlords in a TFT-style capacity as their own cabal involved in necromancy to increase their own power. The loss is something either never seen on-screen and de-emphasized over the course of a decade and a half worth of storytelling, namely the Legion as not just practictioners but originators of necromancy.

I think you've sufficiently narrowed down where our disagreement comes from.

[Overlordd]

I do not buy all these headcanons.

Why would Kel'thuzad help the Dreadlords summon Archimonde into Azeroth.
Why would the dreadlords summon Archimonde?
Was the Jailer really going to rely on Malfurion beating him in combat?
Not to mention that Medivh basically saved Azeroth, how did the Jailer take knowledge of Medivh? Were it not for the Humans or the Orcs, the Night Elves wouldn't of stood a chance.
Then you have Arthas, a jailer asset, telling Illidan how to beat Tichondrius, who was also another jailer asset.

This shit doesnt make any sense at all, sorry.
Yes we can theorise about it, or create our own headcanons. But I'm simply going to say that Danuser thought he did, but he really didn't.

Honestly, it basically comes off to players that invested years, decades into this franchise "There's secretly another cosmic power outside the one you know off that controlled everything and basically, you're fucking retarded".

[justandulas]

I do not buy all these headcanons.

Why would Kel'thuzad help the Dreadlords summon Archimonde into Azeroth.
Why would the dreadlords summon Archimonde?
Was the Jailer really going to rely on Malfurion beating him in combat?
Not to mention that Medivh basically saved Azeroth, how did the Jailer take knowledge of Medivh? Were it not for the Humans or the Orcs, the Night Elves wouldn't of stood a chance.
Then you have Arthas, a jailer asset, telling Illidan how to beat Tichondrius, who was also another jailer asset.

This shit doesnt make any sense at all, sorry.
Yes we can theorise about it, or create our own headcanons. But I'm simply going to say that Danuser thought he did, but he really didn't.

Honestly, it basically comes off to players that invested years, decades into this franchise "There's secretly another cosmic power outside the one you know off that controlled everything and basically, you're fucking retarded".

It was Agatha all along!

[saixilein]

I never get why people interpret so many things in the story. WC3 Story is almost 20 years ago (fck, im so old), the team changed so much and in the end the story is just a tool to sell the game. Other authors wanna go other ways and sometimes/often its not THAT compatible with so old lore like the wc3 one. The game wouldnt sell better, if they make storylines that are "unntouchable".

beside that every, really every bigger fantasy world is filled with tons of plotholes. Doenst matter if its wrote by one Person, 10, 100 or someone who continue the old story.

You can enjoy what we get or find every (sometimes bigger or smaller) plothole. If small changes made im fine with it. Its not like they made 180° turns with characters out of nowhere.

[Super Dickmann]

The point wasn't that Felo'melorn is equally powerful (though the reforged blade was able to go toe to toe with Frostmourne) but that both are runeblades as that term used to boil down to "unique magic sword" and wasn't tied to any specific cosmic player. At the end of the day when it comes to the creation of the Lich King, the question why there was only one seems somewhat immaterial to me as you could ask the same thing about any of the unique civilization-ending creations of the Legion like Ulthalesh or the Maw of the Damned (which devoured an entire world). You have to keep in mind that at the end of the day the Lich King's accomplishments don't really go beyond destroying a human Kingdom and carving an undead Kingdom out of Northrend which isn't much when it comes to the Legion's overall aspirations.

I don't think we're helping getting anywhere when both of us go back and forth between pre-magic retcon from Chronicle and after it to search for what examples might best give fuel for the argument. Since if we apply only what's before the retcon then we just agree there's some oddities in the Legion's abilities, but everything between the two mostly holds together and didn't need changing. If we reason post-retcon when undeath is already its own thing and associated in the Legion with dreadlords, then we also end up nowhere, since then there's no contradiction between the origin of say, Apocalypse and the later Dreadlord retcon, since by then Death was its own separate school of magic and this whole conversation is moot. The Helm itself is only relevant because it went from being the vessel for Ner'zhul's soul to being this control stick for theoretically endless numbers of undead, which is itself something Wrath introduced for the sake of its own weird finale.

I've nothing to really say re: The Maw of the Damned since you're right and both it and Apocalypse have much the same problem of the whole Scourge toolkit in showing a level of capacity of the Legion that just doesn't come into play any time they're on screen. I understand where your argument is coming from, and I've many issues with much else in this expansion, but it all really just comes down to how much that implied storytelling is important to you. I imagine if Blizzard hadn't already dismantled a perfectly fine power system with Chronicle I'd agree with you, but as it stands, it's just not a plot point I put much weight in in my enjoyment of either the Scourge or the Legion.

I do not buy all these headcanons.

Why would Kel'thuzad help the Dreadlords summon Archimonde into Azeroth.
Why would the dreadlords summon Archimonde?
Was the Jailer really going to rely on Malfurion beating him in combat?
Not to mention that Medivh basically saved Azeroth, how did the Jailer take knowledge of Medivh? Were it not for the Humans or the Orcs, the Night Elves wouldn't of stood a chance.
Then you have Arthas, a jailer asset, telling Illidan how to beat Tichondrius, who was also another jailer asset.

This shit doesnt make any sense at all, sorry.
Yes we can theorise about it, or create our own headcanons. But I'm simply going to say that Danuser thought he did, but he really didn't.

Honestly, it basically comes off to players that invested years, decades into this franchise "There's secretly another cosmic power outside the one you know off that controlled everything and basically, you're fucking retarded".

That's the wage of not taking the vastly easier route of making the Dreadlords opportunists who jump on and off the Legion ship based on how it's doing in favor of making it all be a 7d plan that makes every participant into a raging retard. Medivh was already a severely socially inept tard who could have resolved the entire plot by simply not acting like a raging lunatic, so no change there, but everyone else turns into morons working counter to their own apparent interests. Not even the Blue Man, who these retcons exist to build up, looks any better because not only is what he gained out of all this impossible to parse but he was entirely subject to random chance to accomplish anything.

It's storytelling by way of brand association. If you actually focus for one minute and try and follow on this illogical chain of events you'd end up in a spot where everyone looks bad. What the writers intend is for you to see "JAILER DID LK" and tie your positive feelings of that story onto this new one.

[Overlordd]

I never get why people interpret so many things in the story. WC3 Story is almost 20 years ago (fck, im so old), the team changed so much and in the end the story is just a tool to sell the game. Other authors wanna go other ways and sometimes/often its not THAT compatible with so old lore like the wc3 one. The game wouldnt sell better, if they make storylines that are "unntouchable".

beside that every, really every bigger fantasy world is filled with tons of plotholes. Doenst matter if its wrote by one Person, 10, 100 or someone who continue the old story.

You can enjoy what we get or find every (sometimes bigger or smaller) plothole. If small changes made im fine with it. Its not like they made 180° turns with characters out of nowhere.

Great so let's rewrite LOTR and retcon the hobbit shall we?

[justandulas]

Great so let's rewrite LOTR and retcon the hobbit shall we?

retcon's are always a sign of creative bankruptcy. Always.

There isn't a single retcon that is universally loved across the medium. When i see a story retconned so long after the fact, it is a red flag that the current team is incapable of creating stories of their own so have to lean on the talent of superior writers.

[saixilein]

Great so let's rewrite LOTR and retcon the hobbit shall we?

U cant set wow and lotr on the same level. Lotr was never in charge to create tons of new content, villains, heros etc.

[Thage]

The modern story is what happens when stupid people try to write smart people. Everything happens because magic or galaxy-brain plans, because to stupid people, a smart person is indistinguishable from Gandalf and David Xanatos's love child. And because the current writers are desperate to leave their mark in the same way comic writers and editors are when they ascend from fanboy to having creative control, they parasitically attach their new ideas onto old and established plot beats to give their own more credibility. To paraphrase Ian Malcolm, "You stood on the shoulders of giants... you never stopped to think if you should, only if you could." This inevitably turns into a giant fucking mess because the retroactive continuity these expansions to the lore add on are more often than not totally irreconcilable with the established motives and inner monologues from the earlier works (case in point, Sylvanas's actions throughout BFA are in direct opposition to her internal monologues from Edge of Night​, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, and Before the Storm).

[Aresk]

The idea of an inside agent doesn't work, disregarding the many storytelling and thematic ways it completely falls apart because that's what the retcon makes the Dreadlords be already. One of the other ways this story could be better, but isn't, is if it's like someone else in the thread mentoned be something that's orchestrated on the side on behalf of the Jailer, but without him expressly running it because, what with being locked up, he can't do it. Fallibility is good and plausible.

We also have the cop-out that Kel'thuzad could be lying. That he's such a megalomaniac that he wants us to believe he saw this all along and has been doing this from the beginning to cover up the fact he's backed the losing side so many times. It would fit some of his characterization, but without delving too much into 9.1 spoilers, I can't really say how accurate that would be.

Sargeras was never planning on killing Azeroth (as we've seen there are far easier ways to kill a planet that far weaker forces have used in the setting than trying to invade it half a dozen times in 10,000 years)? His plan was to either break it to his will like Argus and further power up the legion, or more likely absorb its power into his own since in his mind he would have effectively won the setting at that point. The stab only happened as a last act of desperation/spite as Sargeras honestly believes it's inevitable world souls will be tainted by the void lords if he doesn't get to them first.

Where was it stated that Sargeras' goals were anything other than destroying Azeroth? Originally (during the RTS days) the Burning Legion wanted to drain magic, but when they got retconned to wanting to purge the universe of all life, we know that Sargeras openly destroyed worlds with old god infestations. We also know the Burning Legion has destroyed countless worlds, and that the Burning Legion utilizes invasions. Whether there are "far easier" ways to destroy a world is immaterial if the Burning Legion doesn't employ those tactics. I could not find any evidence in Chronicle regarding Sargeras' wanting Azeroth for absorbing its power (which seems counter to his motivation given the old god infestation), and Argus had no old god presence that we know of, which makes sense as to why he would be willing to subjugate that world in the interim (though presumably he'd still kill Argus at some point once he was done using it as demon fuel). Everything I've read recently suggests he wants to kill Azeroth before she awakens as a void champion, though if I'm missing something, I'd welcome an opportunity to be informed about it.

Without directly addressing your following points
~If Ner'zhul, Arthas and Bolvar were all secretly opposing the jailer the whole time why did they never bother to mention him (at the very least to the DKs)? On the other hand they all went to great lengths to talk about crushing the legion.

Except neither Arthas nor Ner'zhul went to great lengths talking about crushing the Legion, to the point the plan is only mentioned in a novel and never disclosed to the factions in game. As far as our characters are aware, Arthas' goal in Icecrown was just world domination. While Bolvar does discuss this during Legion, he wasn't even willing to talk to the DKs about his plan regarding Sylvanas, as disclosed in Brook's short story. And if he had, he wouldn't have known the details. His knowledge of the Jailer was summarized by him as this:

Highlord Bolvar Fordragon says: I could sense a dark presence at the edge of my consciousness. Not Arthas... not Ner'zhul. Something... else.
Highlord Bolvar Fordragon says: It is that very presence I sense lurking beyond the shattered sky above.

What was he going to tell others? "There's a dark presence behind the helm. With this knowledge, know that...I will continue to wear the helm and keep it in check." Up until the veil was shattered, there wasn't really anything to be done about it beyond what we know he was already willing to do: be the Jailer of the Damned.

~This whole shitshow is veering dangerously close to 'redeeming' Arthas as well, since now apparently he didn't want to destroy all life just to fight the legion and take over the universe with the undead but also apparently was seeking to protect everybody's immortal souls.

I think an Arthas redemption arc is a valid concern, though personally, I don't see how defying the Jailer gives him any redemption quality, since it still places his actions squarely on him. "I was going to murder everyone and raise an undead army over which I would be a sole tyrant, but hey, I stopped someone else from murdering everyone for their own aims, so that makes my plans to kill you better, right?" I view his defiance of the Jailer akin to his opposition of the Legion: sure, that's good, but that doesn't make the means by which you're attempting to accomplish this excusable.

~Why is sylvanas working for the jailer if he's the actual cause of the scourge that destroyed her people, her life and her homeland? This is really on the level of 'no Kael, you are the demons'. (inb4 last-second redemptive betrayal that goth dead elf mummy waifu was 'planning all along')

While you're welcome to disagree, I think Cata Sylv's characterization of "I don't want to be tortured for all eternity in Hell" is still a compelling reason to work with someone, particularly when we already know she's willing to throw any and everyone to the wolves if it makes things better for her. This may also be further addressed in the upcoming novel.

~As you and super dickman have pointed out this completely destroys KT's character basically entirely. Unless someone wants to argue he was a double double secret reverse deep-cover agent.

We're in agreement here.

Seriously the jailer's plan would have made much more sense if instead of relying on all this 'just as kekku' nonsense he just opportunistically used the shitshow the legion created to convince sylvanas to do his bidding.

I don't really follow what you're saying here, in particular the "just as kekku" portion.

I do not buy all these headcanons.

Why would Kel'thuzad help the Dreadlords summon Archimonde into Azeroth.

There are two ways to approach this. Accepting that Kel'thuzad was working with the Jailer from the beginning, then of course he'd help the Dreadlords as other Jailer agents. If you don't buy KT was a Jailer pawn, then he was loyal to Ner'zhul, and if he didn't help, the Dreadlords would have destroyed his master. Regardless of the approach, you get the same result that KT would help the Dreadlords.

Why would the dreadlords summon Archimonde?

Because they were working for the Legion at the time, and that's what the Legion tasked them with.

Was the Jailer really going to rely on Malfurion beating him in combat?

We do not have this information at present.

Not to mention that Medivh basically saved Azeroth, how did the Jailer take knowledge of Medivh? Were it not for the Humans or the Orcs, the Night Elves wouldn't of stood a chance.

We do not know if the Jailer knew of Medivh or, if he did, how he gained that information. I could conjecture here, but I don't think you're interested in conjecture.

Then you have Arthas, a jailer asset, telling Illidan how to beat Tichondrius, who was also another jailer asset.

Arthas wasn't a Jailer asset. Arthas was a Lich King asset. The Lich King was not doing as the Jailer wanted. This is the most sensibly explained part of your questions given what we know of the Jailer lore (see my previous comments in the thread regarding Ner'zhul being a failure from the Jailer's perspective).

[draugril]

Reminds me:

[Giannis-GR]

I do not buy all these headcanons.

Why would Kel'thuzad help the Dreadlords summon Archimonde into Azeroth.
Why would the dreadlords summon Archimonde?
Was the Jailer really going to rely on Malfurion beating him in combat?
Not to mention that Medivh basically saved Azeroth, how did the Jailer take knowledge of Medivh? Were it not for the Humans or the Orcs, the Night Elves wouldn't of stood a chance.
Then you have Arthas, a jailer asset, telling Illidan how to beat Tichondrius, who was also another jailer asset.

This shit doesnt make any sense at all, sorry.
Yes we can theorise about it, or create our own headcanons. But I'm simply going to say that Danuser thought he did, but he really didn't.

Honestly, it basically comes off to players that invested years, decades into this franchise "There's secretly another cosmic power outside the one you know off that controlled everything and basically, you're fucking retarded".

This post sums it up. And you could write an essay about it.

The Jailer's 4D_Chess isn't "complicated" or even simply "retcon".

It's the most ABSURD lore introduction in the history of fiction...

You have literally multiple ARCHENEMIES, whose whole purpose in life over decades, even thousands of years, was to fight one another...

and simply in 2020 we learn "all these were 8D_Chess and were really secretly allies, paws of the Big Bad Blue Nerd"...

Embarrassing, lazy... and really disrespectful to old WoW lore creators, who crafted a story over decades only to watch it become a dumpster fire..

[MikeBogina]

This is the problem with a lot of people, like Bellular pushing ideas that the Lich King has always been a pawn of the Jailer, when that's not the case.

Ner'zhul and Arthas never served the Jailer and pushing this headcanon is stupid, because why would they all fight each other? Ner'zhul turning on the Legion is probably not what the Jailer wanted to happen and Mal'ganis trying to secretly build an army of corrupt paladin's who's soul purpose was to kill Lich King Arthas kinda indicates that Arthas wasn't aligned with the Jailer either. He saw himself as a god with no master.

[Aleksej89]

holy fkkkkk guys the amount of effort spent in this thread is far more than blizzard story department did since BFA alpha.

its great that you love talking about this stuff but as far as "official" stuff goes its obvious blizzard does not give a sh*t and is letting Daloser mutilate lore regardless of how much it does not match with any of the previous lore.

i would be surprised if daloser actually knew any of the story from war1/2/3 and the previous WoW expansions.
Actually it seems he is deliberately keeping himself uninformed so he can cause as much damage as possible to the overall story continuity.

[Nerovar]

I do not buy all these headcanons.

Why would Kel'thuzad help the Dreadlords summon Archimonde into Azeroth.
Why would the dreadlords summon Archimonde?
Was the Jailer really going to rely on Malfurion beating him in combat?
Not to mention that Medivh basically saved Azeroth, how did the Jailer take knowledge of Medivh? Were it not for the Humans or the Orcs, the Night Elves wouldn't of stood a chance.
Then you have Arthas, a jailer asset, telling Illidan how to beat Tichondrius, who was also another jailer asset.

This shit doesnt make any sense at all, sorry.
Yes we can theorise about it, or create our own headcanons. But I'm simply going to say that Danuser thought he did, but he really didn't.

Honestly, it basically comes off to players that invested years, decades into this franchise "There's secretly another cosmic power outside the one you know off that controlled everything and basically, you're fucking retarded".

This is a good write-up.

[cparle87]

In WC3 you also have Varimathras being afraid to die and begged Sylvanas to join her, yet in Legion we find out that demons return to the Twisting Nether after dying like his brothers did. So why would Varimathras have been that afraid then? Better not to think about such things and pretend that each game and expansion is just in an universe of its own. I also have to forget that the latest seasons of Game of Thrones happened for me to enjoy the older seasons. As far as I'm aware the show died with Tywin Lannister.

Um, did you SEE what happened to him in Antorus when he returned in failure from such an important mission? I'd beg and plead not to get sent to that.

[shoc]

The modern story is what happens when stupid people try to write smart people. Everything happens because magic or galaxy-brain plans, because to stupid people, a smart person is indistinguishable from Gandalf and David Xanatos's love child. And because the current writers are desperate to leave their mark in the same way comic writers and editors are when they ascend from fanboy to having creative control, they parasitically attach their new ideas onto old and established plot beats to give their own more credibility. To paraphrase Ian Malcolm, "You stood on the shoulders of giants... you never stopped to think if you should, only if you could." This inevitably turns into a giant fucking mess because the retroactive continuity these expansions to the lore add on are more often than not totally irreconcilable with the established motives and inner monologues from the earlier works (case in point, Sylvanas's actions throughout BFA are in direct opposition to her internal monologues from Edge of Night​, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, and Before the Storm).

Sums it up perfectly, and why WoW lore post-Cataclysm reads like bad fan fiction than good plot.

[Ivarr]

holy fkkkkk guys the amount of effort spent in this thread is far more than blizzard story department did since BFA alpha.

Blizzard's lore team is laughing their ass off at all these people pointing out the inconsistencies and all the people contorting themselves in an attempt to make it work.